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One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

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  • One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...M4OTMyZGRjMjY=

  • #2
    Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

    Good read.

    When the author states "This section of the book is an almost perfect example of epistemic closure" what is he saying? I read several definitions of epistemic closure and it sounds like he is saying "Because they know x everything must follow from x". So since they know or believe certain things about the world global warming can't be true because it goes against what they know. So they look for everything that disproves global warming.

    Or am I completely wrong?
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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    • #3
      Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

      A quote from a rebuttal by Mark Levin the author of the book in question.

      Reading his post, one would think they’re all a bunch of kooks and frauds. He knows this because Scientific American did the hard work of taking a small sample of the group and contacting them. Now, how scientific is that?
      Bold mine.

      Wow.

      I think the rest of the article kinda proves Manzi's point.
      Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

        Well epistemic closure is the thesis that knowledge is closed under entailment. To say that knowledge is closed under entailment is to say something like the following:

        If S knows P, P entails Q, S recognizes that P entails Q, and S deduces Q from P, then S knows Q. (Where S is some subject and P and Q are some declarative statements.)

        There are a number of ways epistemologists try to state the principle, but roughly the idea is that if you know something is true and you recognize its entailments, then automatically you know the entailments are true. Most philosophers think the principle is probably true, but with a very rigorous understanding of what counts as entailment.

        In this context, Manzi's using the phrase "epistemic closure" in a derisive way. Manzi sees Levin using the following methodology: Levin thinks he knows some stuff, he thinks some other stuff follows from it, then by claiming epistemic closure, he claims this other stuff is true without giving any additional evidence or looking at possible countervailing evidence. That's bad methodology.

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        • #5
          Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

          Having never heard of Epistemic Closure before reading his article, my mind automatically supplied one based on context.

          After looking up what Epistemic Closure is supposed to mean officially, it doesn't seem that Manzi is using this meaning. And he did specify that he was referring to a "plain English" meaning rather than a technical meaning, so I suspect my guessed meaning might be closer to what he actually meant anyway.

          Here's what I think he meant: An epistemic system does not contain all true knowledge, just all knowledge known by a particular thinker (in this case Mark Levin), whether or not that knowledge is actually true. By calling Levin's system a closed system, Manzi implies that the logical deductions Levin draws from his beliefs are influenced only by Levin's beliefs, and not by any outside factual basis for those beliefs. Thus even when countervailing evidence exists, it cannot factor into Levin's deductions because it is outside the closed Epistemic system.

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          • #6
            Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

            http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...sing.html#more

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            • #7
              Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

              An interesting read. I have a couple of conservative talk radio channels on my car radio and Levin is one of those guys I tend to turn off a couple minutes into a rant, esp. if he's dressing down a caller and refusing to allow the caller to address Levin's claims. Levin could never survive the Sandbox, where opponents get to have their full say and he can't chop them off with the press of a button.
              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

                MOST conservative talkshow hosts or guests could never survive a thorough analysis of their claims, whether it be because they don't have the caller johnny-on-the-spot or can't misrepresent what they're saying or cut them off to monologue for 10 minutes about freedom and "thats what makes America great" (ala Sean Hannity). Heck, I see thorough dress-down picking apart of Jonah Goldberg stories run in NRO weekly on Fark by amatures.

                <04:11:24> *** You are now talking in channel: "TFP - Task Force Proteus"
                <04:16:25> "|TG-XV| Tralic": this channel is so gay
                DICE needs to make a comical boxing glove attached to a spring punch the player in the face 40% of the time they get into a helicopter or jet.

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                • #9
                  Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

                  Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                  An interesting read. I have a couple of conservative talk radio channels on my car radio and Levin is one of those guys I tend to turn off a couple minutes into a rant, esp. if he's dressing down a caller and refusing to allow the caller to address Levin's claims. Levin could never survive the Sandbox, where opponents get to have their full say and he can't chop them off with the press of a button.
                  I have to agree. If commercial conservative talk radio was an Internet forum, Lavin would be a bitter troll of the highest order.
                  Do or do not, there is no try....
                  -- Yoda, Dagobah

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                  • #10
                    Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

                    So, in other words, AGW is simply fact and you are a/an ( insert epithet } if you don't agree.
                    Glad we cleared that up.
                    You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
                    So that when they turn their backs on you,
                    You'll get the chance to put the knife in.Pink Floyd "Dogs"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

                      Originally posted by CallousDisregard View Post
                      So, in other words, AGW is simply fact and you are a/an ( insert epithet } if you don't agree.
                      Glad we cleared that up.
                      That's...not really what he said at all. Manzi wasn't taking issue with Levin for the viewpoint Levin held; he was taking issue with the vacuous way Levin supported that viewpoint.

                      Who exactly are you accusing with that sarcastic line? I don't quite get what you're referring to.

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                      • #12
                        Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

                        sorry i was lil drunk
                        You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
                        So that when they turn their backs on you,
                        You'll get the chance to put the knife in.Pink Floyd "Dogs"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

                          Originally posted by CallousDisregard View Post
                          sorry i was lil drunk
                          http://www.dorktower.com/2009/04/30/...8-2009-fui-ii/
                          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: One of the Harshes Conservative on Conservative Smackdowns I've Read in a While

                            Instead of the term 'epistemic closure' which, as a piece of technical terminology, means something completely different than how it's used in the article, we use the term 'Agnotology', meaning "Culturally constructed ignorance, purposefully created by special interest groups working hard to create confusion and suppress the truth."

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