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MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

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  • MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

    Originally posted by L10N View Post
    I did, I saw a gcd and tab targeting which is classic mmo combat.
    But that's like lamenting that the latest FPS doesn't break away from the classic controls of mouse for look and WASD for movement. Sometimes the classic is classic and used all the time because it really is as near perfection as we can get for that particular method of control.

    I did chuckle at the second devs ignorance when talking about the smuggler's cover system being the first ever in an mmo.
    Tabula Rasa (released and flunked), Stargate Worlds (Yet to be released) come to mind. I get a laugh out of them saying the entire game is voice acted. It makes me think that they've never heard of this obscure MMO released by a tiny studio... Everquest 2 by SOE. When it was released it boasted that every NPC line was voice acted.

    Granted, TOR is adding in the PC but that is dubious leap given the less than impressive system that was evident in Mass Effect. KOTOR and Jade Empire played better without the PC's role voice acted.

    Oh, what classes? Well, there are 8 total and we've seen 4. Sith's mirror is obviously Jedi. Smuggler, if not mirrored by Bounty Hunter (Don't think it is) would be Pirate (Mara Jade, Karrd and the like). Bounty Hunter would be some sort of law officer. What would then be left would be some sort of healer analog for either side and/or droids of some sort? Not thinking solely in terms of Star Wars since SW is just an amalgamation of the classical archetypes. They can choose any of those then find a SW analogue to fit as needed.
    "...the rules aren't there to enumerate what is always correct but what is always wrong..."

  • #2
    Re: Let's play a guessing game.

    Originally posted by Greyed View Post
    But that's like lamenting that the latest FPS doesn't break away from the classic controls of mouse for look and WASD for movement. Sometimes the classic is classic and used all the time because it really is as near perfection as we can get for that particular method of control.



    Tabula Rasa (released and flunked), Stargate Worlds (Yet to be released) come to mind. I get a laugh out of them saying the entire game is voice acted. It makes me think that they've never heard of this obscure MMO released by a tiny studio... Everquest 2 by SOE. When it was released it boasted that every NPC line was voice acted.

    Granted, TOR is adding in the PC but that is dubious leap given the less than impressive system that was evident in Mass Effect. KOTOR and Jade Empire played better without the PC's role voice acted.

    Oh, what classes? Well, there are 8 total and we've seen 4. Sith's mirror is obviously Jedi. Smuggler, if not mirrored by Bounty Hunter (Don't think it is) would be Pirate (Mara Jade, Karrd and the like). Bounty Hunter would be some sort of law officer. What would then be left would be some sort of healer analog for either side and/or droids of some sort? Not thinking solely in terms of Star Wars since SW is just an amalgamation of the classical archetypes. They can choose any of those then find a SW analogue to fit as needed.
    TR broke the tab target gcd standard and was simply the best mmo combat I have experienced. I would get on my level 50 sniper and go to descent to simply kill enemies because it was fun. No mmo has ever pulled me in with combat like that. Champions has an option to modify to the controls so you can target with a reticle. Granted both of these games are essentially using the same system at the core that all mmos use but instead of tabbing targets you highlight them and get sticky targeting.

    I look at the combat system as more of a universal gaming thing. We would trash action rpgs if they had that system so why do we let mmos away with it? Same with fps games compared to mmos. Just because it is a standard doesn't mean it is good. We have clearly seen that there is no reason for tab targeting to exist anymore. I mean come on planet side way back when had fps combat in an mmo scale so tech is clearly not a problem.

    If you are wondering about the imperial agent it has stealth unless they changed it in the last 6 months which is very possible.

    The video gave me the impression that they are trying to move away from holy trinity gameplay. Neither of the guys in that flashpoint video seemed to have any kind of aggro management abilities and both seemed capable of producing good damage while taking damage. I wouldn't be surprised if the last couple is more support based simply because there are players who prefer playing indirect combat roles.

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    • #3
      MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

      Splitting this out so as not to pull the other thread off topic.

      Originally posted by L10N View Post
      TR broke the tab target gcd standard and was simply the best mmo combat I have experienced.
      Actually, as you mentioned, they didn't. You could still slap tab to target and the skills were still on an action bar on the bottom with cooldowns. They hid it well, but it was still there.

      Granted both of these games are essentially using the same system at the core that all mmos use but instead of tabbing targets you highlight them and get sticky targeting.
      Right. But not everyone wants that.

      I look at the combat system as more of a universal gaming thing.
      Then you're looking at it wrong.

      We would trash action rpgs if they had that system so why do we let mmos away with it?
      Because its a different audience?

      Same with fps games compared to mmos. Just because it is a standard doesn't mean it is good. We have clearly seen that there is no reason for tab targeting to exist anymore. I mean come on planet side way back when had fps combat in an mmo scale so tech is clearly not a problem.
      Yes, but Planetside and World War II Online both were not MMORPGs. They were MMOFPS.

      Let me explain it this way. I met my wife online in an MMORPG. Seriously. We met, well introduced by her then-boyfriend, actually :icon_eek:, in Asheron's Call back in 2000 or so. Since then we have played Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, Horizons, City of Heroes, Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates, World of Warcraft and now Runes of Magic together. Now, I've played about three times more MMOs than she has (no joke, I am an MMO whore) but notice which three aren't on that list that are mentioned in this topic? Planetside and World War II Online and Tabula Rasa (all three I have played).

      How many FPSes has she ever played? 0. How many will she ever play? 0. How many action RPGs has she played (in the time I've lived with her), 1. Jade Empire and I'm not sure if that is what you mean by Action RPG. Ok, 1.5, we did get into Dungeon Siege 1 for a short time but that was more a miss than a hit.

      While you are striving for more FPS like controls, she is not and I'm content with having my FPS over <----- there while my MMO is over -----> yonder. Simply put, there are more of her who don't like that scheme and more of me who don't care enough than there are of you. Or, more specifically, more of people like her and people like me than people like you. That's not to say that different things can't be tried; Y!PP is a great example of a non-standard MMO which still appeals to a large base of the MMO population. But to look at all combat as universal is to miss the point that the audience itself is not universal and a good portion of that audience is playing precisely because it's not FPS controls.
      Last edited by Greyed; 09-13-2009, 07:08 AM.
      "...the rules aren't there to enumerate what is always correct but what is always wrong..."

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      • #4
        Re: MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

        I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying tab targeting needs to burn in hell and never come back. I just wish more mmos would offer a system like champions were you can get traditional mmo tab targeting or use a reticle and sticky targeting. I think many mmo players would actually prefer the the sticky targeting system if they got to try it as it feels much more natural and fluid.

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        • #5
          Re: MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

          You're right, I was misunderstanding you.
          "...the rules aren't there to enumerate what is always correct but what is always wrong..."

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          • #6
            Re: MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

            What is sticky targeting?


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            • #7
              Re: MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

              Sticky targeting is when you pass your reticule over a target and it locks your weapon on that target for a short time. You don't need to aim precisely at the target to keep a lock on it, just keep near, hover over the target.
              "...the rules aren't there to enumerate what is always correct but what is always wrong..."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Let's play a guessing game.

                I believe AoC gave you an option to go first person with a bow or spells, but that wasn't too successful either.

                Every MMO says they're going to 'move away from the holy trinity' but in all honesty its practically impossible to do so. In order to coordinate a group there needs to be clearly defined roles and simplified tasks. That means someone needs to soak up the damage, someone needs to keep the person taking the damage alive, and someone needs to be focused on killing the target. If you don't have clear roles then it feels like you're doing everything solo because you are doing everything yourself anyways.

                As for why there is tab/lock targeting? Lower learning curve and higher exposure. The point of an MMO is to keep the largest group of people playing for the longest possible time. If you have an FPS set up with a relatively high learning curve (be honest, how many people had perfect aim the first time they played an online FPS?) you'll eventually drive a lot of 'casual' people away. You can have the option of going to an FPS style, but there will always be a 'targeting for dummies' set up as well.

                TR didn't break the target/GCD standard. They just bent it a bit with the addition of an FPS mode. AoC did the same. Even WoW has picked up a trajectory based targeting scheme for its vehicles instead of lock targeting.
                My sanity is not in question...
                It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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                • #9
                  Re: MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

                  Given another name Sticky Targeting could be called Auto Aim, Aim Assist, or Lock On Targeting where you lock onto a target without having it directly in your sights. Essentially its not too dissimilar to tab targeting/click targeting in that you don't need exceptional twitch reflects or FPS experience to hit what you want.

                  Heh, I actually responded in the TOR thread before seeing parts of it moved here. ^_^
                  My sanity is not in question...
                  It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                  Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

                    Yeah, I tend to go on tangents quite a bit and don't always split as soon as I should.
                    "...the rules aren't there to enumerate what is always correct but what is always wrong..."

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                    • #11
                      Re: MMO controls (Split from TOR discussion)

                      Fixed it.


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