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  • Nat Hentoff on Obama

    Hey guys, here's an article that I was reading and I was wondering what you would think of it :

    (How do we post the article in quote ?)

    Thought ?

  • #2
    Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

    . An example is ObamaCare, which is now embattled in the Senate. If that goes through the way Obama wants, we will have something very much like the British system. If the American people have their health care paid for by the government, depending on their age and their condition, they will be subject to a health commission just like in England which will decide if their lives are worth living much longer.
    The above shows that the guy does not know what he is talking about. Maybe when the interview was done it was a little more accurate. But at no time has the health care reform bills looked like what Obama campaigned for. The public option was never a realistic part of the Senate bill.

    Everybody I have listened to has said the Senate bill looks more like Germany than GB system.

    So the guy is an idiot and doesn't understand much of anything.

    He doesn't like Obama, which is fine. But he doesn't have many facts, just imagined fears. But that does make him like the average American.
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

      Well, to not agree with what he said is one thing. Saying he's an idiot is another. I was expecting something more than, he's an idiot, he don't know what he's talking about because you heard that the reform will be more like the German system than the UK system, to be honest.

      You say that guy is an idiot and does'nt understand much of anything. hmmm ... Does that mean that we or he cannot bring a critic point of view without being an idiot ? Is being critics a sign of idioty ?

      And a contrario, do you think everything Obama's doing is always right ? Is it allowed to critic Obama anyway ?

      I've take a look at the Wiki of Hentoff, and I've found his curriculum Vitae interresting, he won a cupple of prizes that an idiot would find hard to get. And it looks like even papers like Washington Post does'nt think he is an idiot.

      I don't want to say your an idiot but give me something more than that, I'm sure you can.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Hentoff

      If this is the average american ... : Awards and honors

      "In 1972 Hentoff was named a Guggenheim Fellow.[3] He was awarded the American Bar Association's Silver Gavel Award in 1980 for his columns on law and criminal justice. In 1985 he was awarded an honorary Doctorate of Laws by Northeastern University.[4] In 1995 Hentoff was given the National Press Foundation's Award for lifetime distinguished contributions to journalism.[5] In 2004 Hentoff was named one of six NEA Jazz Masters by the US National Endowment for the Arts, the first non-musician to win this award. That same year, the Boston Latin School honored him as alumnus of the year. In October 2005, Hentoff was honored by the Human Life Foundation at their third annual Great Defender of Life dinner."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

        JW: Is the so-called health commission that you referred to earlier what some people are referring to as death panels? Is that too strong a word?

        NH: That term was used with hyperbole about the parts of the health care bill where doctors are mandated, if people are on Medicare and of a certain age or in serious physical condition, to counsel them on their end-of-life alternatives. I don't believe that was a death panel. It was done to get the Medicare doctors to not spend too much money on them. The death panel issue arose with Tom Daschle, who was originally going to be the Health Czar. Daschle became enamored with the British system and wrote a book about health care, which influenced President Obama.

        In England, you have what I would call government-imposed euthanasia. Under the British healthcare system, there is a commission that decides whether or not, based on your age and physical condition, the government should continue to pay for your health. That leads to the government not doing it and you gradually or suddenly die. The present Stimulus Bill sets up the equivalent commission in the United States similar to that which is in England. The tipoff was months ago on the ABC network. President Obama was given a full hour to describe and endorse his health plan. A woman in the audience asked Obama about her mother. Her mother was, I believe, 101 years old and was in need of a certain kind of procedure. Her doctor didn't want to do it because of her age. However, another doctor did and told this woman there is a joy of life in this person. The woman asked President Obama how he would deal with this sort of thing, and Obama said we cannot consider the joy of life in this situation. He said I would advise her to take a pain killer. That is the essence of the President of the United States.
        This guy is an idiot, if he used to be a great writer he has lost his edge.

        First, the example from the town hall of the 101 year old. It wrenches the heartstrings to think of such a thing but: Only those with insurance now would be eligible for coverage for that treatment now and be able to afford it, there is nothing in the reform that would disallow a private insurer to continue offering that example, and most people now can't get a pacemaker at 101 much less survive to that age to start with.

        It was such a ridiculous example as there will always be some random case that is not covered, while currently there are a lot of cases that are not covered. If the example was a 55 year old who was not insured and not eligible for medicaid or medicare and they couldn't get a pacemaker, but would under the public option then it looks great instead. This guy simply uses that one extreme example to promote the fear that everyone gets shorted. Lack of care isn't euthanasia or Hentoff would be up in arms about how private care currently doesn't cover situations like that and people die more that they would under the reformed care.

        Second, he is comparing a discussion about end of life care that is voluntarily requested by the patient to what insurance companies currently do: determine cost to loss. The end of life discussion is about types of care, Obama's comment was about considering alternatives and hentoff is trying to make that comparable to actively killing someone outright.

        His opinion sucks because it uses misleading conclusions, and the interview smacks of fear mongering.
        |TG-6th|Snooggums

        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

          Originally posted by Kossst View Post
          Well, to not agree with what he said is one thing. Saying he's an idiot is another. I was expecting something more than, he's an idiot, he don't know what he's talking about because you heard that the reform will be more like the German system than the UK system, to be honest.
          If he can't even get very basic facts correct then he is an idiot.

          GB has a single payer system. When has the senate bill ever tried to create a single payer system?

          The guy is an idiot or is lying. He claims to avoid hyperbole but in the end does nothing but spew the stuff.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

            Originally posted by snooggums View Post
            His opinion sucks because it uses misleading conclusions, and the interview smacks of fear mongering.
            I will not answer about the healthcare reform bill because it is not something that I know very well. All I can say is if you think his conclusions are wrong on this specific issue does'nt make him wrong all the way. I've found some very interresting point in what he said. I'd liked to get some of your thoughts other than he's an idiot. But it seems like there is nothing to critic in the Obama's administration and if someone do so he is fear mongering. That's weird.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

              Originally posted by Kossst View Post
              I will not answer about the healthcare reform bill because it is not something that I know very well. All I can say is if you think his conclusions are wrong on this specific issue does'nt make him wrong all the way. I've found some very interresting point in what he said. I'd liked to get some of your thoughts other than he's an idiot. But it seems like there is nothing to critic in the Obama's administration and if someone do so he is fear mongering. That's weird.
              You are stretching our reaction to the few extremists views who get posted (because those that start threads about opposition to a popular person tend to pick those with the loudest or most critical views) to unrelated topics.

              I'll criticize Obama for you:

              Obama has dragged his feet on campaign promises or even turned some around. While this is an expected part of politics most of them were the ones that I agreed with and are things he could do with an organized party or unilaterally like getting rid of don't as don't tell.

              Obama is also failing to get the parts of the health care reform through that would actually reform health care. Getting rid of pre-existing clauses and denial of coverage when the person maintains payment should be an unfunded mandate on insurers and would be [I]insurance reform[/I as those are anti-competitive insurance practices. His party has enough control to get anything they want through right now, he needs to get on party leadership to get things organized on the topics that would actually improve health care itself. Additionally, if his reform doesn't provide coverage to everyone who need health care (ie everyone) then it isn't effective reform.

              Obama also needs to do a better job of getting our forces out of Afghanistan instead of increasing our presence. While it is important to fight terrorism, it is more important to not kill innocent civilians overseas just so we might not have another attack on our own soil. The forces that should remain in Afghanistan should be part of an overall UN force, we should not have separate interests. We shouldn't be isolationist, be we don't need to be imperialistic either.

              Hentoff had not original insights and most of the ones he offered were either misleading or outright wrong. He also considers Obama to be super dangerous because of his interitence of the previous administrations' self imposed powers. If his criticisms were accurate and weren't hyperbole then I wouldn't call him an idiot.
              |TG-6th|Snooggums

              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                I have great respect for Nat Hentoff and his civil libertarian work and writing about jazz. I even used some of his writings for my English classes during college. However, he has over the years become more and more right-wing even though he is described as a libertarian. There is nothing wrong with being conservative or liberal but I think when it is pushed to the fringe it becomes problematic. Hentoff used to write for Jewish World Review and I used to read his column all the time. He would write about a lot of the topics mentioned in this interview including his pro-life stance and goverment abuses of power during the Bush era. One column however really irked me. It was a full throated defense of the Swift Boat Veterans for truth and their allegations against John Kerry. When I read this column, I kept thinking if you have a problem with Kerry's politics just say that. Some of these allegations were demonstrably false. I am referring in particular to the bronze and silver awards. The purple hearts can be debated. Hentoff now writes for World Net Daily which is very right-wing. They are one of the big promoters of the birther movement. One of blogs that I regularly read refer to this site as World Nut Daily.
                "Press the red shiny button"~Vortex
                "I may give out, but I'll never give in." ~ Lou Bond "To the Establishment"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                  Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                  You are stretching our reaction to the few extremists views who get posted (because those that start threads about opposition to a popular person tend to pick those with the loudest or most critical views) to unrelated topics.

                  I'll criticize Obama for you:

                  Obama has dragged his feet on campaign promises or even turned some around. While this is an expected part of politics most of them were the ones that I agreed with and are things he could do with an organized party or unilaterally like getting rid of don't as don't tell.

                  Obama is also failing to get the parts of the health care reform through that would actually reform health care. Getting rid of pre-existing clauses and denial of coverage when the person maintains payment should be an unfunded mandate on insurers and would be [I]insurance reform[/I as those are anti-competitive insurance practices. His party has enough control to get anything they want through right now, he needs to get on party leadership to get things organized on the topics that would actually improve health care itself. Additionally, if his reform doesn't provide coverage to everyone who need health care (ie everyone) then it isn't effective reform.

                  Obama also needs to do a better job of getting our forces out of Afghanistan instead of increasing our presence. While it is important to fight terrorism, it is more important to not kill innocent civilians overseas just so we might not have another attack on our own soil. The forces that should remain in Afghanistan should be part of an overall UN force, we should not have separate interests. We shouldn't be isolationist, be we don't need to be imperialistic either.

                  Hentoff had not original insights and most of the ones he offered were either misleading or outright wrong. He also considers Obama to be super dangerous because of his interitence of the previous administrations' self imposed powers. If his criticisms were accurate and weren't hyperbole then I wouldn't call him an idiot.
                  Hentoff has left me the impression of a person who provokes controversial debate of ideas. I agree that a decision maker must not pour into the extremes. The Marketplace is a different thing. Man through his speech raises questions about thorny issues as the adjudicator can deal only if there is a critical mass is observed. The critical mass can only arise when the debate is raised.

                  I agree with you when you say the trend could be to select people with controversial opinions but at the same time if the opinions shared do not shock, there is no debate.

                  I'm not mad that you have taken a contrary view to that expressed by Hentoff, but "to say it is idiotic" left me on my hunger. People generally are not idiots, opinions, point of views may be if they are debate.

                  Finally, fear mongering has nothing to do with speaking frankly and shaking ideas.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                    Originally posted by ArmoredBear View Post
                    I have great respect for Nat Hentoff and his civil libertarian work and writing about jazz. I even used some of his writings for my English classes during college. However, he has over the years become more and more right-wing even though he is described as a libertarian. There is nothing wrong with being conservative or liberal but I think when it is pushed to the fringe it becomes problematic. Hentoff used to write for Jewish World Review and I used to read his column all the time. He would write about a lot of the topics mentioned in this interview including his pro-life stance and goverment abuses of power during the Bush era. One column however really irked me. It was a full throated defense of the Swift Boat Veterans for truth and their allegations against John Kerry. When I read this column, I kept thinking if you have a problem with Kerry's politics just say that. Some of these allegations were demonstrably false. I am referring in particular to the bronze and silver awards. The purple hearts can be debated. Hentoff now writes for World Net Daily which is very right-wing. They are one of the big promoters of the birther movement. One of blogs that I regularly read refer to this site as World Nut Daily.
                    Thanks Armor, that is something helpfull to get a better angle on the picture.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                      Originally posted by ArmoredBear View Post
                      However, he has over the years become more and more right-wing even though he is described as a libertarian.

                      He would write about a lot of the topics mentioned in this interview including his pro-life stance and goverment abuses of power during the Bush era.
                      I find the idea of someone calling themselves a Libertarian being on the "pro-life" bandwagon pretty hilarious.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                        Originally posted by Kossst View Post
                        I will not answer about the healthcare reform bill because it is not something that I know very well. All I can say is if you think his conclusions are wrong on this specific issue does'nt make him wrong all the way. I've found some very interresting point in what he said. I'd liked to get some of your thoughts other than he's an idiot. But it seems like there is nothing to critic in the Obama's administration and if someone do so he is fear mongering. That's weird.
                        The issue is that the "interesting point"s that he is raising are patently false. The quote Gringo posted exemplifies the problem. Nothing is heading towards a system like GB's, and nothing has been heading that way. He is picking arguments that can be safely tied to a not very bright group of conservatives and talking about them like they are real concerns. There may or may not be merit in a single payer system like in the UK, but it is stupid to say there isn't so Obama's policy is stupid, 'Obama's plan' is unrelated.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                          Well, it seems like the healthcare plan is raising alots of concern here. I was not expecting that. What drew my attention was much more when he spoke of the gradual intrusion of government into the lives of Americans, which in my opinion, hurts the relationship between duality offers freedom and security. This is what caught my attention.

                          Moreover, I never thought that the movement Tea Party, and even that Hentoff was the on extreme right. This is one reason why I enjoyed the post Bear and it surprised me.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                            Originally posted by Kossst View Post
                            Well, it seems like the healthcare plan is raising alots of concern here.
                            Right. But the first thing Hentoff actually said about Obama's healthcare was:
                            If that goes through the way Obama wants
                            Wich means to me, in its original form. So when everyone started calling him an idiot I don't think they took that into consideration. Needless to say, it was a very general and vague reference he made though, with not much substance.

                            Hentoff has been writing for years, some of his civil liberties stuff was ok and I could agree with him. But, in 2003 he was one of those saber rattling pro-Iraq-invasion nuts that helped the neo-cons achieve their dream of invading Iraq through disinformation and not properly holding the Bush administration acountable. Why? I can only assume because of his pro-Israel belief system. And that was a major problem leading up to the Iraq war was that all the pro-Israel groups were pushing for invasion and supporting the Bush policies. The main culprit was AIPAC among others including pro-Isreal neo-cons. Now, Israel may have been a strategic ally during the Cold War in the Middle East but they are a HUGE, and expensive LIABILITY at this point. Its become political suicide to speak against Israeli policy in Washington and AIPAC is the biggest and most powerful lobby in the Beltway. The United States has blood on their hands every time the Israeli goverment acts with violence and impunity against the Palestinians due to our continuous support. Its time that we stop supporting the goverment of Israel. Some will argue that they are the only democracy in the Middle East, therefore we have to support them. But simply being a Democracy does not automatically make you righteous and free from goverment coercion. Another thing thats seems ironic to me is the Israeli West Bank barrier wall that the Israeli goverment constructed that in reality holds the Palestinians as prisoners. It is strangely reminiscent of the way the Nazis built walls around the Jews in WW2 to keep them in the ghettos. Guys like Hentoff seem to be principled and moral at times in their writing until your talking about something that the Israeli goverment wants, then its just blind support. To be quite honest, I have about as much distaste for the Israeli goverment and their policies as I do for Hamas. Sorry if this was a bit off topic.
                            |TG-X| mp40x



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                            • #15
                              Re: Nat Hentoff on Obama

                              Originally posted by TheFeniX View Post
                              I find the idea of someone calling themselves a Libertarian being on the "pro-life" bandwagon pretty hilarious.
                              http://www.tacticalgamer.com/sandbox...ml#post1417534
                              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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