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  • Big Brother is tracking you...

    Article:
    http://gizmodo.com/5622800/our-worst...just-came-true
    It's okay for the government to plant a GPS tracker on the car parked in your driveway, tracking everywhere you go. It doesn't violate your rights, at all—according to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

    The US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers California, Arizona, Oregon and a bunch of the western US, has ruled that the government did nothing wrong when the DEA planted a GPS tracking device on Juan Pineda-Moreno's Jeep, which was parked in his driveway—without a search warrant. The underpinning for the ruling is that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in your driveway...
    ...
    The Ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals is the same court that ruled it was okay to search the contents of laptops without even a reasonable suspicion that you're doing something illegal, arguing they're just like any other dumb piece of luggage.
    Yeah....well this falls right in line with the idiotic decisions the 9th circuit has been turning out for the last 30 years or so. The big question is, now that law enforcement has the go-ahead, how far does that expand? Do you have an expectation of privacy on your mobile device, or is it legit for them to turn your GPS on your phone against you too?

  • #2
    Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

    It was a stupid decision, why the court can't make the reasonable decision. Wiretaps and listening devices require warrants, why would a GPS tracker be any different?
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

      Originally posted by snooggums View Post
      It was a stupid decision, why the court can't make the reasonable decision.
      The Ninth Appeals Circuit more or less carries the same issues as the Rocket Docket in southern Texas, except in that instead of making absurd decisions in favor of frivolous civil litigations, it's doing it for law enforcement.

      I remember that bit about the laptops. I have nothing to fear but once that opened up, I don't carry my laptop and hard drive together while traveling.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

        It’s an issue needing a Supreme Court ruling. Various state high courts have ruled such as Wisconsin “For” and NY “Against” based on state constitutional rights. Now US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruling “For” vs. US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit which ruled that placing a GPS device inside a car without a warrant violates a person's Fourth Constitutional Amendment protection against unreasonable searches.

        The interesting part of the Ninth Circuit ruling was while the driveway is part of the traditionally protected area around the home known as the "curtilage," lack of a fence, allowed access to the vehicle without the need of a warrant. Garages and fencing would work but I wonder if carports do?

        The Ninth Circuit was also responsible for a previous ruling on wiretapping On-Star services. That ruling was "against" based solely contract law and not constitutional issues (the owner paid for services not rendered).


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        • #5
          Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

          What's the difference between a GPS on your vehicle tracking your movements and a pair of law enforcement officers tailing your car conducting surveillance?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

            Originally posted by Gill View Post
            What's the difference between a GPS on your vehicle tracking your movements and a pair of law enforcement officers tailing your car conducting surveillance?
            Cost and limited man-power, police departments will never have enough cops to physically tail you and millions of other people constantly. You can still lose a tail, accidental or on-purpose, losing the GPS requires someone finding it. The NY state case went on so long that the state police had to change its batteries.

            Cell phones will automatically transmit your location to the police, allowing them to track your every movement 24 hours a day, 365 days a year (including the past). No search warrant required, just tell a judge that the information is relevant to a criminal investigation and send a request to your service provider. Anyone calling or called by the initial person of interest get sucked into the dragnet.


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

              Also Gill, law enforcement officers, espeically local law enforcement officers have limits on where they are allowed to follow you. A GPS doesnt.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                Originally posted by Gill View Post
                What's the difference between a GPS on your vehicle tracking your movements and a pair of law enforcement officers tailing your car conducting surveillance?
                The same difference between a SS card in your wallet in your wallet and your social security number being tattooed to your face.
                |TG-6th|Snooggums

                Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                  Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                  Also Gill, law enforcement officers, espeically local law enforcement officers have limits on where they are allowed to follow you. A GPS doesnt.
                  Where can't they follow your car?

                  What can a person do, legally, if they find one of these devices? Can they destroy it or use it for other purposes? Does that device become the property of the person being tracked.

                  The idea that just because they don't have the money to do it in person therefore they can't use technology doesn't hold water with me.
                  I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                  - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                  - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                  - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                  - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                  - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                  - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                    Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                    Where can't they follow your car?
                    Across jurisdictional boundaries. For example, if I'm in colorado, and I drive to utah, the local law enforcement has to get permission to cross boundaries to follow me. With GPS, they dont have to, they can just monitor it from a computer and then coordinate their investigation later.

                    But thats really not the issue. I have friends that live in very questionable areas because its all they can afford. So if I drive there in my nice car and a cop sees me and gets suspicious about a nice car in the ghetto, why should he automatically have the right to follow me home and plant a GPS device on my car in hopes that I will eventually do something wrong, without any cause or expiration date? It's crap.

                    unlimited, free access surveillance of anyone the police suspect is a dangerous line to draw. At that point, what constitutes merit for surveillance? I get a parking ticket, does that mean they can track me and issue me tickets-by-GPS for speeding? Sounds a bit far fetched, but its a real possibility since most modern GPS units, even in cell phones, will give you a fairly accurate speed readout.

                    The idea that just because they don't have the money to do it in person therefore they can't use technology doesn't hold water with me.
                    Thats not the issue. The issue is that they can come on to your property, in your driveway and plant a device on your car. Thats illegal trespass and most states require a warrant just to do that. Second, most states require a warrant to coduct technological surveillance. This overrides both of those, basically giving the police the freedom to track anyone regardless of whether or not they have probable cause.

                    The other half of the problem is that, by this ruling, you have no expectation of privacy associated with your laptop in airports, meaning that anyone can open up your laptop and browse through whatever is on it. Sure, in 99.9% of cases, they're not going to find anything incriminating. But what if you're a business executive with documents on your computer pertaining to your company's secrets (and not necessarily bad secrets, just confidential business information)? Some security guard at the airport getting paid 14 bucks an hour now has the right to just sit there and read it because he feels like it? Garbage.

                    The decision represents, at its core, a significant loss of privacy to the average person with no set limitation or boundary. The thought that "if you're doing nothing wrong, you shouldnt be scared" holds no water because law enforcement doesnt have to catch you anymore. They can now just track you UNTIL you do something wrong and then get you without even having to BE THERE. And nobody can say they dont do anything wrong ever.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                      One thing that always gets overlooked in these cases.

                      If a judge signs a warrant the cops can do pretty much anything. This case is about them doing that without a warrant, meaning they don't have to simply tell one other person what they are doing before doing it. That is what is wrong with it, the ruling saying a warrant is not required to do this.

                      If they had a warrant, put them on the car. The whole driveway BS was irrelevant to the point that it is about cops doing something they would need a warrant for if it wasn't new technology.
                      |TG-6th|Snooggums

                      Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                        Thats the funny thing snoogs, its not new technology. My parents were using a small GPS transmitter (which could have been hidden on a car with a little effort) on our sailboat when I was 13 years old. For reference, I'm 28. It's not new.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                          For the law it is new.
                          |TG-6th|Snooggums

                          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                            Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post


                            Thats not the issue. The issue is that they can come on to your property, in your driveway and plant a device on your car. Thats illegal trespass and most states require a warrant just to do that. Second, most states require a warrant to coduct technological surveillance. This overrides both of those, basically giving the police the freedom to track anyone regardless of whether or not they have probable cause.
                            I just wanted to comment on this part of your post..

                            I can't speak about CO law, but in PA, anyone can walk on your property at any time unless you have it clearly posted for no trespassing so long as there is clear access to the property in question. (Meaning you aren't climbing a fence or things of that nature) Now you as the property owner have the right to tell them to leave your property, and if they refuse you can call law enforcement and press charges. (those cases generally go nowhere as it's your word against mine but law enforcement can and will make them vacate) This doesn't even address the "right-of-way" every homeowner has to grant to the government in their property for roadwork. In PA again, I believe it's 35 or 65 feet each way from the pin marking the center of the road that is technically "public land" even though it is your property. (the actual number depends on the type of road, if it's a township road, a state road, etc)

                            Also, would law enforcement require a warrant to for example follow your twitter/facebook? Would that not be considered "technological surveillance? It's all a case of degree's, and honestly there needs to be laws written that spell out what a persons "right to privacy" is when he/she connects to a public network. (which technically GPS is) Until then the courts are flying without a net so to speak, and it's hard to blame them for making a call that should have been made by the lawmakers, but they passed the buck down the line so to speak and we, the voters have given lawmakers a pass on this, and many other topics.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Big Brother is tracking you...

                              Originally posted by Morganan View Post
                              I can't speak about CO law, but in PA, anyone can walk on your property at any time unless you have it clearly posted for no trespassing so long as there is clear access to the property in question. (Meaning you aren't climbing a fence or things of that nature) Now you as the property owner have the right to tell them to leave your property, and if they refuse you can call law enforcement and press charges. (those cases generally go nowhere as it's your word against mine but law enforcement can and will make them vacate) This doesn't even address the "right-of-way" every homeowner has to grant to the government in their property for roadwork. In PA again, I believe it's 35 or 65 feet each way from the pin marking the center of the road that is technically "public land" even though it is your property. (the actual number depends on the type of road, if it's a township road, a state road, etc)
                              The basis is usually that if a normal person can walk to your front door then a public official like an officer can too. Many times the driveway leads to the short sidewalk to the front door, so a cop being there wouldn't be an issue unless there is a posting that makes it clear, or a fence that also makes it clear. The default fence thing is just a notice that you don't want anyone on that part of your property without manually allowing access.

                              Also, would law enforcement require a warrant to for example follow your twitter/facebook?
                              If they were viewing publicly posted messages it would be like them standing on the sidewalk in front of your house while you yelled your thoughts. If they are there every day with no reason to be there, you could file a harassment complaint against the officer/department just like if they were following your online messages but it doesn't make it an automatic violation. If you had your facebook settings set to private and they either had to access it through an administrative override or by lying to get you to accept them as a friend to view the posts then they would need a warrant just like listening in on you having a conversation in your house with special equipment.

                              Would that not be considered "technological surveillance? It's all a case of degree's, and honestly there needs to be laws written that spell out what a persons "right to privacy" is when he/she connects to a public network. (which technically GPS is) Until then the courts are flying without a net so to speak, and it's hard to blame them for making a call that should have been made by the lawmakers, but they passed the buck down the line so to speak and we, the voters have given lawmakers a pass on this, and many other topics.
                              The courts need to apply the least amount of basic common sense to come to a reasonable conclusion when it is a constitutional issue and no law is in place. Obviously GPS tracking allows for tracking beyond what an officer would normally be able to do without a warrant, including remote areas of private land and doesn't necessarily indicate who was being followed since they are simply tracking the car. This is clearly a situation that should require a warrant, which isn't hard to get at all.
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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