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  • Tea party member forced to think

    From this story http://www.cnbc.com/id/36549470/page/2/

    But in follow-up interviews, Tea Party supporters said they did not want to cut Medicare or Social Security — the biggest domestic programs, suggesting instead a focus on “waste.”

    Some defended being on Social Security while fighting big government by saying that since they had paid into the system, they deserved the benefits.

    Others could not explain the contradiction.

    “That’s a conundrum, isn’t it?” asked Jodine White, 62, of Rocklin, Calif. “I don’t know what to say. Maybe I don’t want smaller government. I guess I want smaller government and my Social Security.” She added, “I didn’t look at it from the perspective of losing things I need. I think I’ve changed my mind.”
    I always thought the Tea Party was mainly grumpy old white people that don't want to share the government with others.
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

  • #2
    Re: Tea party member forced to think

    I am not sure it is relevant but..

    My first thoughts were ..

    1) Nut
    2) Job
    3) Fear

    ..When I accidently watched this whilst (weirdly) looking up Starcraft 2 or similar, for some reason. However it is a classic example of what produces the fear within people when hearing these words, decoding them and looking into this insular world.



    I couldn't even be bothered to give it the time of day to make it a picture but weirdly the forum did it so I take it the video thing is up or God is on Mr Nutjobs' side. Btw obviously you can add plural to Mr Nutjobs', one being the distinguished presenter who is obviously blowing something.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Tea party member forced to think

      I was talking to some pro-big government coworker the other day about a promo that was run here in Texas with stimulus/bailout money. It was like cash for clunkers for home appliances, but it was a poorly run program. Anyway, I said that I would've liked to have gotten a rebate for a new microwave. Dude tried to call me a hypocrite because he knew I was not a fan of the bailout/stimulus programs. I don't see the hypocrisy. I have no direct control over whether or not the program is implemented, but if it is implemented, and my tax dollars (and future tax dollars) are spent on something I don't support, I don't have a problem trying to get as much of my tax money back through the use of those programs. Is that hypocritical?
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      • #4
        Re: Tea party member forced to think

        I think your attitude that you have no problem with trying to get as much out of the program you think is wrong in principle has to be at least a little hypocritical. You're first against the thing in principle. It gets implemented anyway (granted in part with your money). Afterward you have no problem with trying to get as much money out of the program as you can. Sounds like you're going back on your principles. But it might depend on exactly what your principles are.

        How much of your tax dollars do you think went to this particular program? A dollar? A few dollars? How much are you looking to get back? Are you really looking to just to recoup your tax dollars spend on what you conceive is a very ill thought out program or are you looking to profit from the program? If it's just the former, I think that's probably consistent with not being hypocritical. But I don't know how to go about getting just that money back. If it's the latter, I'm not so sure. It sounds like what you're saying is the latter. If it's the latter and you think people taking advantage of such programs are part of the wasteful problem that is big government, then you're being particularly hypocritical.

        Consider someone who's in principle against slavery. Suppose the government this person is a citizen of is pro slavery. They even use the tax dollars, including his, for some kind of heavily discounted first time slave owners program. Do you think it would be hypocritical for this person to go get and use one of these heavily discounted slaves? He might think to himself, "after all, while I'm in principle against this program, they've used my tax dollars to fund it, so I might as well get as much out of it as I can." I'm not asking you whether you think he's doing something morally wrong by buying and having a slave. I'm asking you whether you think he's gone against his principles by making use of this program. I'm inclined to think yes, he has.

        It may be that you're some kind of defeatist, someone who holds some ideals but thinks that practically speaking she has to do whatever to survive, including not staying true to those ideals in practice. I guess you can be a defeatist without being hypocritical. But that's because you've given up on your principles in practice. I don't know if that describes you.
        Last edited by sordavie; 04-17-2010, 09:36 AM. Reason: typo

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        • #5
          Re: Tea party member forced to think

          Some in the Tea Part are angry about government spending more money. They claim they want the government smaller. But many of those people are older and use some kind of government program they don't want touched. Some don't even seem to understand that the Medicare they are getting is a government program. I think some know and what they are mad about is their government handout might be reduced so that other can also get a handout.

          The Tea Part is a bunch of angry, scared people lashing out like a child.

          I would say you are being hypocritical only if you think government is always bad and can do no good.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tea party member forced to think

            Originally posted by sordavie View Post
            If it's the latter and you think people taking advantage of such programs are part of the wasteful problem that is big government, then you're being particularly hypocritical.
            No, I don't have a problem with the type of program. If a private organization had such a program (we've always called them raffles, where everyone puts in a certain amount of money, and then a select few get big chunks of cash or prizes, while the organization keeps funds for overhead expenses), I'd be all for it. My problem is with instituting such a program in the first place using tax dollars. Once it's in place, I have no problem with anyone taking advantage of it. I don't think it will provide as much of a benefit to our country as if everyone had held on to their tax dollars, though.
            Become a supporting member!
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            • #7
              Re: Tea party member forced to think

              That's pretty common cing. In reality you don't like the idea of it but once it happens you let go of the principle for that particular idea and use it or you just take advantage of what you see as wrong. It could be considered hypocritical yes or just vindictive. :P

              The tea party has way to much attention because of fox news. Very confused group of people that pretty much only listen to fox news. Bad idea.


              - -

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              • #8
                Re: Tea party member forced to think

                I have been forced to conclude that the majority of practitioners of ANY political viewpoint have not actually thought that viewpoint through all the way. This does not necessarily imply that the principles behind that view are good or bad, merely that you have to look somewhat harder to find someone who can explain them.

                As to Cing's scenario: Let me propose a thought experiment. There are 10 people in a group. By a vote of 6 to 4, they decide to implement a program, where each person will be taxed $10. This pool of $100 will be used to buy $60 worth of trinkets (of some kind), which will be distributed back to the 10 person group. The remaining money is not accounted for...most likely whoever is sent on the shopping trip will just pocket it.

                This is a terrible plan, right? I would never vote for it. But suppose it did get implemented anyway...are you going to refuse to take your $6 trinket when the guy gets back from the shopping trip? If you take it, you've effectively been robbed of $4. If you don't take it, you've effectively been robbed of $10. You might as well take the damn thing. And that shouldn't stop you from complaining that the plan is still terrible.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tea party member forced to think

                  Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                  I have been forced to conclude that the majority of practitioners of ANY political viewpoint have not actually thought that viewpoint through all the way. This does not necessarily imply that the principles behind that view are good or bad, merely that you have to look somewhat harder to find someone who can explain them.

                  As to Cing's scenario: Let me propose a thought experiment. There are 10 people in a group. By a vote of 6 to 4, they decide to implement a program, where each person will be taxed $10. This pool of $100 will be used to buy $60 worth of trinkets (of some kind), which will be distributed back to the 10 person group. The remaining money is not accounted for...most likely whoever is sent on the shopping trip will just pocket it.

                  This is a terrible plan, right? I would never vote for it. But suppose it did get implemented anyway...are you going to refuse to take your $6 trinket when the guy gets back from the shopping trip? If you take it, you've effectively been robbed of $4. If you don't take it, you've effectively been robbed of $10. You might as well take the damn thing. And that shouldn't stop you from complaining that the plan is still terrible.
                  A more apt comparison for government:
                  Ten people want a vital service that costs them each $12 when paid for singly but $100 in a pack of 10. They each chip in $10 tor a total of $100 and let the organizer talks the seller down to $80 and pockets the other $20 for a personal project.

                  Everyone saves $2, gets what they need and the organizer gets his little bit of pork. That's how government works.

                  I do agree that most people don't even know what their party's platform is or base their allegiance on one or two personal issues like abortion while ignoring all the other stuff the party does that may or may not match the party's platform.
                  |TG-6th|Snooggums

                  Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Tea party member forced to think

                    My point is not that all group projects are bad. I'm sure there are some that are beneficial. My point is that even when the group project is unequivocally bad, you don't necessarily make it better by skipping your part of the proceeds. It just gets even worse. So it is possible to complain that a group project is bad while still enjoying the fruits of that project, without being a hypocrite.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Tea party member forced to think

                      Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                      A more apt comparison for government:
                      Ten people want a vital service that costs them each $12 when paid for singly but $100 in a pack of 10. They each chip in $10 tor a total of $100 and let the organizer talks the seller down to $80 and pockets the other $20 for a personal project.
                      If only government always worked that way! lol. That supposition excludes the possibilities they might bargain for $8 or less individually (that could save them at least $2 each off the government program) and that they might decide it's not necessary for them to purchase the "vital" service from someone else at all.


                      People ought to know the wasted tax money versus the money that provides them services. After that, they can decide if those services are ones they actually desire and whether they want to be collectively forced to participate indefinitely in similar programs.

                      sigpic
                      "The true genius shudders at incompleteness - and usually prefers silence to saying
                      something which is not everything it should be." ó Edgar Allan Poe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Tea party member forced to think

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                        I have been forced to conclude that the majority of practitioners of ANY political viewpoint have not actually thought that viewpoint through all the way. This does not necessarily imply that the principles behind that view are good or bad, merely that you have to look somewhat harder to find someone who can explain them.
                        There are degrees of ignorance and irrantionality. I'm worried you are working towards "why worry about the beam in your brother's eye when there is a mote in your own eye".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Tea party member forced to think

                          Originally posted by RandomGuy View Post
                          There are degrees of ignorance and irrantionality. I'm worried you are working towards "why worry about the beam in your brother's eye when there is a mote in your own eye".
                          I said this before, to Sordavie I believe, but it's a matter of it being my money and not the government's job to do certain things that people should be doing for themselves. We have charities, churches and other private organizations already set up to help out people that can't afford certain things, why should my hard earned money go towards rebating someone else's microwave oven?

                          On a related note, I'm a federal employee. I'm a union member. I'm often complaining about the government raising taxes and increasing spending, and yet, I send my own money to a group that lobbies for more government spending in a particular area (namely, my salary). I feel this is closer to hypocrisy than taking advantage of a government program that you agree with, and yet, I still am able to rationalize it in the same way any civil servant's salary is justified.
                          Become a supporting member!
                          Buy a Tactical Duck!
                          Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
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                          • #14
                            Re: Tea party member forced to think

                            Originally posted by SilentSunshine View Post
                            People ought to know the wasted tax money versus the money that provides them services. After that, they can decide if those services are ones they actually desire and whether they want to be collectively forced to participate indefinitely in similar programs.
                            So they should only be part of the village only when it benefits them?
                            Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Tea party member forced to think

                              Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                              I have been forced to conclude that the majority of practitioners of ANY political viewpoint have not actually thought that viewpoint through all the way. This does not necessarily imply that the principles behind that view are good or bad, merely that you have to look somewhat harder to find someone who can explain them.
                              n

                              Quite right. But in the case of the Tea Party the amount of outrage seems to be way over the top. It is almost comical. And there isn't anybody that can explain their position. It seems irrational.
                              Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                              - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                              - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                              - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                              - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                              - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                              - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                              Comment

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