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  • The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

    I wonder if they'll make this one into a CBS 'NCIS' episode.

    http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368

    Two years later, the U.S. Naval Criminal Investigative Service, which has primary investigative jurisdiction within the naval base, issued a report supporting the account originally advanced by Harris, now a vice-admiral in command of the Sixth Fleet. The Pentagon declined to make the NCIS report public, and only when pressed with Freedom of Information Act demands did it disclose parts of the report, some 1,700 pages of documents so heavily redacted as to be nearly incomprehensible. The NCIS report was carefully cross-referenced and deciphered by students and faculty at the law school of Seton Hall University in New Jersey, and their findings, released in November 2009, made clear why the Pentagon had been unwilling to make its conclusions public. The official story of the prisoners’ deaths was full of unacknowledged contradictions, and the centerpiece of the report—a reconstruction of the events—was simply unbelievable.

  • #2
    Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

    At least they didn't have their heads cut off in front of a video camera and then have the video put on the internet. Or have their bodies which were either riddled with bullets or burnt like charcoal hung from bridges for everyone to see.
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    • #3
      Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

      Originally posted by Delta*RandyShugart* View Post
      At least they didn't have their heads cut off in front of a video camera and then have the video put on the internet. Or have their bodies which were either riddled with bullets or burnt like charcoal hung from bridges for everyone to see.
      Stabbing someone is not better than shooting them if they are still dead.

      Most of the Guantanamo incarcerations were either wrongly associated people, people who didn't do anything yet and that is why they are avoiding trial. Just because a few people did horrible things doesn't mean it is ok to torture and abuse random people.

      I find your post extremely offensive.
      |TG-6th|Snooggums

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      • #4
        Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

        Originally posted by snooggums View Post
        Stabbing someone is not better than shooting them if they are still dead.

        Most of the Guantanamo incarcerations were either wrongly associated people, people who didn't do anything yet and that is why they are avoiding trial. Just because a few people did horrible things doesn't mean it is ok to torture and abuse random people.

        I find your post extremely offensive.
        Two wrongs don't make a right, but I see what Delta's saying. Snooggums, I suggest you go watch the Nick Berg video to remind you what REAL brutality is, and what we're fighting for. Our so called torture pales in comparison to what the enemies do to us.
        "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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        • #5
          Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

          I personally feel that there are more detainee's at Getmo that really are guilty than you think. Dont let the media or anyone else lie to you about it. I know first hand that several IED makers and Snipers from Iraq that my company detained have been sent to Getmo. and to say that they are innocent is shocking. Yes. There are always acceptions to the rule, however, the process by which detainees are taken and processed in the Army is very very regimented and watched. You have to have several witness statements, if anything in either statement contradicts what the others say they throw it out. Trust me, most of the people that have actually made it as far as Getmo are either guilty or the entire arresting unit is involved in the act of framing them. the latter is hard to believe because that would involve colonels and sergeant majors.

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          • #6
            Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

            Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
            Two wrongs don't make a right, but I see what Delta's saying. Snooggums, I suggest you go watch the Nick Berg video to remind you what REAL brutality is, and what we're fighting for. Our so called torture pales in comparison to what the enemies do to us.
            My point is 'more wrong' isn't relevant.

            Originally posted by Dredge
            I know first hand that several IED makers and Snipers from Iraq that my company detained have been sent to Getmo. and to say that they are innocent is shocking.
            If they catch our soldiers who kill and main them and then torture them it is wrong.

            For both of you: As a nation that stands on the principle of a fair trial, the torture and indefinite housing of 'war criminals' is a violation of the laws of the land. Just because the Executive Branch isn't following through with the Judicial Branch's order to send them to trial or release them doesn't mean the Executive Branch isn't violating the Constitution.

            There have been plenty of people who were released because they had no reason to be held other than 'suspicion'. The US can't do that to citizens, and there is nothing the the constitution that says that non-citizens are an exception.

            Even if we were Cuba or North Korea, torturing the enemy less than they torture us doesn't make it better.
            |TG-6th|Snooggums

            Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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            • #7
              Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

              And where did you get your facts about how many "innocent" people are in there? I have a tough time believing what I hear in the media, or out of the mouths of Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore, etc. I think Dredge is right. There's a whole lot more oversight than the media would have you believe. Most people are in there for a legitimate reason.
              "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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              • #8
                Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                And where did you get your facts about how many "innocent" people are in there? I have a tough time believing what I hear in the media, or out of the mouths of Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore, etc. I think Dredge is right. There's a whole lot more oversight than the media would have you believe. Most people are in there for a legitimate reason.
                Where are your proof that most of the people are there for legitimate reasons ? You have nothing to support this claim since the gouvernment itself can't find evidence to run a trial. Do you know what's the Habeas Corpus ? ...

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                • #9
                  Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                  Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                  . Our so called torture pales in comparison to what the enemies do to us.
                  Oh? So, the absolute worst we do isn't as bad as the worst they do, and...this means what? Compare innocents killed or driven out of their homes and we're sadly far, far ahead of them. As for videos: how exactly does being filmed dying make your death any worse? You're still...dead.

                  Trust me, most of the people that have actually made it as far as Getmo are either guilty or the entire arresting unit is involved in the act of framing them. the latter is hard to believe because that would involve colonels and sergeant majors.
                  Yep, no examples of authoritarian abuses by the military involving high-ranking officers. Never.
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                  • #10
                    Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                    I think it's more about lack of due process than about who is or isn't innocent.
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                    • #11
                      Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                      While I believe that getting your head sawed off is worse than being shot to death, I don't think it matters here.

                      We're better than them. We're the good guys. We don't do that crap.
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                      • #12
                        Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                        Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                        And where did you get your facts about how many "innocent" people are in there? I have a tough time believing what I hear in the media, or out of the mouths of Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore, etc. I think Dredge is right. There's a whole lot more oversight than the media would have you believe. Most people are in there for a legitimate reason.
                        I never said they were 'innocent' so your question cannot be answered directly. I've already stated that the majority are incorrectly detained, and compared it to regular POWs. The lack of information and the government's reluctance to prosecute a case against them is what leads me to believe they are not correctly detained.

                        You should instead question the government's excuses for not prosecuting the detainees.
                        |TG-6th|Snooggums

                        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                          Guantanamo Bay is a shameful embarrassment to the United States and should be closed down immediately. Those that are detained there should be placed on trial, if found guilty imprisoned, if found not guilty released to their native countries. The fact that this despicable place is still open only further illustrates the loss of adherence to the Constitution and the rule of law by the U.S. goverment, something that is probably lost forever at this point.
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                          • #14
                            Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                            Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                            Stabbing someone is not better than shooting them if they are still dead.

                            Most of the Guantanamo incarcerations were either wrongly associated people, people who didn't do anything yet and that is why they are avoiding trial. Just because a few people did horrible things doesn't mean it is ok to torture and abuse random people.

                            I find your post extremely offensive.
                            +1

                            & whether they're guilty of anything or not doesn't matter, nothing can justify such actions.

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Guantanamo 'Suicides'

                              Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                              I've already stated that the majority are incorrectly detained, and compared it to regular POWs.
                              What? No you didn't. Regular POWs are, generally speaking, never charged with or prosecuted for anything at all. But they aren't "incorrectly detained" either. They are detained quite rightly until, under normal circumstances, the conflict in question is over.

                              The problem now is that we have no efficient way of defining an end to the conflict in question. It seems fully capable of running for generations. So normal procedures are kind of inadequate for the current circumstances, and we're going to be confused until we can develop a new set of "normal" procedures to replace them. But charging enemy combatants as common criminals in court is not an efficient replacement system.

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