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Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

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  • Should the government lie to us and get away with it?



    The story about the librarian at the end is particularly interesting. According to the judge, it's illegal to tell even your lawyer that you've been served a secret search warrant.
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  • #2
    Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

    Crazy! I can't believe the idiots in power wanted to not only institute the "Fairness Doctrine" (which is a stupid stupid law), but apply it to the internet?! Are we becoming like China? I can't believe there are people in the government who would want to regulate the internet. That is just an insult to our Constitution!
    "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

      Well, I've got at least 70 years to live. It's going to be an interesting 70 years.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

        Originally posted by DrBeat View Post
        Well, I've got at least 70 years to live. It's going to be an interesting 70 years.
        It is good to see such optimism in today's youth.
        You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
        So that when they turn their backs on you,
        You'll get the chance to put the knife in.Pink Floyd "Dogs"

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

          Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
          Crazy! I can't believe the idiots in power wanted to not only institute the "Fairness Doctrine" (which is a stupid stupid law), but apply it to the internet?! Are we becoming like China? I can't believe there are people in the government who would want to regulate the internet. That is just an insult to our Constitution!
          The Constitution is just toilet paper to most in government. It's used to justify their bloody deeds but otherwise ignored whenever it's inconvenient.
          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

            Call me the ultimate cynic, but I'm of the firm belief that, as scratch said, the constitution is meaningless these days. Through our own apathy and ineptitude as a nation, we continue to elect wave upon wave of morally corrupt and ethically ambiguous leaders who are in the business for no other purpose than to feed their egos and wallets (which comes first is anyone's choice). Its gone so far that there is absolutely no hope of fixing it. Elect just, fair, and righteous leaders? Sure, and then watch them get squashed by the profiteering machine that is our government, or more likely, simply become a part of it and be no better than what we have.

            You want to fix our government? Cut their salaries to a pittance. Provide them with only the tools they need. These people are supposed to be doing this for the people, right? So why the hell do they need four houses paid for by lobbyist cash? Speaking of which, wipe out campaign contributions, lobbyist deals, contract benefits, etc. Put these politicians on the same level as the people they serve. Make them truly accountable to their constituency. No more backroom deals. No more private sessions.

            Then lets see. Lets see how hard working these senators would be if they had to provide results in order to keep their jobs. Lets see how baseless they could be if we had a level of transparency to allow us to know what is going on. Lets see how quick they would be to volunteer if they knew that being a politician meant 65k a year minus health benefits and had to juggle bills like the rest of us do.

            Trash the whole thing and start over. We're being fed-exed to hell in a hand cart, it's a slow process but we're creeping ever closer.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

              I don't see them working to make the actual salary for the job. That's just a bonus to them. For money, the real payoff is the consultant jobs with their contributors they'll get after they leave office. It's kind of hard to regulate that. And as long as they have the power to hand out tons of pork, someone will find a way to reward them for getting a piece of it.

              As part of feeding their ego, they also like to hang around with their buddies in the same business (either in DC or in other countries' seats of government, including the UN) and become insulated from their constituents. In fact, I was just reading how the big parties want to balance between candidates that do what their constituents want and candidates who will suck up to the power centers of the legislature to have better connections and make the party more powerful. The latter means elected officians end up moving to the center. Republicans become RINOs. (I don't know what the equivalent for Dems are called.)

              I think the solution is to get rid of representatives and go to "Direct Representation", with something wired in to prevent minority abuse (similar to the Bill of Rights). The current system does NOT protect minorities, it just grants more power to special interests.
              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                I agree 100% with Ferris there has to be a change but it wont happen anytime soon because people are too in love with the story their governments have fed them for years. If it ever does happen it would have to be a revolution of sorts, but who knows what reaction will come from the public when they really learn how far the rabbit hole really goes :P.

                For example: "sorry mam your daughter/husband/mother has died in a pointless war and we murdered thousands of people to get some encroaching laws past so we can step on your liberties and rights as a human being to a fairly tale that is your constitution" something like that :).

                Its funny how this stuff seems like a conspiracy theory... our governments wouldn't put is in mortal danger to make us subside to their every whim.



                When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. ~ Jimi Hendrix

                And isn't it a bad thing to be deceived about the truth, and a good thing to know what the truth is? For I assume that by knowing the truth you mean knowing things as they really are. ~ Plato

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                  In truth politicians don't do it for the money. Their salary is pretty lame as it is. What they earned raising funds just to campaign for those positions is much more than what they'll earn in office. The only reason they run for election is because of the power.

                  Also I'd hate to say it but the Constitution is open to interpretation and sadly the only interpretation that matters is those that we feel have the worst judgement. Lobbyists do need more oversight though. By forcing them to cut back down to the size of minority issues, they'd all be represented much better. Also, I'd opt for routine votes of no confidence in legislators. Out with the bad in with the good.

                  However saying the government can't lie is silly. That's like saying people in general shouldn't lie. Granted it would probably be nice if everyone didn't lie, but it's not going to happen. Saying that an FBI agent can't lie to interrogate is just a crap argument. Let's say that police officers can't break the speed limit or run red lights to catch a criminal doing the same. The government saying "We don't torture" would be a fair case but lies like this always happen. It's not something relegated to the government alone. I'm not too happy about that lie. The whole argument saying that healthcare is expressedly given in the constitution is a crap argument. I can't believe a judge and supposed news analyst isn't familiar with the elastic clause. The government is given the same notion of oversight to healthcare and managing the people's wellbeing as it is in providing a national defense (same paragraph actually). People need to stop looking to the constitution as if it is some strict document. As far a legal documents go, the constitution is so poorly written in that it is not explicit. It is a implicit document through and through. I am of the firm belief that the government should balance the equality of rights and wills of the people.

                  "The government may only do what the constitution allows it to do" - Andrew Napolitano
                  "The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof." -The Constitution, section 8, clause 18
                  Didn't we understand this enough with the inception of a National Bank?

                  I will agree though that the rights such as freedom of speech fall under a different category, they are outlined by the bill of rights after all, which is apart of our constitution. And they are rights that the government should not be able to take away under any circumstances. The patriot act is crap, and I disagree with it now just as much as I did then.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                    Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
                    The only reason they run for election is because of the power.
                    Power is not the final goal, either. It's ego. They want to be seen as your savior. Power is just a means to that end.

                    I'd opt for routine votes of no confidence in legislators. Out with the bad in with the good.
                    Elections are expensive. If you're gonna do that, just eliminate the representative. It's not like we need them anymore, with light-speed communication over thousands of miles replacing paper messaging by horse on muddy roads that would take weeks. http://www.directrep.org/

                    However saying the government can't lie is silly. That's like saying people in general shouldn't lie.
                    That's not the issue. The issue is the asymmetric consequences. Government gets away with it. Citizens are thrown in prison for long periods. Take his example of the Martha Stewart case. What if the FBI agent had to sit in the cell next to Martha? He lied, too!
                    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                      The thing about lying is everybody does it, usually once a day. We lie to our family, our wives, bosses, employees, followers, leaders. I even remember several professors of psychology claiming that the reason humans gained language is to make lying easier and more effective. Other professors carried that further to say that lying is what makes our advanced civilization even possible.

                      Lying isn't illegal either.

                      I don't think, and can't believe, lying is really the problem. Making it illegal would be like making thought illegal.

                      I think the real problem is when laws make telling the truth illegal. Because lying is only effective when you can inject the truth when appropriate. Lying only works when people don't know you are lying.
                      Im not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                        When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. ~ Jimi Hendrix



                        When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. ~ Jimi Hendrix

                        And isn't it a bad thing to be deceived about the truth, and a good thing to know what the truth is? For I assume that by knowing the truth you mean knowing things as they really are. ~ Plato

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                          The IMMI(Iceland Modern Media Initiative) could be the very stepping stone in getting the lies that our governments are telling us out in the open.


                          A vision for Iceland

                          I am proud to advise the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative's proposal to create a global safe haven for investigative journalism. I believe this proposal is a strong way of encouraging integrity and responsive government around the world, including in Iceland. In my work investigating corruption I have seen how important it is to have have robust mechanisms to get information out to the public. Iceland, with its fresh perspectives and courageous, independent people seems to be the perfect place to initiate such an effort towards global transparency and justice.
                          Eva Joly MEP


                          Our governments have too much to hide to let that happen in the northwest.
                          Last edited by Extinct; 06-14-2010, 01:42 AM. Reason: .



                          When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. ~ Jimi Hendrix

                          And isn't it a bad thing to be deceived about the truth, and a good thing to know what the truth is? For I assume that by knowing the truth you mean knowing things as they really are. ~ Plato

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                            Power, Ego, whatever. They're almost interchangeable to me in this case. There are plenty of humble senators out there that still trip over their own power. Regardless it's not a good reason.

                            Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                            Elections are expensive. If you're gonna do that, just eliminate the representative. It's not like we need them anymore, with light-speed communication over thousands of miles replacing paper messaging by horse on muddy roads that would take weeks. http://www.directrep.org/
                            It's a fair suggestion, don't get me wrong, but direct representation would be a problem. Just look at elections with electronic ballot boxes. Problems all around. We have routine elections where representatives and senators, etc. are not on the ballot. We should be able to take a vote of no confidence then. It's not perfect but it's a good interim solution I believe.

                            Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                            That's not the issue. The issue is the asymmetric consequences. Government gets away with it. Citizens are thrown in prison for long periods. Take his example of the Martha Stewart case. What if the FBI agent had to sit in the cell next to Martha? He lied, too!
                            Because she lied? No, it was the crime itself that she did. Lying to investigators is admissible in court. If the FBI agent lied on the stand he would get thrown in jail too. He was conducting an investigation, again cops speed to catch criminals, is that not the same? The FBI agent did nothing wrong. Are you saying you can't lie in investigations?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Should the government lie to us and get away with it?

                              Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                              Lying isn't illegal either.
                              Perjury is illegal.
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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