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  • 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

    News Video:
    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/cri...girl-kill.html
    Detroit police are offering the family of 7-year-old Ayana Jones their condolences for the child's death during a police raid. They are now investigating the circumstances surrounding the killing.
    I am appalled. No, not at the police. Not at the officer who shot the child.
    I am appalled at the responses of people both related to the incident and to those posting about it after it's circulation onto News sites.


    The Officers were attempting a raid on a murder suspect, and entered their home mistakenly. Upon entering, a woman got into a scuffle with the Officer, and his gun went off, killing the child.
    They were attempting a raid on a murder suspect, so I would say it's safe to assume they had guns ready on entering, and when a woman 'attacked' the Officer, she caused him to accidentally pull the trigger.

    And they say it's the Officer's fault?

  • #2
    Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

    For once, it was in the apprehension of a violent crime suspect and not 'possession'. Where is the suggestion that it was the wrong home other than the comments?
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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    • #3
      Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

      Not that many articles of substance have been released yet, most news sources are running the very short AP article. And, once talk of a lawsuit starts the police will no longer comment. What's more interesting is that A&E was filming this raid as part of their reality based show The First 48. I've seen almost every episode of this series, it's the only reality based show I watch. I like it, because to me, it's REAL police work - actually going after violent criminals instead of the phony drug war that wastes so many valuable police resources. The one thing that I noticed is that the episodes filmed in Detroit are quite different than in other cities. The Detroit police almost always use the SWAT team when searching for suspects, and they are very militaristic in their approach. As opposed to, say Memphis, where it's more of a old fashoined style, very laid back and operating mostly during daytime hours and very rarely using SWAT.

      In this case the police raided the home at around 1:00 AM, that in and of itself was a recipe for disaster. The police must have known that there were other people in the home including children, to charge in guns drawn in the middle of the night and using flash bangs was not neccesary. There are many different ways to apprehend a suspect, it's not always the best approach to bust down the door with SWAT, especially when there are other people in the home. They could have staked-out the home and observed and waited until daylight. From what I've seen on The First 48, Detroit police almost always use militaristic tactics and excessive force.

      The most detailed article that I have found is from the Detroit Free Press.

      Grenade's use in lethal raid questioned, defended
      |TG-X| mp40x



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      • #4
        Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

        Originally posted by mp40x View Post
        In this case the police raided the home at around 1:00 AM, that in and of itself was a recipe for disaster. The police must have known that there were other people in the home including children, to charge in guns drawn in the middle of the night and using flash bangs was not neccesary. There are many different ways to apprehend a suspect, it's not always the best approach to bust down the door with SWAT, especially when there are other people in the home. They could have staked-out the home and observed and waited until daylight. From what I've seen on The First 48, Detroit almost always uses militaristic tactics and excessive force.
        In police action I completely agree with the quote in blue, and I thought that barring immediate threat waiting it out was the case in most areas.
        |TG-6th|Snooggums

        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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        • #5
          Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

          Originally posted by Celestial1 View Post
          The Officers were attempting a raid on a murder suspect, and entered their home mistakenly. Upon entering, a woman got into a scuffle with the Officer, and his gun went off, killing the child.
          They were attempting a raid on a murder suspect, so I would say it's safe to assume they had guns ready on entering, and when a woman 'attacked' the Officer, she caused him to accidentally pull the trigger.
          Well, all of that is in question now.

          Fieger files lawsuits in Aiyana's shooting death

          Southfield attorney Geoffrey Fieger today announced the filing of two lawsuits – one in state court, one in federal court – alleging civil rights violations and a conspiracy to cover up the circumstances of the Sunday shooting death of 7-year-old Aiyana Stanley-Jones during a raid by Detroit police.

          During a news conference at his office with the girl’s family present, Fieger also cited a mystery man who Fieger said stopped by his law office Monday morning to show him video of the deadly police raid. Fieger said the video is sharply at odds with the Detroit Police version of events.

          Fieger asked city leaders, including Detroit Mayor Dave Bing and Police Chief Warren Evans, to apologize to the family and admit wrongdoing by Detroit Police when the girl was accidentally shot to death during a raid to arrest a man in an unrelated homicide.

          “This investigation should have been over Sunday morning,” Fieger said. “The people of Detroit have got to believe that the police will protect them and not kill them.”

          Police officials have expressed remorse for Aiyana’s death, while also noting that police have conducted similar raids on many occasions without the kind of tragic outcome that resulted Sunday. Police have asked Michigan State Police to investigate the episode. Detroit Police have said they will conduct their own, internal investigation into how the raid was conducted.

          Fieger said the girl, who was asleep on the couch with her grandmother by a front window at about 12:40 a.m. Sunday, was severely burned by a flash-bang concussion grenade police threw through the window moments before entering the house in search of a homicide suspect. The girl was fatally shot in the neck in the moments after the grenade was thrown inside. It remains unclear how the gun went off, a subject that is currently under dispute.

          Police initially said Sunday that the gun accidentally went off after an officer entered the Detroit duplex and tussled with 47-year-old Mertilla Jones, the child’s grandmother. Later Sunday, a police official used more benign language to describe the grandmother’s alleged actions, saying there was some sort of contact between Jones and the officer.

          At today’s news conference, Jones repeated that she had no physical contact with any of the officers.

          Fieger, who said Monday that he had been shown video of the police raid, offered more detail today. He said a man, who he would not identify, stopped by his office Monday and showed him video, which did not appear to be professionally shot, of the police raid. Fieger contends the gunshot that followed the flash-bang grenade was fired by an officer outside the home, not inside, and was not the result of an altercation with the grandmother.

          Fieger would not say if the man with the video was a police officer or a civilian, but he indicated that he was not part of an A&E TV film crew that was documenting the police raid.

          Macomb County Medical Examiner Daniel Spitz confirmed he'll be conducting an autopsy on Aiyana later today. He was hired privately by the family. Detroit Free Press.
          Something else that is interesting:

          Aiyana's cousin, Mark Robinson, said he was walking the family's dogs when police grabbed him and threw him to the ground.

          "I told them, 'There are children in the house. There are children in the house,'" Robinson told reporters at the news conference Tuesday. USA Today.
          Press conference with the families attorney, it's pretty damning toward the police.



          Originally posted by Celestial1 View Post
          And they say it's the Officer's fault?
          Well, it is the officers fault and that of the department as a whole, even if the officer accidentally discharged his weapon. The excessive force and military tactics used were not representative of the threat, wich appears to have been no threat at all. It would be nice if the police would just come out and state the truth about the incident, but that will never happen.There would have been a lawsuit in this case even if the girl was not shot and killed, as she was badly burned by the flash-bang thrown through the window. There would be so much more outrage about this if it happened in white-suburbia versus black inner-city Detroit.
          |TG-X| mp40x



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          • #6
            Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

            Originally posted by mp40x View Post
            The one thing that I noticed is that the episodes filmed in Detroit are quite different than in other cities. The Detroit police almost always use the SWAT team when searching for suspects, and they are very militaristic in their approach. As opposed to, say Memphis, where it's more of a old fashoined style, very laid back and operating mostly during daytime hours and very rarely using SWAT.
            There have been a number of reports of the sharp increase in the use of SWAT teams, and in Federal funding being distributed to fund the creation and maintenance of same. It's gotten to the point where towns of 10,000 or so have their own SWAT teams, which to me is utterly ludicrous and a clear misuse of public money. I don't know how a comparison could be made, but I'd be curious to see the relative frequency of bystander injuries in SWAT team raids vs. regular police raids.




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            • #7
              Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

              What is the difference between SWAT raids and "regular" police raids?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                Originally posted by Gill View Post
                What is the difference between SWAT raids and "regular" police raids?
                Swat are like special forces for police, originally developed for fighting armed criminals in bank robberies, hostage situations, etc they have small unit teamwork tactics, more firepower and varied equipment well beyond a regular officer. They generally operate in small teams and do aggressive raids on locations when standoffs don't work.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT
                |TG-6th|Snooggums

                Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                • #9
                  Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                  There's another lawsuit in the Detroit area involving the use of flash-bangs. Read this story, it's just so ridiculous.

                  Southfield couple suing cops over raid tactics at home

                  And the use of the flash-bang grenades in the Marmelshtein raid was "entirely appropriate," he said.
                  But a federal judge disagreed.
                  "No reasonable law enforcement officer would have considered a confused elderly couple to be capable of producing the kind of tense and rapidly evolving uncertain situation which would require 10 police officers to make split-second decisions, including the use of two flash-bang devices," U.S. District Judge Julian Cook said in September in refusing Southfield's request to dismiss the suit.
                  The city has appealed to the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals.
                  Southfield cops began investigating the couple after neighbors complained about traffic at the home, suspecting drug trafficking. A check of their trash yielded traces of marijuana, so police got a search warrant.
                  Police said they burst into the house after the couple refused to answer the door.
                  In the moments that followed, the husband was knocked to the ground. Goodman says he was punched and kicked, which police deny.
                  Goodman said police found a few crumbs of marijuana in an adult son's sock drawer.
                  A military style raid reminiscent of the surge in Iraq and what do they find? A few crumbs of marijuana. That is so awesome, good job guys!



                  Leonid Marmelshtein says he was injured in a Southfield police raid in 2004. Police said they burst in after the Marmelshteins refused to answer the door.

                  Leonid and Arlene Marmelshtein were sitting down to dinner when the Southfield cops burst into their home in December 2004 looking for marijuana.

                  After battering down their front door, the cops tossed in two flash-bang grenades and knocked Leonid Marmelshtein, a 69-year-old Russian immigrant, to the ground.
                  |TG-X| mp40x



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                  • #10
                    Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                    I'm sorry, Snoogums, I had intended that question to be somewhat rhetorical. The only difference I can imagine between a "SWAT raid" and a so-called "regular police raid" is that one team specifically trains for it and possesses specialized equipment for it, while the patrol officers do not. In either case, a raid is a raid.

                    Questions:
                    1. Are these flashbangs the best tool for achieving surprise and the apprehension of the suspects inside?
                    1. Would CS gas work better? What is the criteria needed for using flashbangs versus pumping the house full of CS?
                    1. Is Detroit SWAT simply not very good at their job?
                    1. Has this sort of accident occurred before? If so, how many times?
                    1. How many times have flashbangs been used without harm to the suspected dangerous residents in a home versus temporary/permanent injury occurring?
                    1. Are injuries in SWAT raids indicative of "miltary-style raids" or indicative of the dangerous scenarios that SWAT responds to?
                    1. Does SWAT serve its purpose in defusing potentially-dangerous scenarios?
                    1. Which will cause more injury: highly-trained teams that specialize in raids or regular police officers who don't specifically train for these scenarios?
                    1. Which could cause more harm: a flashbang or a full-on shootout in a CQB situation?


                    Just questions to think about, get the discussion in this thread going. I'm hoping Cing chimes in, perhaps giving us some information from our resident subject matter expert, consider he's law enforcement.

                    Also, the judge's opinion is dangerous. Never assume someone is harmless. I think we can all make the reasonable conclusion that elderly citizens can pull the trigger of a handgun/rifle just as easily as a younger person.

                    http://www.wkrg.com/alabama/article/...-2009_1-29-pm/

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                    • #11
                      Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                      I'm... I guess I did something wrong with the list BB code. :P

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                        Originally posted by Gill View Post
                        I'm sorry, Snoogums, I had intended that question to be somewhat rhetorical. The only difference I can imagine between a "SWAT raid" and a so-called "regular police raid" is that one team specifically trains for it and possesses specialized equipment for it, while the patrol officers do not. In either case, a raid is a raid.
                        Sure, a SWAT raid is the same as a regular police raid like NASCAR and Lawnmower racing are both racing.

                        Police raids generally include announcement, lighter weaponry, rarely special equipment like tear gas and while there is an expectation of resistance there is generally not an expectation of extreme resistance. SWAT teams were developed to assault well defended aggressive criminals who are already aware and acting violently that the police were not able to handle on their own, now they are being used to surprise people in their sleep for non-violent possession crimes. Clearly both are raids but both are completely different in scope and one is being sued where it shouldn't.
                        |TG-6th|Snooggums

                        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                          I believe different cities have different criteria for their SWAT teams to be employed. Colorado Springs PD uses their SWAT (it's called something different... Tactical Enforcement Unit or something) specifically for entrenched suspects and "armed and dangerous" felony arrest raids. It seems that Detroit SWAT was responding to such a situation, but entered the wrong house... always a horrible tactical error. Piss-poor planning? Lack of rehearsal? Just plain mistake? Regardless, it cost a little girl her life.

                          Responding to the second part (I'm assuming you're referring to the second article, unrelated to the 7 yr. old being killed): how does suspected marijuana drug trafficking constitute as a "non-violent possession crime" and - I'm inferring something from your words, I may be wrong - a free pass for police officers to be complacent? The type of drug involved shouldn't matter. The complaint was that neighbors believed that there was some sort of illicit behavior occurring, the investigation provided enough suspicion that a judge signed a search warrant, and when the Southfield PD went to perform the raid, the occupants refused to respond to the warrant. All I'm saying is that I don't see that this is a proper example of what you fear is occurring.

                          What I do agree with is that a paramilitary-type force that is designed to be used in extreme situations should be employed with caution. From what I learned during citizen classes with the CSPD, they have this mindset. Departments nationwide can be and probably are of a much more substandard mindset.

                          That being said... in regards to Detroid PD, I've heard that it isn't the best police department to be working for. They have some problems. This tidbit of information being from when I was seeking law enforcement positions across the country.

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                          • #14
                            Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                            Originally posted by Gill View Post
                            I believe different cities have different criteria for their SWAT teams to be employed. Colorado Springs PD uses their SWAT (it's called something different... Tactical Enforcement Unit or something) specifically for entrenched suspects and "armed and dangerous" felony arrest raids. It seems that Detroit SWAT was responding to such a situation, but entered the wrong house... always a horrible tactical error. Piss-poor planning? Lack of rehearsal? Just plain mistake? Regardless, it cost a little girl her life.
                            Where were the reports of violence from the location they were assaulting? Someone reported to be somewhere with no active police intervention at the time is not 'entrenched'.

                            Responding to the second part (I'm assuming you're referring to the second article, unrelated to the 7 yr. old being killed): how does suspected marijuana drug trafficking constitute as a "non-violent possession crime" and - I'm inferring something from your words, I may be wrong - a free pass for police officers to be complacent? The type of drug involved shouldn't matter. The complaint was that neighbors believed that there was some sort of illicit behavior occurring, the investigation provided enough suspicion that a judge signed a search warrant, and when the Southfield PD went to perform the raid, the occupants refused to respond to the warrant. All I'm saying is that I don't see that this is a proper example of what you fear is occurring.
                            Police don't need to break down someone's door for non-violent crimes to avoid complacency. Both examples are examples of wrong responses by the police. Highway patrol officers know that every stop might be violent but they don't shoot out the tires and throw flash bangs into every vehicle they stop because not every action by police needs to be a military operation.

                            The 7 year old girl is a perfect example:
                            It was for capturing a murder suspect who didn't even have a warrant out for murder, just a suspect:
                            Police obtained the "high-risk search warrant" based on intelligence, and it was approved by the prosecutor and a magistrate, Godbee said. "Because of the ruthless and violent nature of the suspect in this case, it was determined that it would be in the best interest of public safety to execute the search warrant as soon as possible and detain the suspect ... while we sought a murder warrant."
                            As to your list of ridiculous questions:
                            1. Are these flashbangs the best tool for achieving surprise and the apprehension of the suspects inside? - Why was surprise needed? Flashbangs are used for people who are already aware the police are coming to disorient them and hinder their defense. Rushing into the house also achieves this when they don't know the police are coming.

                            1. Would CS gas work better? What is the criteria needed for using flashbangs versus pumping the house full of CS? - Why not a third option: Neither gas or flash bangs. Neither are necessary during a raid, they are used for people who are already actively resisting police capture.

                            1. Is Detroit SWAT simply not very good at their job? - I don't know, I do know they are being used wrong. They are a hammer trying to put cotton in a pillow.

                            1. Has this sort of accident occurred before? If so, how many times? - There doesn't have to be an accident for it to be the wrong approach. If I slap everyone who asks me for my driver's license and one time I hit a cop does it mean all the other slaps were ok?

                            1. How many times have flashbangs been used without harm to the suspected dangerous residents in a home versus temporary/permanent injury occurring? - See the last question.

                            1. Are injuries in SWAT raids indicative of "miltary-style raids" or indicative of the dangerous scenarios that SWAT responds to? - When it involves the wrong house because they are raiding a location that doesn't have an active resistance to police then it is clearly the military style raids because a 7 year old on a couch in the wrong apartment is not a dangerous situation.

                            1. Does SWAT serve its purpose in defusing potentially-dangerous scenarios? - When they are defusing actively resisting violent offenders like bank robbers, drug trade criminals who have already resisted police intervention, domestic abusers threatening hostages and other actively violent offenders and the SWAT defuses that behavior then SWAT serves a purpose. They do not serve the purpose when they raid homes for possession or enter the wrong house when apprehending violent crime suspects.

                            1. Which will cause more injury: highly-trained teams that specialize in raids or regular police officers who don't specifically train for these scenarios? - Even less injuries come from not trying to violently raid the homes of people who are basically guilty of tax evasion (drug possession). 'These scenarios' for SWAT teams should be actively resisting violent...ok I think you get the picture.

                            1. Which could cause more harm: a flashbang or a full-on shootout in a CQB situation? - How about a third option of a few words of encouragement to surrender?
                            |TG-6th|Snooggums

                            Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                            • #15
                              Re: 7-y.o. girl killed during Police Raid

                              Originally posted by Gill View Post
                              The only difference I can imagine between a "SWAT raid" and a so-called "regular police raid" is that one team specifically trains for it and possesses specialized equipment for it, while the patrol officers do not. In either case, a raid is a raid.
                              I'm going to use a paper published by the Cato Institute written by Radley Balko about this topic.

                              Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America

                              The most obvious problem with the militarization of civilian policing is that the military and the police have two distinctly different tasks. The military’s job is to seek out, overpower, and destroy an enemy. Though soldiers attempt to avoid them, collateral casualties are accepted as inevitable. Police, on the other hand, are charged with “keeping the peace,” or “to protect and serve.” Their job is to protect the rights of the individuals who live in the communities they serve, not to annihilate an enemy. Former Reagan administration official Lawrence Korb put it more succinctly: soldiers are “trained to vaporize, not Mirandize.”114

                              Given that civilian police now tote military equipment, get military training, and embrace military culture and values, it shouldn’t be surprising when officers begin to act like soldiers, treat civilians like combatants, and tread on private property as if it were part of a battlefield. Of course, it’s hard to overlook the fact that the soldiering-up of civilian police forces is taking place as part of the larger War on Drugs, which grows more saturated with war imagery, tactics, and phraseology every day.
                              Originally posted by Gill View Post
                              Are these flashbangs the best tool for achieving surprise and the apprehension of the suspects inside?
                              Absolutely not, they are a military product that should not be used by the police on citizens, except in the most extraordinary circumstances.

                              In the 1997 Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, raid on the home of John Hirko, police knocked, announced their presence, broke down the door, and tossed a flashbang grenade, “all within a few seconds,” according to trial transcripts reported in the Allentown Morning Call.245 That’s indirect defiance of a 1992 Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision finding a 10- to 15-second pause insufficient. Police shot Hirko 11 times, most of them in the back. Once the police stopped firing, a SWAT officer threw a second flashbang in Hirko’s direction, setting fire to both Hirko and his home. Hirko’s body was burned beyond recognition.246 In a lawsuit filed by Hirko’s estate against the city and police, experts testified that the disorienting effects of the grenade and its deployment in such close proximity to the alleged announcement, along with the lack of clear police insignia on the black, military-style uniforms would make most anyone unable to determine whether they were being invaded by police or unlawful intruders. In 2004, a federal jury found the SWAT team guilty of violating Hirko’s civil rights.247 The city of Bethlehem settled with Hirko’s estate for $8 million.248 Just months earlier, Bethlehem police had broken down the door of another apartment on a drug warrant. After handcuffing a half-dressed woman in front of her sleeping toddler, they realized they’d made a mistake.
                              Originally posted by Gill View Post
                              Has this sort of accident occurred before? If so, how many times?
                              This type of thing happens all the time, the paper I posted has countless examples.

                              Ismael Mena. On September 29, 1999, a Denver SWAT team executed a no-knock drug raid on Mena’s home. Mena, a Mexican immigrant, believed he was being robbed and confronted the SWAT team with a gun. Police said they fired the eight shots that killed Mena only after Mena ignored repeated warnings to drop his weapon and first fired at them. Mena’s family says police never announced themselves, and that it was the police who fired first.318

                              Police later discovered they had raided the wrong home, on the basis of bad information from a confidential informant.319 They found no drugs in Mena’s house, nor were any found in his system.
                              This example is a little different, but it's indicative of the violent and confrontational nature of these raids.

                              Originally posted by Gill View Post
                              Are injuries in SWAT raids indicative of "miltary-style raids" or indicative of the dangerous scenarios that SWAT responds to?
                              The raids themselves create the violence in many cases.

                              Because SWAT raids escalate the violence associated with executing a search warrant, they not only increase the odds of unintended civilian casualties, but they can lead—and have led—to tragic consequences for police officers, too. The volatility of these raids means that the slightest of errors—not just in ensuring that the information on the warrants is correct but in the actual execution of the raids—can be catastrophic for everyone involved.
                              Originally posted by Gill View Post
                              Does SWAT serve its purpose in defusing potentially-dangerous scenarios?
                              Well, in some cases, yes. But, overwhelmingly they are used on a daily basis for other purposes, such as drug raids.

                              The most obvious criticism of paramilitary drug raids is that, contrary to assertions from proponents that they minimize the risk of violence, they actually escalate provocation and bring unnecessary violence to what would otherwise be a routine, nonviolent police procedure. SWAT teams typically serve drug warrants just before dawn, or late at night. They enter residences unannounced, or just seconds after announcing. Targets, then, are suddenly awoken from sleep, and confronted with the prospect that their homes are being invaded. Police sometimes deploy diversionary devices such as flashbang grenades, designed to cause temporary blindness and deafness, intentionally compounding the confusion.
                              Originally posted by Gill View Post
                              Which will cause more injury: highly-trained teams that specialize in raids or regular police officers who don't specifically train for these scenarios?
                              SWAT teams do more harm than good, as they are most often used outside there intended scope.

                              But despite the American public’s fascinationwith SWAT, until the 1980s, actual deployments of the paramilitary units were still largely confined to extraordinary, emergency situations such as hostage takings, barricades, hijackings, or prison escapes. Though the total number of SWAT teams gradually increased throughout the 1970s, they were mostly limited to larger, more urbanized areas, and the terms surrounding their deployment were still for the most part narrowly and appropriately defined. That changed in the 1980s.
                              The Rise of Military Policing

                              The election of Ronald Reagan in 1980 brought new funding, equipment, and a more active drug-policing role for paramilitary police units across the country. Reagan’s new offensive in the War on Drugs involved a more confrontational, militaristic approach to combating the drug supply, a policy enthusiastically embraced by Congress.25 During the next 10 years, with prodding from the White House, Congress paved the way to widespread military-style policing by carving yawning drug war exceptions to the Posse Comitatus Act, the Civil War–era law prohibiting the use of the military for civilian policing. These new exceptions allowed nearly unlimited sharing of drug interdiction intelligence, training, tactics, technology, and weaponry between the Pentagon and federal, state, and local police departments.
                              Originally posted by Gill View Post
                              Also, the judge's opinion is dangerous. Never assume someone is harmless. I think we can all make the reasonable conclusion that elderly citizens can pull the trigger of a handgun/rifle just as easily as a younger person.
                              No, the judges decision supports the rights of the individual and not the state or the police, something wich has been sorely lacking for quite some time in the judiciary. I applaude the judges decision, here we have at least one rational judge.

                              http://www.wkrg.com/alabama/article/...-2009_1-29-pm/

                              Those people in the house were just victims, the police instigated the violent confrontation. The suspect told the police he had marijuana in the house, the man who got shot and killed was his elderly father. Maybe they should not have done a violent military style no-knock raid knowing that there were other people in the house.
                              |TG-X| mp40x



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