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A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

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  • #31
    Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

    There's nothing inherently bad about the word in economic debate. There are stipulative definitions used by many academics in discussing economics, politics, history and so on that are perfectly good. You'll note that none of them are one liners. It's generally used as a term for a combination of a number of political, social, and economic views. Obama doesn't come out socialist on them. The term is a technical term. It's one of those "isms." So its no surprise that lay usage of the term is nowhere near precise enough. This is a term, however, that's taken on a negative connotation for the lay. So they often use it as a name calling device in lieu of argument. It's pervasive. So even people who haven't associated any negative connotation or who've disassociated a negative connotation are now using the term in ways that don't match the academic usage.

    It doesn't matter what the intention of the poll author had. It doesn't matter whether he expected a certain result or not. So long as he's not messing with the numbers or asking trick questions, the poll data is the poll data. Suppose I have a hypothesis that many people are calling Obama a socialist even though he's not a socialist. There's nothing wrong with me constructing a poll and utilizing correct polling methods and techniques to determine whether my hypothesis is right or not. It's not a poll about the economic views of the respondents. It's a poll about what terms the respondents use to characterize Obama.

    The last serious socialist movement and contender for the presidency in the US was with Eugene Debs in the early 20th century.

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    • #32
      Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

      Originally posted by Hambergler View Post
      I'm very interested in finding out what principles you're talking about?
      Various Christians I know hold, according to their interpretations of the Bible, abortion is "murder," homosexuality is "abomination," and that the nation won't be blessed unless it supports Israel, Jerusalem, etc. They generally think he's Muslim and that Islam is a religion against that of Christ. They also feel *socialism,* for lack of another concise word, to be against Biblical principles, principles embodied in Christ. I do not defend these things, but say them as a report.

      Originally posted by sordavie View Post
      So is Catholicism the phase you must go through to become Protestant or is it the other way around?
      Catholicism came first and was "protested" and "reformed" in the 16th century. You imply that individuals must go from being Socialists to Communists or vice versa. Why? I didn't. I merely said the amount of differences were comparable, not the type of differences, anyway. My big point was, for general purposes, the religions are both "Christianity" and a word describing Communism and Socialism would be beneficial for general purposes.

      It is not my intention to arbitrarily put any label on anyone. "Socialism" is a word that's been used to describe the various schemes of plunder popularized during the last two or two and a half centuries. I think it's not unreasonable to say the "badness" of the word "socialism" has been based upon concerns that it undermines free enterprise, a pillar of freedom in America. I'd say "Communism" got the connotation for even more badness for being thought of as socialism by means of violent overthrow. Plunder, a word used extensively by Bastiat, also has a negative connotation. Bastiat was ready to use another word for the sentiment, but was not given one to work with. If we wish to call such ideals by another name, I am ready to do so.
      Originally posted by sordavie View Post
      I don't see how I could be "parroting" anything.
      Eh, maybe it's only me who would have inhibitions against starting a thread titled with inaccuracy. I wouldn't quote an article that makes (even slightly) non-factual statements, when I could just as easily quote solely the factual source.

      sigpic
      "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
      something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe

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      • #33
        Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

        Originally posted by SilentSunshine View Post
        Eh, maybe it's only me who would have inhibitions against starting a thread titled with inaccuracy. I wouldn't quote an article that makes (even slightly) non-factual statements, when I could just as easily quote solely the factual source.
        Wait, are you dismissing an article because the summarized results are 1% different than the base results? In the case of this poll that is a rounding error of such small significance compared to the fact that more than half of Republicans believe things that are completely untrue and contrary to recorded history.
        |TG-6th|Snooggums

        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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        • #34
          Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

          Originally posted by snooggums View Post
          Wait, are you dismissing an article because the summarized results are 1% different than the base results? In the case of this poll that is a rounding error of such small significance compared to the fact that more than half of Republicans believe things that are completely untrue and contrary to recorded history.
          I posted separate links too. I could be that the author of the first link had a different data set than what was in the second link. Or maybe they came from the same data set with different rounding specificity. In any case, I'm sure 1% difference is more than the margin of error for the poll.

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          • #35
            Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

            According to Marx, who's essay was under discussion, socialism is the phase a capitalist society must first undergo before it can transform in to a communism. For Marx, communism and socialism are mutually exclusive. One is not a type of the other, the other is not a type of the former, and neither are types of some more general theory he gives a name to.

            If you're willing to dispense with labels like 'socialist' and such, great. We can start a thread discussing the various policies of Obama and whether they're good or not independent of name calling. That's the real issue after all. But you must not slip back in to name calling. For instance, a lot of people say that Obama's policies amount to a dissolution of liberty. But unless you explain exactly what's mean by that and how Obama's policies do that, you're back to name calling - just with another name.

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            • #36
              Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

              how did you guys get to marx from the anti-christ? o.O lol


              - -

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              • #37
                Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                The initial post had one link. That site claimed the Harris Poll as reference. I did not say I'd dismiss it. I said that if I could get the relevant information from a source that does not make inaccurate (although minorly so) claims, I would do that. When reports cannot get numbers, hard facts, correct, they do decrease their credibility with me, but I wouldn't dismiss them on a minor count.

                I think the point of "name calling" should be addressed. If I've stolen something from you, I think you could call me a thief with reason. Would that be name-calling? I'd say that's truth-calling. For an example, "con-artist" has a bad connotation and if I call someone that without legitimate reason, that would be name-calling. If I gave examples of the person's behavior and said he was a con-artist, then either the facts I stated or the definition of con-artist could be argued. What if I "arbitrarily" pointed out faults in the reasoning or logic of others? Would that not be similar to the spirit of name-calling? You've "called" me on a few things. "...But you can use such technical terms so loosely. You do this often in other threads." I don't mind being called things I am, but to be called a name-caller for telling what I feel is true, I do not particularly like.

                sigpic
                "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
                something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe

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                • #38
                  Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                  Sheesh, it's obvious to anyone that understands the Book of Revelation that the Anti-Christ will appear as a Marxist.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                    Speaking of the Anti-Christ: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/...ex.html?hpt=T1

                    I wonder how different the Republican segment of the poll is from the fundie segment. I guess it would be hard to get an accurate classification of who's a fundie and who's not based on self-descriptions.

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                    • #40
                      Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                      If I were to describe general portions of X in terms of typical, easy to visualize, fractions, I would say 'a quarter of X' rather than 'six twenty fifths of X' if the actual percentage is 24%. If it's 68%, I would say 'two thirds of X', rather than 'seventeen twenty fifths of X'. If it's closer to 20%, say 22%, I'd say 'a fifth' instead of 'eleven fiftieths of X'.

                      I don't see anything wrong with such approximating - especially when the actual numbers are right there if more precision is needed. I don't know anyone who wouldn't do this normally.

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                      • #41
                        Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                        I don't mind approximations or rounding unless they claim to be specific. The first link called a "full quarter." Twenty-four percent will never be a full quarter. I'm more than willing to say it's approximately a quarter. I mentioned the inaccuracy only because I noticed it after being told how I was using precise terms (which you later says have no established definitions) too generally.

                        sigpic
                        "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
                        something which is not everything it should be." — Edgar Allan Poe

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                          Originally posted by sordavie View Post
                          From the story:

                          The intention of the group was that such acts "would intimidate and demoralize law enforcement, diminishing their ranks and rendering them ineffective," the indictment said.
                          It's incredible that someone, even a nut, could believe that. Haven't they heard of the effect of martyrs? Don't they see how cops actually react when one of their numbers are attacked? I'd rather go beat on a bee hive.
                          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                          • #43
                            Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                            Fundies aren't really a rational bunch...

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                            • #44
                              Re: A quarter of polled republicans think Obama might be the anti-christ

                              I don't recall when I learned this, but I recall as a teen being pointed at the book of Acts to see how the early Christians were "communists" (ie. directed to live communally with shared property). I think at the time it wasn't to prove that Christians were communists, but rather my own realization that "these guys are advocating communism". A quick google for "Book of Acts communist":

                              http://www.google.com/search?q=book+of+acts+communist

                              Turns up this page with quotes from Acts:

                              http://atheism.about.com/od/thebible/a/communism.htm

                              All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
                              (Acts 2:44-45)

                              There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
                              (Acts 4:34-37)
                              It also mentions:

                              This is what the Lord has commanded: Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of persons who each of you has in his tent. And the people of Israel did so; they gathered some more, some less. But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat
                              (Ex. 16:16-18)
                              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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