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  • Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

    Israel plays a dangerous game with friends and foes

    To hear some in Israel describe it, it was mere coincidence that construction of 1,600 new homes in disputed East Jerusalem happened to be announced right as Vice President Biden was visiting Jerusalem to discuss peace talks between the Israelis and Palestinians.

    But other Israelis see this week’s events as a calculated insult and humiliation, similar in tone and intent to that delivered to the Turkish ambassador a couple of months ago by Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon.

    As Bradley Burston asks in the newspaper Haaretz, “Why would Israeli officials degrade Israel by humiliating the vice president of the United States?… Or to add, in insult to injury, that construction on the new homes could begin as soon as early May.”

    Burston sees it as an expression of an attitude, an attitude that was also apparent in the words of a top official in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s party in response to Biden’s visit. “We see it as nothing short of an insult that President Obama himself is not coming,” the official said.

    “The timing is not coincidental,” Jerusalem city council member Meir Margalit told Haaretz. “The fact that (the Israeli interior minister) can’t wait a few more days until Biden leaves the country proves his goal was to give the American administration a slap in the face.”
    This seems hardly a coincidence that Israel announced the "construction of 1,600 new homes in disputed East Jerusalem" at the very moment the Vice President arrives, rather, it was intended to insult and scoff in the face of the United States in my opinion. Wich leads me to this question:

    Why does the United States continue to give tremendous amounts of economic and military aid to a country that does not share or support our foreign policy goals for peace in the region?

    Several years ago John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt released a "working paper" to the London Book Review:

    The Israel Lobby

    John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

    For the past several decades, and especially since the Six-Day War in 1967, the centrepiece of US Middle Eastern
    policy has been its relationship with Israel. The combination of unwavering support for Israel and the related effort to spread ‘democracy’ throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardised not only US security but that of much of the rest of the world. This situation has no equal in American political history. Why has the US been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of another state? One might assume that the bond between the two countries was based on shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives, but neither explanation can account for the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the US provides.

    Instead, the thrust of US policy in the region derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the ‘Israel Lobby’. Other special-interest groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that US interests and those of the other country – in this case, Israel – are essentially identical. Full article
    This later became the book: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy , wich I have read. This book is a no nonsense look into the massive AIPAC lobby in Washington, and the affect it has on US foreign policy. For all intensive purposes, the Israeli government controls and dictates policy in Washington through this lobbying giant, among other factors wich are covered in the book. All this influence goes largely unreported in the US media, and it's political suicide to speak against Israeli policy in the Beltway. Any critic that condemns or speaks out against Israeli policy is often labeled unfairly as an anti-semite and dismissed. Why is it not possible to have a rational discusssion about this issue without all the controversy and misinformation?

    The state of Israel - in my opinion - may have been a strategic ally during the Cold War, but now have become a HUGE and expensive liability at this point. As our support continues - and Israel continues their horrendous occupation and building of settlements - it only hurts the United States.

    I have just barely touched base on this issue and its many complexities, but, I would like to see what other people think, so I ask the question again:

    Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?
    |TG-X| mp40x



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  • #2
    Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

    The support should stay with a condition that they stop harassing the Palestinians and forcing occupation by relocation, if they don't stop then withdraw the support because while there will still be some violence Israel's reactions are inflammatory.
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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    • #3
      Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

      Intents and purposes.

      For all intents and purposes...
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      • #4
        Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

        Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
        Intents and purposes.

        For all intents and purposes...
        Do you even have an opinion on the subject? Or, do you just feel it necessary to chime in to correct my grammar? Please elaborate on this complex issue, maybe you could answer the question that was posed or offer some insight.

        The truth is that most Americans don't have the courage to call the Israeli occupation for what it really is, immoral. They would rather believe outdated folklore, media talking points, and political slogans instead of coming to the realization that Israel is not some shining example of everything thats good about democracy and its priciples. Rather, they are a militarized, occupying, coercive force with little or no regard for human life or property. If they are to recieve any US foreign aid, they should be made to comply with stipulations that lead to a peaceful resolution to the conflict. Instead, they scoff in the face of the US Vice President when he arrives by announcing more settlements. Why, because they know that the political structure in Washington - including their massive lobby - will support them no matter what, despite the continued condemnation that the world has expressed for their policies.

        The European Union has now backed the findings of the UN Goldstone Report, wich was highly inflammatory in regard to the Israeli military action in the Gaza war.

        EU Parliament backs Goldstone Report

        I might add that the Gaza War was a perfect example of the extreme military response that the IDF used in reaction to attacks by Hamas. This is what really turned me against the Iraeli occupation, as I was towing the line in regard to some support for Israel up until this conflict:

        On 27 December Israel began a wave of airstrikes[25] on the Gaza Strip with the stated aim of stopping the rocket attacks from and arms smuggling into the territory,[26][27] damaging or destroying tens of thousands of homes,[28] 15 of Gaza’s 27 hospitals and 43 of its 110 primary health care facilities,[29] 800 water wells,[30] 186 greenhouses,[31] and nearly all of its 10,000 family farms[32]; leaving 50,000 homeless,[33] 400,000-500,000 without running water,[33][34] one million without electricity,[34], and resulting in acute food shortages.

        Between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed,[42] and tens of thousands of people were left homeless. Source.
        Notice that over 1000 Palestinians were killed, some 300 were children, but the Israeli's only suffered 13 deaths. Many of the dead were Hamas fighters, but that does not change the unnecessary deaths of women and children. And, the bombing of hospitals and other civilian targets was also not necessary.
        |TG-X| mp40x



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        • #5
          Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

          Yeah, but it stopped the rocket attacks that had plagued Israeli civilians for... eight years or somesuch. Extreme or not, it achieved the IDF's intentions. You can't pussyfoot around asymmetric forces that willingly use population centers as protection against military reprisals.

          I'm only commenting on the Gaza War. I'm... not really sure of what US response should be towards Israel. Way out of my pay-grade.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

            Originally posted by Gill View Post
            Yeah, but it stopped the rocket attacks that had plagued Israeli civilians for... eight years or somesuch. Extreme or not, it achieved the IDF's intentions. You can't pussyfoot around asymmetric forces that willingly use population centers as protection against military reprisals.
            Sure, you could look at it that way, simply ignoring the civilian casualties is easy and painless. But, the US military would never intentionally or indiscriminately bomb civillian targets. So why do we accept it when the Israeli's do it? The US would also never colonize lands that were conquered by US military forces. How would the citizens of Iraq or Afghanistan feel if after we invaded their country, we started trucking in American settlers who evicted locals and took their land and claimed it as their own. I think it's safe to say that the US would have NO support - not that we have that much anyway - internationally or from those two countries if we engaged in that type of behaviour.

            You could also argue that there would be no Hamas without the Israeli occupation, that they are merely just a bi-product of Israeli coercion - I'm just trying to keep an open mind when peering into this complicated debacle. The Palestinians have really just become prisoners in their own land, surounded by fences, under embargo/blockade, and forced into acceptance of the terms by the IDF. Its safe to assume that after years of this cycle that some radicals - like Hamas - would surface and become intolerant of any terms of peace.

            I think at the heart of this debate is the continued settlements and Israeli arrogance about the issue. How can you claim to be a democratic society - based on the rule of law - but conveniently overlook the injustice of occupying other peoples lands?



            Most Americans do not realize just how radical the Jewish settlers are. They are arguably just as radical as Hamas, as they feel - in their religious fervor - that they are entitled to the land under mandate from God. That whatever happens to the Palestinians - no matter how tragic - is just part of Gods plan for them. Its possible that they would engage in asymmetric warfare/terrorism themselves - against the Palestinians - if they did not have the IDF and Israeli government standing behind them.

            Imagine this scenario. The American indians started living on ranches and farmland out west, claiming that the land was once theirs, and, that their religion stated that their God was in favor of resettlement. How long would the US government and land owners tolerate that scenario?
            |TG-X| mp40x



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            • #7
              Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

              I'm willing to bet that the Israelis would eagerly participate in "cleansing" the Palestine lands of inhabitants and repopulating them with Israelis. The other Arab states that support Palestine is a check against that... plus I believe we'd drop support and/or condemn Israel for something that extreme. So they make tiny little pushes here and there, testing the yoke of US support.

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              • #8
                Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                Imagine this scenario. The American indians started living on ranches and farmland out west, claiming that the land was once theirs, and, that their religion stated that their God was in favor of resettlement. How long would the US government and land owners tolerate that scenario?
                Silly mp40x, you should have used the reverse, Manifest Destiny but then you would have been giving an example that matched Isreal's actions :)

                For those too lazy to click:
                Manifest Destiny is a term that was used in the 19th century to designate the belief that the United States was destined, even divinely ordained, to expand across the North American continent, from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean. Sometimes Manifest Destiny was interpreted so broadly as to include the eventual absorption of all North America: Canada, Mexico, Cuba and Central America. Advocates of Manifest Destiny believed that expansion was not only ethical but that it was readily apparent ("manifest") and inexorable ("destiny"). Although initially used as a catch phrase to inspire the United States' expansion across the North American continent, the 19th century phrase eventually became a standard historical term.
                |TG-6th|Snooggums

                Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                  http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1156070.html

                  "The Quartet of Middle East peacemakers condemned Friday Israel's decision to approve construction of 1,600 new homes in east Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want as their future capital.

                  "The Quartet condemns Israel's decision to advance planning for new housing units in east Jerusalem," the statement said. "The Quartet has agreed to closely monitor developments in Jerusalem and to keep under consideration additional steps that may be required to address the situation on the ground."

                  "Unilateral action by the Israelis or Palestinians cannot prejudge the outcome of (peace) negotiations and will not be recognized by the international community," the statement said

                  "The Quartet will take full stock of the situation at its meeting in Moscow on March 19," the statement said.

                  The Quartet called on all concerned to support the urgent resumption of
                  dialogue between the parties and to promote an atmosphere that is conducive to successful negotiations to resolve all outstanding issues of the conflict.

                  The group reiterated that Arab-Israeli peace and the establishment of an
                  independent, contiguous and viable state of Palestine is in the fundamental interests of the parties, of all states in the region, and of the international community.

                  Clinton snubs Netanyahu

                  United States Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned Friday Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that his government sent a "deeply negative signal" by taking steps which undermined renewed Middle East peace talks.

                  Clinton telephoned Netanyahu and expressed frustration over Israel's announcement on Tuesday of new settlement construction, a move that deeply embarrassed visiting U.S. Vice President Joe Biden and imperiled U.S. plans to launch indirect negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

                  State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said Clinton told Netanyahu the announcement was a "deeply negative signal about Israel's approach to the bilateral relationship ... and had undermined trust and confidence in the peace process."

                  "The secretary said she could not understand how this happened, particularly in light of the United States' strong commitment to Israel's security," Crowley said.

                  "She made clear that the Israeli government needed to demonstrate not just through words but through specific actions that they are committed to this relationship and to the peace process," he said.

                  Clinton's rebuke of Netanyahu capped a week of tense exchanges between the United States and Israel, which on Tuesday announced it was building 1,600 new settler homes in an area of the occupied West Bank it annexed to Jerusalem.

                  The announcement infuriated the West Bank-based Palestinian leadership, which threatened to pull out of U.S.-brokered indirect "proximity" talks with Israel that Washington hoped would be the first step toward relaunching full peace negotiations after more than a year."
                  An analysis of the new situation: http://www.isracast.com/article.aspx...ent%27s-Fiasco

                  IsraCast Assessment: Obama Administration's Forgiving Reaction To Israeli Government's Insult To Joe Biden Will Actually Restrict Bibi Netanyahu's Freedon Of Action In the Future

                  Rather Than Reacting By 'Don't Get Mad, Get Even!' Obama Decided To Leverage the Israeli Fiasco To Serve U.S. Interests On Iran and Arab World

                  Kadima Opposition: 'Netanyahu's Gross Negligence Is Wake-up Call To Israel's Silent Majority That Netanyahu Is Both Incompetent & Jeopardizing National Interests'
                  Benyamin Netanyahu (Photo: Amit Shabi)

                  U.S. Vice President Joe Biden has come and gone but the dust is still swirling around Middle East sand storm in his wake. Biden, a close personal friend of Netanyahu, was sent by President Barack Obama, on a good will mission to clear the air with Netanyahu, kick off the long awaited proximity talks between Israel and the Palestinians and to make sure that Washington and Jerusalem are on the same page in the confrontation with Iran. And smack in the middle, the startling announcement by Israel's Interior Ministry that a planning committee had approved 1600 new housing in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Ramat Shlomo. Analyst David Essing is of the view that the insult to Biden, unintentional as it was, will paradoxically enable the Obama administration to exercise more leverage over the Israeli Prime Minister.

                  Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu has apologized profusely to Vice President Joe Biden saying he was unaware the Interior Ministry planned to make the announcement during his visit to Israel. Even Likud Cabinet Minister Gilead Arden had to agree with the critics that the timing was 'deplorable', although the Israeli government has differences with Washington over building in eastern Jerusalem. After the 'in your face' insult', even if it was due to negligence and not intention, the U.S. could have reacted in several ways. It could have responded 'proportionately' to this act of diplomatic warfare by not only condemning the building decision but also by suspending Biden's visit to Israel and going home. However, Biden's mission to Israel and the West Bank was part of a much bigger picture- the Middle East mosaic with Iran at the center.

                  While Biden was here, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates was in Riyadh where he declared that the diplomatic approach had failed and now was the time for Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States and the entire international community to move forcefully on imposing new sanctions on Tehran. Washington has recently been sending high profile officials to Jerusalem to keep Israel on a tight leash and forestall any possible military strike on Iran. So rather than bashing Netanyahu, the Obama administration finessed the Israeli bureaucratic bungling into rapping Israeli knuckles, weakening Netanyahu's prestige and reiterating its position to Israeli building in eastern Jerusalem. The severity of the diplomatic row has enabled the U.S. to increase its leverage over the Israeli government. This time, Washington deigned to overlook Netanyahu's dereliction, but the implied threat was that next time would be a different story. So, Netanyahu has shot himself in the foot by not keeping a tight rein on sensitive issues that could impact on Israel's foreign relations. One would have thought in his second term of office, he would have learned this lesson by now. As a result, the PM's office has see fit belatedly, to issue instructions to all thirty cabinet ministers on the issue.

                  Although the American fury was vented over the timing of the Israeli announcement, the basic question remains over American opposition to all Israeli building beyond the 'Green Line' of 1967. Will Netanyahu now be gun-shy on building per se in east Jerusalem? His cabinet secretary Zvi Hauser has declared that the ten month building suspension applies only to Judea & Samaria(West Bank) and Israel view all of Jerusalem as her unified capital and as such, is entitled to build anywhere in its environs. Interior Minister Eli Ishai of Shas also pleaded he was unaware of the building announcement adding: 'It would have been advisable to postpone it for another two or three weeks' - that is when the U.S. Vice President was not in town. Cabinet Minister Benny Begin of the far Right Likud played down the uproar by saying:' There never is an appropriate time for announcing Israeli building in east Jerusalem as far as the international community is concerned!'

                  Netanyahu is being tarred and feathered by the media and in fact he has only himself to blame. He will likely nosedive in the next opinion polls. The Prime Minister has abdicated control over some crucial aspects of foreign relations to far right coalition partners. It can be assumed Netanyahu did not not want to rock the boat with Shas by stepping on the toes of Eli Ishai. Another case in point was the atrocious humiliation of the Turkish Ambassador several months ago by Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon of Avigdor Lieberman's party. (Foreign Minister Lieberman himself is persona non grata in the Arab countries because of vitriolic statements he made before getting his portfolio.

                  In the past, Netanyahu has spoken of how important it is for a leader to 'keep his eye on the ball' and not be sidetracked by secondary issue. By the Prime Minister's own account, the Iranian nuclear threat tops the national agenda, posing the greatest threat to the survival of the Jewish state. Is this is the case, why is the Israeli government risking its special ties with the U.S. and alienating the Arab world and international community when the Iranian question is heading for a crescendo?

                  Netanyahu himself has expressed his readiness to do a deal with the Palestinians based on the two state solution and both dovish President Shimon Peres as well as Labor party leader Ehud Barak have said they believe him. The Obama administration, through special envoy George Mitchell, has been working behind the scenes to secure the support of the Arab League for the long- waited proximity talks that facilitate the Arab states support for the U.S. in confrontation with Iran. This is now up in the air, although the U.S. remains confident the proximity talks will get underway despite the Palestinian bluster.

                  In domestic politics, this is just what the doctor ordered for opposition leader Tzipi Livni of Kadima. The Opposition has tabled a motion of no-confidence in the government over the Biden affair. Livni can be expected to take the Knesset rostrum with all guns blazing after Netanyahu has supplied her ample ammunition. In the the election over a year ago, Livni's party actually took one seat more than did the Likud, but Netanyahu favored a coalition with the Right-wing parties and Labor after rejecting a Livni demand that he accept the two state formula, which he eventually did under American pressure. One Kadima source says the Biden fiasco will be a loud wake-up call for Israel's silent majority that favors a partition of Jerusalem and a return to the 1967 lines with the major settlement blocs, for which the Palestinians would be compensated by land exchanges. This is actually the traditional Labor party position. The silent majority has dozed off believing their is no viable Palestinian peace partner, after Ariel Sharon evacuated all of the Gaza Strip and the Palestinians reciprocated with daily barrages of rockets. Moreover, there is no unified Palestinian partner after Hamas, which vows Israel's destruction, expelled President Abbas's Fatah movement from Gaza in a bloody coup. However, the Palestinian issue and east Jerusalem are not all important. What is of paramount importance is the support of the U.S., the Arab world and the international community in finding a solution to the Iran threat. Livni can be expected to argue that Netanyahu has failed abysmally in 'keeping his eye on this ball' and in so doing is jeopardizing Israel's national interests."

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                  • #10
                    Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                    Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                    Do you even have an opinion on the subject? Or, do you just feel it necessary to chime in to correct my grammar? Please elaborate on this complex issue, maybe you could answer the question that was posed or offer some insight.
                    I was just chiming in...

                    I do have an opinion that I've expressed in this forum several times, but that I will keep to myself right now.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                      Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                      Sure, you could look at it that way, simply ignoring the civilian casualties is easy and painless. But, the US military would never intentionally or indiscriminately bomb civillian targets. So why do we accept it when the Israeli's do it? The US would also never colonize lands that were conquered by US military forces.
                      True, we wouldn't do that. But keep in mind, we are an anomaly of history. This (meaning the US) is a bizarre one-of-a-kind scenario that doesn't represent the general course of human events. For most nations across most of recorded time, they would intentionally attack civilian targets, and would then colonize the conquered lands. At some point we decided that was too evil and wars shouldn't be fought that way anymore -- but we are the strange ones here, not Israel.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                        For most nations across most of recorded time, they would intentionally attack civilian targets, and would then colonize the conquered lands. At some point we decided that was too evil and wars shouldn't be fought that way anymore
                        We are not any different. You don't consider all the native American tribes we wiped out, "relocated" etc examples of that? We decided to stop doing that after we had taken over the central part of North America. We got what we needed doing it the old way then stopped and called ourselves good. Many thought we should have gone into Central America and beyond but that was never carried out.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                          Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                          True, we wouldn't do that. But keep in mind, we are an anomaly of history. This (meaning the US) is a bizarre one-of-a-kind scenario that doesn't represent the general course of human events. For most nations across most of recorded time, they would intentionally attack civilian targets, and would then colonize the conquered lands. At some point we decided that was too evil and wars shouldn't be fought that way anymore -- but we are the strange ones here, not Israel.
                          I don't think that the US decided civilian targets were off limits because it was 'evil', the move to focusing on military targets had more to do with trying to avoid bad press and not a specific moral basis. See the two nuclear bombs dropped on Japan and targets in Iraq as examples of direct attacks on civilian based manufacturing.

                          We still hit many targets where there is a known likelihood of civilian casualties, we just don't focus our attacks at the civilian targets because it makes us look bad to the survivors.
                          |TG-6th|Snooggums

                          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                            @last two posts:

                            Sure, but that just makes my point stronger. I'm not trying to defend the US as being totally awesome here, just pointing out that the idea of "nice war" is very young and not universal. I'd suggest it was born after World War II, although you might disagree with me on the exact date. But the real point is that its not really surprising there are countries out there that don't subscribe to it. For example, Israel.

                            In fact, sometimes I suspect thats one of the reasons we are still allied with Israel. There's things we can't do politically anymore, because of our commitment to "nice war", that they can do FOR us. They can act as a proxy to do some of the things we'd really LIKE to do, but can't get away with.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Should the US Government Stop Supporting Israel?

                              Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                              @last two posts:

                              Sure, but that just makes my point stronger.
                              I'm not sure why our disagreement with your point makes your point stronger.
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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