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  • Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

    U.S.’s Toughest Immigration Law Is Signed in Arizona

    PHOENIX — Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed the nation’s toughest bill on illegal immigration into law on Friday. Its aim is to identify, prosecute and deport illegal immigrants.

    The move unleashed immediate protests and reignited the divisive battle over immigration reform nationally.

    Even before she signed the bill at an afternoon news conference here, President Obama strongly criticized it.

    Speaking at a naturalization ceremony for 24 active-duty service members in the Rose Garden, he called for a federal overhaul of immigration laws, which Congressional leaders signaled they were preparing to take up soon, to avoid “irresponsibility by others.”

    The Arizona law, he added, threatened “to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and our communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe.”

    The law, which proponents and critics alike said was the broadest and strictest immigration measure in generations, would make the failure to carry immigration documents a crime and give the police broad power to detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally. Opponents have called it an open invitation for harassment and discrimination against Hispanics regardless of their citizenship status.


    This law has already raised some questions about it's Constitutionality.

    Law Profs On Arizona Immigration Bill: It’s Unconstitutional

    By now you may have heard about a controversial immigration law passed in Arizona that makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally.

    The law grants police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. The measure was criticized Friday by President Barack Obama, who asked the Justice Department to research the law.

    It sounded to the Law Blog like we were heading toward a big federalism showdown. So we turned to Karl Manheim of Loyola Law School in Los Angeles and Erwin Chemerinsky of UC Irvine Law to pregame it for us. Their response: the law is DOA.

    The Arizona law appears to be “facially unconstitutional,” Manheim said. “States have no power to pass immigration laws because it’s an attribute of foreign affairs. Just as states can’t have their own foreign policies or enter into treaties, they can’t have their own immigration laws either.”
    Arizona immigration law is 'moral and social sin:' Faith leaders

    Rev. Jim Wallis, the evangelical leader of Sojourners, says,

    The law signed today by Arizona Gov. Brewer is a social and racial sin, and should be denounced as such by people of faith and conscience across the nation. It is not just about Arizona, but about all of us, and about what kind of country we want to be. It is not only mean-spirited, it will be ineffective and will only serve to further divide communities in Arizona, making everyone more fearful and less safe. This radical new measure, which crosses many moral and legal lines, is a clear demonstration of the fundamental mistake of separating enforcement from comprehensive immigration reform. Enforcement without reform of the system is merely cruel. Enforcement without compassion is immoral. Enforcement that breaks up families is unacceptable. This law will make it illegal to love your neighbor in Arizona, and will force us to disobey Jesus and his gospel. We will not comply."
    What bothers me the most about this law is it's broad language and expansion of police powers - wich includes the term "reasonable suspicion". I'm opposed to most laws that do this regardless of their intent - wich will clearly be abused by police - as will almost any law that offers them more power in the name of public safety.

    Let me speak about the broader issue of illegal immigration. Can anyone imagine the US government going around the country rounding up everyone who is illegal, fracturing families, and deporting these people. That just has Japenese internment camp written all over it and sounds fascist and unamerican. There has to be some kind of amnesty plan to just allow them to stay in the US. It was the failure of the US government to properly secure the border that caused this problem in the first place. This amnesty would have to coincide with the US-Mexican border being secured once and for all to make this plan acceptable. For decades our government has relentlessly tried to maintain an empire in every possible corner of the world, maybe securing the border of our nation is more important than that.
    Last edited by mp40x; 04-24-2010, 10:44 AM.
    |TG-X| mp40x



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  • #2
    Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

    The problem I have with this is it gives people like Sheriff Joe carte blanche to CONTINUE doing the racial targetting that he's famous for, with possibly no repercussions. Maricopa County has given something like 20 million so far in wrongful imprisonment, arrest, harrasment, etc civil suits because of Arpaio's goons (for they are, he goes out an presses a few hundred to be deputies for public show of force in his "illegal roundups") and I see this as giving him further broad powers. He's already on the record for specifically coming in and arresting people under "reasonable suspicion" for simply listening to latin music in your car or talking in Spanish on the street, what next? Plus, he has a stranglehold on his local news and political support, as his position is elected rather than appointed.

    <04:11:24> *** You are now talking in channel: "TFP - Task Force Proteus"
    <04:16:25> "|TG-XV| Tralic": this channel is so gay
    DICE needs to make a comical boxing glove attached to a spring punch the player in the face 40% of the time they get into a helicopter or jet.

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    • #3
      Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

      This is simply insane. Arizona is now a police state basically.


      - -

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      • #4
        Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

        If I was a cop in Arizona I would start stopping little old white ladies and men and ask for their papers assuming they are illegal immigrants from eastern Europe. I would quickly get fired of course.
        I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

          There is a problem with illegal immigration. The federal government is doing nothing productive regarding this. Regardless of the value of this law, something does in fact need to be done. Fracturing families of illegal immigrants, I feel sympathy for it, but how does that give an individual the right to break the law? If I rob a bank and go to jail, that sure fractures my family. Perhaps they should just let me off.

          A child born in America should not automatically be an American citizen. There should be some consideration for the mothers citizenship. People say immigrants do the jobs Americans are "Too Good" to touch. Sure they are, for cash, paid under the table, at a fraction of the fair rate. They need to crack down on these employers.

          This law in Arizona may not be appropriate, but it sure is getting people to pay more attention to the problem.
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

            Your are silly. Why should the mothers nationality have any bearing? I don't think anybody should be a citizen until they prove themselves worthy. How 'bout them apples?

            A problem doesn't require you become a police state. Think about what this law allows. We are becoming afraid of a process that built this great country. Silly, silly, silly.
            I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

              I think they're trying to make a statement more than anything. The problems down South are far greater than most of your Northern minds can comprehend. I just went to Mexico 2 weeks ago. I live only a couple hours away. It's a VERY real problem, and something the Federal government has paid little attention to. It's something the rest of the nation has paid little attention to. A little recount of my trip across the border:

              Only about 30 minutes in, I saw a nice brand new Mustang Cobra decked out, with no plates, and limo tint on the windows. He was doing about 130 or so. My gf (who is from Mexico...we were going to see her parents), said that's a drug trafficker. They completely own the place down there. It's lawless. The cops are powerless to do anything about it, so the "Narcos" have free reign to do as they please.

              That night, we went to a night club. Really nice place with great music and TONS of hotties. We were there maybe an hour, when the manager came to the table next to us and ran a bunch of girls off. Mind you this place required you make reservations and pay a bunch of money to sit at a table to begin with. The girls got up and walked away without question. In comes 2 gentlemen by themselves. The place starts clearing out, just as the band gets going. It was a couple of the drug bosses. So we got the hell out of there ourselves. My friends were seriously concerned about these punks nabbing this gringo (yours truly) for ransom.

              On our way back to her house that night, I saw a cop standing guard over a big house. He was a municipal policeman, yet armed with an M-16. My gf explained to me that municipal cops aren't allowed to have guns due to a ludicrous federal law. Only the state and national police can be armed. She said, this is an obvious sign that he was standing guard over a drug house or some other drug related shenanigans. He was bought off as many cops are there.

              On our way back home, she pointed out a bridge over the highway in the little town of Sabinas. She said she's seen people hung there before. The traffickers were trying to intimidate the locals.

              It's really like an anarchist "Wild West" down there right now. All of this is RIGHT next to us too. It's more important than ever to ensure our border's protection. The rancher in Arizona getting shot to death on his own land was probably the last straw for Arizona. I can completely understand their frustration. Illegal immigration is rampant around here.

              Sure many people have pure intentions of wanting to simply make a better life for themselves, however, they KNOWINGLY broke the law coming here, while others had to wait in line. I actually dated an illegal once (I found out later), and she was breaking laws left and right. She was stubborn in that she wanted to drive, yet didn't have insurance. I told her to ride the bus if she couldn't get insurance, or I'd take her most places. She even got really sick once, and went to the local university hospital. She had a bone infection. Totally got free care. Never had to pay a dime. Got surgery and everything. I may have cared about her, but she made me realize just how real the problem is. These illegals know EVERY way to milk our system, and are making a mockery out of it. Once I found out she was illegal, I told her she needed to go back home, and apply for a visa the proper way, BEFORE she gets busted and gets banned for 8 years.

              Come live on the border for a while to gather a true assessment of the problem. Until then, it's very hard for most people to grasp the scope of the problem. Arizona had to get tough.
              "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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              • #8
                Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                So the real issue is how profitable drugs are, obviously.

                I don't have much sympathy for illegals, having spent 11 months away from my wife, to get my stuff together the right way, to come to this country. Having said that, the agriculture business in Cali would probably collapse if we purged illegals. A solution needs to be found. The first step is to stabilize Mexico IMO, and that starts with modified drug policy.
                Do or do not, there is no try....
                -- Yoda, Dagobah

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                  War.monger: what, exactly, do you think a place like Maricopa County is going to do with "reasonable cause"? Anyone with a Hispanic name or appearance is going to have to carry ID or risk being randomly stopped on the street and arrested. For doing nothing.
                  I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                    Razcsak, I disagree. Anybody in Maricopa County who has 8 people piled into a small sedan, with a refrigerator on the roof, and a trailer with random crap on it, is going to have to show ID. Not some lady coming home from work. Seriously, the immigration problem there is beyond anything you can fathom up north. Doesn't justify the new law, but after living there for a few years, I can kinda understand how it has come to this.


                    People should honestly be carrying ID anyways though. It seems like a pretty standard thing to do in the 21st century...

                    Most the people I have "met" that "Don't have no ID" are gangbangers, or people up to no good. Just some food for thought! :P
                    |TG-X|Turkish

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                    • #11
                      Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                      Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
                      War.monger: what, exactly, do you think a place like Maricopa County is going to do with "reasonable cause"? Anyone with a Hispanic name or appearance is going to have to carry ID or risk being randomly stopped on the street and arrested. For doing nothing.
                      It's not going to be that way. I was born and raised in a place where I am the minority. We're overwhelmingly Hispanic here. The cops don't have time to mess with any random Hispanic as you're envisioning. Turkish is right. They have obvious signs they can see. Trust me, many of the illegals are VERY obvious. The smart ones lay low and really work hard to stay out of trouble. Many of them don't cause any problems and are very good people. However, there also many of them who make it quite known what's going on, and they rub it in our faces. This isn't a race issue. You can throw the race card if you prefer, but as I've previously stated, what's going on here is tough to understand unless you experience it firsthand. Also, most of the cops/sheriff's/border patrol/etc here are also Hispanic, so I honestly believe they're up to the task at hand without getting distracted by racism.

                      Sure the law seems pretty harsh, and probably could have been written in a a far superior way, but you have to try and see it from their point of view. At least it's gotten national attention to the problem, so hopefully they tweak the new law a bit to make necessary improvements. This is an issue that really deserves MUCH more attention than we've been seeing.

                      This is typical news for our neighbor, Ciuad Juarez, which is RIGHT across the river from El Paso, Texas.
                      http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-a...,4986340.story
                      According to Mexican government statistics, 22,700 people have been killed in the last 3 1/2 years. I believe that's worse than Iraq given the time span. And that's within walking distance to a MAJOR American city! This IS a very real threat and we have to do something about it. A big start is dealing with our illegal population, who are a major part of the trafficker's operations. Not everyone is quite as innocent as you might believe.

                      @Gun: Sorry you had to spend so much time away from your wife. That had to be tough. But muchos props for doing things the right way. I can totally see why you have little sympathy for illegals.
                      "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                        Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                        It's not going to be that way. I was born and raised in a place where I am the minority. We're overwhelmingly Hispanic here. The cops don't have time to mess with any random Hispanic as you're envisioning.
                        Which is why there are stories like Arpaio to be investigated over alleged violations
                        Racial-profiling inquiry stems from immigration sweeps

                        Officials from the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division notified Sheriff Joe Arpaio on Tuesday that they had begun the investigation, which will focus on whether deputies are engaging in "patterns or practices of discriminatory police practices and unconstitutional searches and seizures."
                        ...
                        The lawmakers said Arpaio had exceeded the limits of a federal program that gives local police federal immigration-enforcement powers by ordering deputies to "scour" Latino neighborhoods looking for illegal immigrants based on skin color.
                        Arpaio, who was easily re-elected to a fifth term in November, called the investigation politically motivated and vowed to continue to arrest illegal immigrants.
                        And
                        In October 2009, the Department of Homeland Security removed the authority of Arpaio's 160 federally trained deputies to make immigration arrests in the field. Despite the actions of the Department of Homeland Security, Arpaio has maintained that he will still pursue illegal aliens under Arizona state law
                        He's been under investigation by the US Justice Dep. and the FBI for about a year now because of abuses of power and flagrantly violating federal law to uphold his own brand of justice.

                        And some of the problems of this... response times to any kind of crime has increased dramatically. MCSO fails to clear cases, easy cases. Arpaio refuses to go after violent criminals and sex offenders, citing a lack of human resources to take care of these things. Instead, he does these illegal sweeps and jails potheads, and gets re-elected for appearing tough on crime.


                        As far as people using the "but they're here illegally, so they're all criminals" canard, I offer you this:
                        Businesses who are knowingly hiring these illegals are also committing a federal crime. They view it worth their while to pay a small fine and occaisionally lose some workers, as long as that doesn't affect their bottom line as much. These businesses frequently transport the illegals to and from work, or sometimes across the border, as well.

                        If we start hitting businesses who hire illegal workers where it hurts (taking away their licenses to operate, fining them LARGE amounts of money, jailing the owners, etc) it will have a far greater effect than stopping a truckload of workers. They'l refuse to hire undocumented workers for fear of running afoul of Federal regulations, and part of the ways and reasons they come here will dry up.
                        Last edited by Bisclaveret; 04-25-2010, 05:28 AM.

                        <04:11:24> *** You are now talking in channel: "TFP - Task Force Proteus"
                        <04:16:25> "|TG-XV| Tralic": this channel is so gay
                        DICE needs to make a comical boxing glove attached to a spring punch the player in the face 40% of the time they get into a helicopter or jet.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                          If we start hitting businesses who hire illegal workers where it hurts (taking away their licenses to operate, fining them LARGE amounts of money, jailing the owners, etc) it will have a far greater effect than stopping a truckload of workers. They'l refuse to hire undocumented workers for fear of running afoul of Federal regulations, and part of the ways and reasons they come here will dry up.
                          We were doing that.
                          We did in 1986 and not much happened.
                          It also means that lots of illegals get caught and deported, thereby fracturing families and creating public sympathy.
                          Amnesty ?
                          You thought people were rude over health care ?
                          Well let me tell you that allowing 20-30 million more people onto the public health care rolls is going to make the { fill in epithet here } Tea Party people go absolutely crazy.
                          We need immigration in this country but it needs to be at least semi-logical and based on the public good.

                          The idea the United States cannot secure it's borders until we fix all of Mexico's problem is a little far-fetched.
                          You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
                          So that when they turn their backs on you,
                          You'll get the chance to put the knife in.Pink Floyd "Dogs"

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                          • #14
                            Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                            All we have to do is come up with a much better immigration policy.

                            First understand that almost nobody like illegal immigration. The illegal immigrants don't like it. Almost none of the people hiring them like it (except a few evil employers). Those living close to the border don't like it. The countries they are coming from don't like it. But it continues to happen for real reasons that are not going away.

                            Then recognize and admit that most of the problem is coming from Central/South America and Mexico.

                            Then set up a program that allows basically any body that wants to come and work do it. When they get over and decide they want to live here let them do it easily and without much hassle.

                            Continue to fix the health care system. If we had a single payer then southern border states would pay far less to support these people. Northern state would have to fork over money to help provide services for these people. That would get a real and balanced discussion going about the situation.

                            This will kill the people smuggling groups, which have strong ties to the drug smuggling. The only people that will try to cross the border illegally are those we really do want to keep out. So that allows us to deal much stronger with those people.

                            People like those in the Tea Party is only making the situation worse because no rational discussion is going on. It is just a bunch of stupid, contradicting slogans that are often so wrong as to be comical.
                            I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Arizona Passes Controversial Immigration Law

                              ordering deputies to "scour" Latino neighborhoods looking for illegal immigrants based on skin color
                              LOL. That's the most ridiculous complaint I've seen in a while. Where then, to be politically-correct, should they be looking for illegal immigrants from Mexico? Black neighborhoods where Mexicans aren't liked or welcomed? White neighborhoods where they aren't liked, might be welcomed anyway, but nobody speaks a lick of Spanish?

                              I suppose to appease these fools they should start checking Caucasians or Negroids to see if they're illegal immigrants from Mexico.

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