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  • Piracy

    Since the previous thread is supposed to be about games, I'll start a separate one for the more general issue.

    A friend just linked this in IRC:

    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  • #2
    Re: Piracy

    The convenience justification for piracy is about the weakest one I've heard. It takes me at most around 2 minutes to get from putting the disc in to watching the movie or TV show; usually less since most DVDs I watch allow you to either hit the chapter forward button or top menu button to bypass the previews instead of fast-forwarding through them. Not to mention that chart leaves out the time it takes to torrent a 2-3GB+ movie and burn the iso.

    What pirates often don't feel comfortable admitting is that they simply want the content for free. That's the monster in the room no one wants to address. It's always pirates taking some sort of moral high ground against a big bad company, but that really isn't the case.
    "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
    He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

    - Attributed to General George Patton, Jr.

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    • #3
      Re: Piracy

      Originally posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^> View Post
      The convenience justification for piracy is about the weakest one I've heard. It takes me at most around 2 minutes to get from putting the disc in to watching the movie or TV show; usually less since most DVDs I watch allow you to either hit the chapter forward button or top menu button to bypass the previews instead of fast-forwarding through them.
      Which you have to do every single time you put in the movie and most players, at the request of movie and music companies, don't allow skipping or direct access to the menu. The company is limiting your control as a viewer and forces you to watch the FBI warning on the movie you purchased every single time you watch that movie you purchased. It is not only annoying, it is insulting.

      Not to mention that chart leaves out the time it takes to torrent a 2-3GB+ movie and burn the iso.
      Only needs to be done one time and can be done for various items at the same time, during which you can do any number of activities and afterwards you have a copy of the movie that will behave the way you want it to, plays on any device you want to with an easy reencoding and can be formatted to fit the type of screen you wish. A legally 'licensed' movie you gave money for cannot legally be altered to another format due to the DMCA, requires you to jump through their hoops and not be altered in a way you find enjoyable. It would be like buying a car and every time you got into the front seat it would take 2 minutes to adjust the seat, flip the lights on and off and then lecture you about the illegality of stealing a car. If you simply pirated a car you could get in, turn the key and just get going.

      What pirates often don't feel comfortable admitting is that they simply want the content for free. That's the monster in the room no one wants to address. It's always pirates taking some sort of moral high ground against a big bad company, but that really isn't the case.
      Irrelevant to the convenience conversation, and it is always addressed in Sandbox threads. Yes, many people pirate because it is free, but not because they would have spent money on it otherwise. Do you really think that kids with thousands of songs on their ipod would have paid the thousands of dollars for those very same songs if they had to? No, they would have spent much less and might have lost an interest in music altogether like I did when I stopped buying commercial music due to their stranglehold on copyright.
      |TG-6th|Snooggums

      Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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      • #4
        Re: Piracy

        What is the DMCA penalty for bypassing encryption during fair-use transcoding to another format in your home? There are expensive automated media centers that will rip your DVDs and store them on a HDD, same as what I do manually. Why are those legal, and manual ripping isn't? The whole convenience factor is a HUGE deal with me. BluRay has quality that can't be matched, but I'm ripping all of my DVDs to HDD one by one. Technology has gotten to where I can have all of my movies ready to play at the push of a button, literally, and I'm going to take full advantage of that. Scratchmonkey's image sums up my frustration nicely. It's not about free movies (or music, or software). Using StarWars as an example, I've paid for the original trilogy 4 times already, and will pay for it again if it's released on BluRay. And I'm ok with that. But I don't see why I shouldn't be able to make a digital copy of whatever version I legitimately own. Nor do I see why I can't edit the film however I see fit for my own viewing pleasure (cutting out trailers, warnings and even scenes that I don't like...).

        Which reminds me of the wacko christian group that was selling censored, god-approved versions of popular films. Anyone know what happened to them? I'm sure they were sued, but I wanted them to win.
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        • #5
          Re: Piracy

          I'd like to throw in a question: do you guys think that pirating films is any different to pirating music or games? I.e. would you pirate one but not the other, or would you be more prepared to pay for one after trying it for free (I hear this justification for pirating games a lot, often people say that a demo is not representative of the full game etc.)?
          |TG-Irr| westyfield

          Sig pic by Sonic, avatar by Chalcas. Thanks!
          Irregular since 2007.

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          • #6
            Re: Piracy

            Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
            What is the DMCA penalty for bypassing encryption during fair-use transcoding to another format in your home?
            The same as if you were a company who did so for profit as there is no right to fair use of purchased items. Fair use is a defense, like self defense, that shows your actions were ok despite the action itself (ie manslaughter) being against the law.

            The DMCA has exemptions for archiving, preserving works that require specific hardware to run, and some other reviewer and educational exemptions. I was not aware, and cannot find any exemptions in the law itself for home use. That said, the law covers bypassing the security aspects, so if Sony makes a DVD ripper that bypasses their own DRM then that ripper is legal because they sanction it. The actual copying of the copyright after that is again a violation of copyright that can be countered with a fair use defense.

            Originally posted by westyfield View Post
            I'd like to throw in a question: do you guys think that pirating films is any different to pirating music or games? I.e. would you pirate one but not the other, or would you be more prepared to pay for one after trying it for free (I hear this justification for pirating games a lot, often people say that a demo is not representative of the full game etc.)?
            Non-legal personal opinions:

            Downloading a game, running it for 30 minutes to check out the game and then deleting it is like going onto youtube and watching an illegally posted music video to determine if you want to buy a game/album. If you save the youtube video for future use, or keep the downloaded game to play through then you aren't previewing, you are violating the spirit of copyright. I don't consider the previewing as noted above as harmful to the copyright holder so I don't see it as clearly wrong like I do the keeping it around part.

            I also don't see anything wrong with downloading a TV show that is on a channel you have available to your house that you DVR missed because a sports game ran into the show's time, or even if you forgot to record it. You are already paying the copyright holder through your subscription to the channel, and I don't see time shifting as wrong.
            |TG-6th|Snooggums

            Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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            • #7
              Re: Piracy

              Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
              here are expensive automated media centers that will rip your DVDs and store them on a HDD, same as what I do manually. Why are those legal, and manual ripping isn't?
              Those devices probably use a key from the DVD CCA. Part of the agreement to get the key forces them to lock down the device and prevent you from making copies. The ripping software probably uses libdvdcss.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Piracy

                I find the topic technically interesting, but I'm not a big media consumer. I tend to watch movies and TV shows once, so renting would be the most useful setup for me, or watching on cable via DVR (what I normally do). I've got a handful of CDs I rarely listen to. (I find them too distracting when I'm working, and in the car I usually have talk radio or news going.) I haven't bought a new game in a long time because none of the recent ones interest me. I'm happy to bounce back and forth between WoW (monthly subscription plus an expansion every year or two) and Battlefield 2. If I were gonna buy another game, I'd probably look for it on Steam. (I love the Half-Life series.)
                Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Piracy

                  Originally posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^> View Post
                  The convenience justification for piracy is about the weakest one I've heard.
                  That isn't the point.

                  The point is that those that give money to the company have a worse experience than the person who rips the company off.

                  Only DRM stuff becomes for friend when I break the law.

                  Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                  What is the DMCA penalty for bypassing encryption during fair-use transcoding to another format in your home?
                  Nobody knows if the "fair-use" stuff applies to modern DRM law. Hasn't been challenged in court yet from what I know. It should because it was originally kinda the common sense or common right law that superseded copyright law. The idea that your laws and rights cannot supersede my rights. Hopefully that still exists.
                  Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                  - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                  - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                  - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                  - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                  - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                  - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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                  • #10
                    Re: Piracy

                    Something else about all this.

                    At least some of the fight is about control. I find it appalling that companies think they can control them after they have bought an item. Legal mumbo-jumbo aside, after I have purchased something I should be able to do with it as I please within the limits of technology. (And I could care less about giving copies to my friends or strangers. I don't want to give copies to strangers.)

                    Companies want to use law and DRM to control me. Want to force me to consume things I don't care about.

                    It is like the fruit forcing me to eat the nasty stuff like rind, core, peal etc. Sure, most of the time I will if it is more convenient to do so. But at other times I just want the juicy parts. Somebody realizes all I want is the juicy parts so they develop the automatic peeler/core remover get rid of the stuff I don't want. But the fruit says "NO! Even though you bought the fruit you have to eat all of me or be punished. Because you didn't really buy me. You just licensed me. And the the person who made the autocorer will also be punished."

                    DRM and associated laws want to force me to eat the rind and core and stem.
                    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Piracy

                      Originally posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^> View Post
                      What pirates often don't feel comfortable admitting is that they simply want the content for free. That's the monster in the room no one wants to address. It's always pirates taking some sort of moral high ground against a big bad company, but that really isn't the case.
                      That is true. I do want the things for free. However as snooggums said, usually it means that I wouldn't have bought it otherwise because I know it was probably going to be a crappy product.
                      I'm thinking of movies mostly here. In my view most of the movies from hollywood have producers compulsively adding love interests, partial nudity scenes etc etc. Hollywood movies are dumbed down for stupid people. And then If I were to buy one, the money will go to some huge company on the other side of the globe from me. It will not benefit anyone in my country at all really, granted that there is local retail. Personally, I just can't at all be bothered to care a dime about the hollywood movies.
                      Anytime there is a really interesting new movie, I go to the cinema and pay for it no problem. If it is a quality product, I don't mind paying some. I got so fed up with the mind-numbing idiocy of most movies though when I used to rent a lot of movies, that I have found that paying 2 to three euros to watch a movie is a total ripoff.

                      *
                      The convenience is a great argument in my opinion. If you pay to see something there is no way on earth the companies shuld have the balls to make you see anything at all but the film you bought. Add all the extras you want, but if the disc goes into the slot, one butten press should bring up the opening of the movie. Not adds, piracy warnings (which only non-pirates ever get to see lmao), epilepsy inducing menu intros etc.

                      *
                      Another thing, about video-> dvd->blueray...
                      If I buy a movie, therefore the rights to own and see that copyrighted work, I should NEVER EVER HAVE TO BUY IT AGAIN. Say you bought the movie on DVD, blueray comes out in high def, you ought definitively to have the right to:
                      -download any higher resolution version that comes out of the same content
                      -buy the new version at the price of the data storage device; re-buy all your DVD's for the price of an empty blueraydisc + shipping +any other small associated costs.

                      How insane is it to buy a movie on video then dvd, then blueray,... many people actually do this. The same goes for music.

                      In the end if it wasn't for the pirates providing market pressure... your movies would be more expensive, rentals would not exist, and you would have to re-buy everything you like every 5 years. Oh, and it would have commercials interrupting your DVD no doubt, because 'movie making is so expensive it is needed to lower the cost' (Orwellian speak for making more profit).

                      I honestly don't get how anyone can get angry at pirates. I've decided 5 years ago that I won't listen to any music by people who object to free downloading of their tunes, or even worse sue thier fans. All real artists share their music for free, the rest are money grabbing posers. Metallica FTW!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Piracy

                        Originally posted by BigGaayAl View Post
                        Another thing, about video-> dvd->blueray...
                        If I buy a movie, therefore the rights to own and see that copyrighted work, I should NEVER EVER HAVE TO BUY IT AGAIN. Say you bought the movie on DVD, blueray comes out in high def, you ought definitively to have the right to:
                        -download any higher resolution version that comes out of the same content
                        -buy the new version at the price of the data storage device; re-buy all your DVD's for the price of an empty blueraydisc + shipping +any other small associated costs.
                        But you're not buying the same product each time. You must value the higher resolution or you wouldn't be willing to pay again for it. If you don't value the higher resolution, then don't pay for it. Leave it on the shelf. (That's what I do.) I find it quite perplexing that anyone would buy a film that's not an eye-candy fest at higher resolution. I'd consider buying Fantasia on successively higher resolutions, but not many films have that kind of payoff for better resolution.
                        Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                        snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                        Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Piracy

                          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                          Companies want to use law and DRM to control me. Want to force me to consume things I don't care about.

                          It is like the fruit forcing me to eat the nasty stuff like rind, core, peal etc. Sure, most of the time I will if it is more convenient to do so. But at other times I just want the juicy parts. Somebody realizes all I want is the juicy parts so they develop the automatic peeler/core remover get rid of the stuff I don't want. But the fruit says "NO! Even though you bought the fruit you have to eat all of me or be punished. Because you didn't really buy me. You just licensed me. And the the person who made the autocorer will also be punished."

                          DRM and associated laws want to force me to eat the rind and core and stem.
                          Substitute a few terms and you sound like a teabagger storming about nationalized health care. :p Listen to conservative talk radio and it's all about "they want to control me!".

                          Not that I disagree with either the DRM rant or the conservative rants. I just find the parallels amusing. ;)
                          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Piracy

                            Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                            Substitute a few terms and you sound like a teabagger storming about nationalized health care. :p Listen to conservative talk radio and it's all about "they want to control me!".

                            Not that I disagree with either the DRM rant or the conservative rants. I just find the parallels amusing. ;)
                            Except any sense of control that people have about health care is illusory. That and almost no individual pays for healthcare themselves.

                            But yea. If individuals can have control they should have it after they have paid for the product.
                            Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Piracy

                              I've decided that, in order to maintain the moral high ground, I will in the future be pirating media and then not using it. I've got like half a Tb of drive space I'm not using, might as well put it to work sticking it to the man.

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