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  • Why not a terrorist?

    I haven't heard once the word terrorist when referring to the guy that crashed into the IRS building. Except to say he was not a terrorist.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586581,00.html

    Why not?
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

  • #2
    Re: Why not a terrorist?

    Because he was just angry at the IRS and overreacted, but was not trying to 'send a message'.

    Acting to inspire fear is terrorism, ie the Oklahoma City Bombing, 9/11, .
    Killing a lot of people because you are angry, ie the Virginia Tech guy, is just isolated violence and not terrorism.

    Like the Virginia Tech guy the threat ends with the guys death. That doesn't inspire terror.
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Why not a terrorist?

      Has there ever been a agreed upon, concrete definition for what a "terrorist" is? Or at least the one our gov't is using? It's an incredibly slippery slope to throw around the word "terrorist" or "domestic terrorist" when it can be applied so broadly.
      Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
      Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Why not a terrorist?

        Originally posted by aeroripper View Post
        Has there ever been a agreed upon, concrete definition for what a "terrorist" is?
        Yes, it is in the dictionary.
        |TG-6th|Snooggums

        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Why not a terrorist?

          Originally posted by snooggums View Post
          Yes, it is in the dictionary.
          Oh... fancy that.

          Main Entry: ter∑ror∑ism
          Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
          Function: noun
          Date: 1795

          : the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
          So a person who uses terrorism to achieve a demand. He wouldn't really qualify, under this definition.
          Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
          Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

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          • #6
            Re: Why not a terrorist?

            Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
            I haven't heard once the word terrorist when referring to the guy that crashed into the IRS building. Except to say he was not a terrorist.
            I don't think the word terrorist is applicable to this situation. The guy just snapped, thats all. Is he a murdering coward? Yes. Are the IRS a militarized government agency of blood-sucking-maggots with arbitrary power? Yes. I would assume that we will see more of this type of thing in the future as the decline of the American way of life -wich is far to lavish, exploitive, and wasteful I might add- continues to deteriorate. The last thing you need is to be harrased by the IRS when the rest of your life is collapsing around you. This in no way justifies what this guy did of course. But, the IRS has for far to long been a government agency that smothers and drives people to the breaking point, as there is little chance of winning against them once you draw their ire. The whole thing is just sad for everyone involved, especially the innocent people in the building.
            |TG-X| mp40x



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            • #7
              Re: Why not a terrorist?

              My first thought when I heard the story about the online manefesto, the burning of the residence and the targeting of the government building was the movie Arlington Road.

              If you haven't seen the movie I won't spoil the ending, but you won't get the reference if you don't know how the movie ends.
              |TG-6th|Snooggums

              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Why not a terrorist?

                Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                Because he was just angry at the IRS and overreacted, but was not trying to 'send a message'.

                Acting to inspire fear is terrorism, ie the Oklahoma City Bombing, 9/11, .
                Killing a lot of people because you are angry, ie the Virginia Tech guy, is just isolated violence and not terrorism.

                Like the Virginia Tech guy the threat ends with the guys death. That doesn't inspire terror.
                Well, there is no real evidence either way what McVeigh was trying to accomplish. Ties to militant groups where shaky. He seemed to be mad about Ruby Ridge more than anything. Tired of the government messing with gun rights and angry about taxes. He never seemed to believe his actions would actually change anything. He just seemed to be lashing out at the government and the ATF in particular.

                How is that different than this guy just ticked off because the government kept messing with his money and lashing out at the IRS?

                (I am not saying that he should be called a terrorist. I just want to know why it seams to be so clear to most that he isn't.)
                Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Why not a terrorist?

                  Flying an airplane into a building a la 9/11 is definitely "sending a message". By definition if the IRS acts differently in any way because of this incident Stack is a terrorist.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Why not a terrorist?

                    Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                    Well, there is no real evidence either way what McVeigh was trying to accomplish. Ties to militant groups where shaky. He seemed to be mad about Ruby Ridge more than anything. Tired of the government messing with gun rights and angry about taxes. He never seemed to believe his actions would actually change anything. He just seemed to be lashing out at the government and the ATF in particular.

                    How is that different than this guy just ticked off because the government kept messing with his money and lashing out at the IRS?

                    (I am not saying that he should be called a terrorist. I just want to know why it seams to be so clear to most that he isn't.)
                    McVay worked with others, spoke openly about revolt and didn't kill himself in the act. Sparks did the opposite, he martyred himself.

                    I don't know why you are questioning the OK City bombing as an act of terrorism, he was clearly a terrorist.The comments about not intending to kill the daycare kids was because he wanted to send a message to the government, not just kill people because he was really angry. McVay was a terrorist.

                    @Hamberlger: If the 'definition' means that people do something different as a result then everything that anyone does at any time is terrorism. That type of argument isn't worth addressing because it is illogical.
                    |TG-6th|Snooggums

                    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Why not a terrorist?

                      Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                      McVay worked with others, spoke openly about revolt and didn't kill himself in the act. Sparks did the opposite, he martyred himself.

                      I don't know why you are questioning the OK City bombing as an act of terrorism, he was clearly a terrorist.The comments about not intending to kill the daycare kids was because he wanted to send a message to the government, not just kill people because he was really angry. McVay was a terrorist.

                      @Hamberlger: If the 'definition' means that people do something different as a result then everything that anyone does at any time is terrorism. That type of argument isn't worth addressing because it is illogical.
                      So you have to work with others to be a terrorist and you can't die in the act?

                      Suicide bombers are not terrorists then? Are the people who kill doctors to stop abortions terrorists?

                      And why do you have to work with others to be a terrorist? Where did that come from?

                      Was Ted Kaczynski a terrorist?
                      Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Why not a terrorist?

                        Official United States Government Definition of Terrorism

                        "[An] act of terrorism, means any activity that (A) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life that is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State; and (B) appears to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping."

                        (United States Code Congressional and Administrative News, 98th Congress, Second Session, 1984, Oct. 19, volume 2; par. 3077, 98 STAT. 2707 [West Publishing Co., 1984])

                        If you read Stack's website he was been trying to influence politicians and tax policy for years to no avail. There is no question that he was attempting to influence the policy of the IRS (a government institution) through intimidation and assassination.

                        http://www.inic.org/

                        Originally posted by Joe Stack
                        It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Why not a terrorist?

                          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                          So you have to work with others to be a terrorist and you can't die in the act?

                          Suicide bombers are not terrorists then? Are the people who kill doctors to stop abortions terrorists?

                          And why do you have to work with others to be a terrorist? Where did that come from?

                          Was Ted Kaczynski a terrorist?
                          I'm saying there is only a single way to be a terrorist. I'm saying that there is a difference between being angry and committing a violent act, and acting violently to achieve a goal of terrorizing something.

                          A white guy who kills the black man his wife cheats on him with is killing someone because he is angry.
                          A white guy who posts on about hating black people and then kills a black guy and makes it clear that there is someone out there with a vendetta against black people is instigating terror.

                          The differences between McVay and Sparks are McVay was sending a message in an attempt to instigate change, by living he would have caused further fear of a future attack. Ted was a terrorist because he actively targeted a certain group to inspire fear.

                          Sparks had tried to instigate change through his legal appeals to the IRS, when he got fed up and angry he crashed the plane. Without an accomplice the fear of a further strike died with him.

                          @Hambergler: The attempt to change was when he was fighting his case for years legally. The crashing of the plane was a final act of frustration.
                          |TG-6th|Snooggums

                          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Why not a terrorist?

                            Originally posted by snooggums View Post

                            @Hambergler: The attempt to change was when he was fighting his case for years legally. The crashing of the plane was a final act of frustration.
                            When you try to make the government change by writing letters or making phone calls it's called being a responsible citizen.

                            When you try to make the government change through intimidation and assassination it's called terrorism.

                            Very simple really.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Why not a terrorist?

                              Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                              Sparks had tried to instigate change through his legal appeals to the IRS, when he got fed up and angry he crashed the plane. Without an accomplice the fear of a further strike died with him.
                              So a suicide bombers that is not directly connected to a so called terrorist group is not a terrorist?

                              A single person, perhaps crazy, that goes out and blows himself or herself up in the name of Allah or aborted babies or whatever is not a terrorist? According to you they are not.

                              Or a individual that does it because they are inspired by, but not directly involved with, the Taliban isn't a terrorist either?
                              Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                              - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                              - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                              - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                              - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                              - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                              - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                              Comment

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