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AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

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  • AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

    Tonight Mistercris did a fine job squad leading. First we held a TG made base, taking out a lot of armor and slowing a major TR push before being over whelmed. That moment when you are manning the AV turret and realize "That's one...two...five... five sunderers? And armor? Hmmm... better keep shooooooting!" It was a fun moment for me. After that we did infantry,
    I was galaxy pilot for a lot of the time, so I can't give a ton of detail on the manuvers. But there was some very fun galaxy close air support. :)

    When he logged off I took over.

    We first held a standard triple. We held for several minutes until our friendly forces faded away leaving us outnumbered about 3-1. Starstriker did a good job using the MAX as a mobile reserve force, shifting and keeping the enemy off balance. We had good comms through it. Jan did an excellent solo run as an infiltrator, taking another point and blowing 2 generators, pulling a good number of enemies off us and opening the door for friendly armor forces to get into the base. Before we wiped I sent Jan outside to see if we could escape. He reported a deployed enemy base on our north, and it seemed too hot to try an exfiltration. We still held, but were eventually overwhelmed. We wiped, but we wiped happy, knowing we fought hard.

    Back at warp gate, we reformed for our next op, a behind the lines drop, hack a vehicle terminal, pull armor, and take out a core.

    We organized our roles, one repair sundy, one ammo sundy, three tank drivers. We had our plan in place and roles assigned before we approached the LZ. With some solid flying (if I recall by starstriker...) got us to the tower where we would pull armor... but the terminals were down. So we loaded back in the gal, tried another base and were able to pull armor. We engaged the base, and quickly destroyed the core. I believe someone pulled an ANT which was a fun choice that, looking back on it, I should have used to get a sky shield as the aircraft hit us... hind sight is 20/20!

    However, our exfiltration (via the long bridge leading south to Scared Mesa Skydock) was blocked by a large base. We tried to focus fire and take out the base bit by bit. As we were doing this the enemy began spawning armor behind us. After two or three mag riders, and a several aircraft pounding us I decided we needed a faster escape. I ordered that we roll down a hillside, sacrificing the high ground to live to fight another day. We escaped with moderate casualties. (I think one tank and one sunderer lost, so 2 tanks and 1 sundy left?). We regrouped and advanced north on the road join the massive fight that was ongoing up the road. After taking out some turrets, I realized the enemy was massing more armor than we could deal with, and ordered a retreat. Despite our best efforts we took casualties as we fell back, I think about 50%.

    Change of plans. We pulled a galaxy, and reset as infantry anti tank config. The plan was to drop on the high ground east or west of the massive armor force and flank them. After a brief disconnect, and reconnect, we deployed on fight ground and took out several pieces of armor. However, soon we started taking infantry fire from several sides. I ordered a retreat to what appeared to be a place we could get down to lower ground. I misread the map... and backed us into a corner. We were stuck with a magrider above us on one side, and a team of snipers/infantry on the other, with no escape. The medics did great, and everybody kept their cool. I called for a galaxy, and Vitamin, praise be to him, came in for the pickup. I was down, well away from the team, due to my own stupidity, so I respawned in his gal so he would have a gunner coming in hot. His galaxy, as luck would have it, was completely stock. I thought it was actually kind of funny, being evacuated by a slow galaxy piloted by the guy whose only real goal was "don't crash!" I pictured it in my mind kind of like an action-comedy where instead of a sports car the getaway car is a in 1960s Ford driven by a 10 year old who could hardly find the gas pedal. :)

    But, I shouldn't knock Vitamin, he did great and got us out of there despite a poor LZ, enemy fire from two sides, and just having come back into the game after a long absence.

    At that point it had been 30 or 40 minutes of fairly constant comabt without a wipe and I thought it was a good place to call it. Starstriker took over as I left.

    Really fun TG style action tonight. Excellent work everyone.
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

  • #2
    Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

    Thanks for leading, Garthra!

    After you left, we settled into almost exclusively base hunting, through a variety of means. This started with us pulling armour from Mao's tower then sweeping the TR's backfield for easy core kills. We found quite a few, and knocked two bases down and almost took a third before the core it was holding was automatically sent to a higher value base by the placement algorithm before we got in range. Up to this point we were getting by with an armour column roving the Indar northern seabed, relying on focus fire and some solid AA cover from Vitamin. This next base, though, was going to prove difficult to assault that way.

    The TR had built it directly into the canyon on the eastern road leading to NS Material Storage. They'd put walls and turrets on the eastern end, blocking the road right in front of a hard 90 degree corner, and it was basically impossible for us to get our vehicles to fire on those structures without walking right into a well defended chokepoint. The blueberry assistance from above the canyon wall was nullified by tight-fitting skywall defenses, and worst of all there was a constant harassment from TR Mosquitos disrupting any foothold we tried to lock down, despite excellent efforts from Vitamin to keep the sky clear. The TR defense surged with infantry reinforcements and we got chased down the canyon until we wiped under infantry fire and air strikes.

    At this point I decided I wanted to experiment with more novel approaches to base demolition. I scoped the base out myself as a stalker infiltrator, and noticed that there was a skywall module right beside their Sunderer in a position that the Xiphos turrets would be unable to hit. My plan was to split our 8 man squad into two units: a cloaked infiltrator sabotage team, and an anti-tank team. The infiltrator fireteam would sneak in, get a position where they could quickly drop the skywall with explosive bolts, and wait for the AV team to get in position. On cue, they would drop the skywall, exposing the Sunderer to fire from above, and the AV team would nullify the spawn options of the 4 or so defenders. We could then eliminate them at our leisure and pick apart the base modules.

    This failed catastrophically; the primary spoiler was a thick enemy air presence that obliterated the AV team almost immediately upon landing, combined with a lack of spawn options. The infiltrator team faired little better; I wasn't there to see how it played out, but they got spotted and half the team was killed, and the defenders started regularly sweeping the base with darklight, making it difficult to infiltrate again.

    However, we weren't giving up there. After some frustration procuring spawns from another, substantially more distant base (why is there ALWAYS a prowler when you don't want one?) we eventually got a cloaked Sunderer onto the cliff above the HIVE. From there, we sustained a mostly standard infantry assault with one or two infiltrators acting as a disruptive element within the base. In this particular case, the tight canyon and staggered wall placement of the base meant there were many available angles for infantry in a frontal assault to shoot at modules without exposing themselves to turrets, and we took down the skywall, followed by the Sunderer, and then started picking everything else apart as we went and the defense collapsed. Soon we killed the HIVE, and there was much rejoicing.

    We then switched to the Vanu backfield and started tearing down their HIVEs. The first we assaulted as mixed infantry on the ground, with a 3 man infiltrator unit spearheading the assault ahead of an AV infantry fire team. For a basically undefended base, this was a very effective approach, at least until the thrice damned Scythe showed up. You may be noticing a pattern here, where roaming enemy air cover constantly foiled our attempts to peel apart base defenses. Vitamin again took up an AA role and helped keep the Scythe off us, and we killed another HIVE.

    There was another one to the west and we went after that one; similar story to this one, but more heavily built out. The spread out, open construction made it harder to get infiltrators into good positions, and enemy air (and a few armour units) again disrupted our ability to exploit the cracks in the defenses. Frustrated, we snuck over to a nearby base, hacked the vehicle terminals, and pulled armour (with a skyguard to ward off the vultures) and this time we disassembled the base in short order. Alex stayed behind as a stalker infil and was able to snipe a few modules out in the meantime; the crossbow infiltrator is a pretty effective disruptor in a base attack!

    After this, the VS were out of HIVEs and the only ones left were to the north in TR territory. Instead of doing the sane thing and redeploying to warpgate, pulling a valk or something, and then hacking a vehicle terminal behind enemy lines, I elected to have us slip through the TR/VS front lines guns blazing. It worked out shockingly well; two skyguards put down withering AA fire, and our breakneck pace through no man's land got us through to the other side without any casualties, which was immediately spoiled by Vitamin driving his tank off a cliff once we were safe. :P

    At this point, we checked the map to see the core we wanted to kill was already gone... but ah well, the journey is more important than the destination!

    After that we started building a HIVE in the NW Indar crater, but due to low population on the server that ridiculously late hour we were unable to get it started in hostile territory. After a while spent building it out (and a few forays out of the base in armour to wreck poorly defended TR bases) I decided to call it a night at 2am in the morning.

    Some takeaways:
    • Infiltrators with crossbows--even SINGLE infiltrators--are remarkably effective at killing base modules, and make a great complement to more traditional base assault methods. They do not, however, make for a great SUSTAINED assault in many cases.
    • Bases built in open fields are more difficult to attack with infantry, not because of the approach (though that is a concern) but because they can often be more spaced out constructions. Cramped bases create more angles for infantry to exploit, open ones create large kill zones that auto turrets can easily cover and limit the angles infiltrators can engage modules from.
    • Roaming aircraft (or harassers, or liberators, or flashes, or any other vehicle that can fill a harassment/hunter role) are OBNOXIOUSLY disruptive to base assaults. Infantry in particular requires careful positioning and movement to get to positions where they can engage safely, and harassment vehicles will exploit that deliberate pace. Bring AA. Just always have AA.



    Comment


    • #3
      Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

      Originally posted by Garthra View Post
      We first held a standard triple. We held for several minutes until our friendly forces faded away leaving us outnumbered about 3-1. Starstriker did a good job using the MAX as a mobile reserve force, shifting and keeping the enemy off balance. We had good comms through it. Jan did an excellent solo run as an infiltrator, taking another point and blowing 2 generators, pulling a good number of enemies off us and opening the door for friendly armor forces to get into the base. Before we wiped I sent Jan outside to see if we could escape. He reported a deployed enemy base on our north, and it seemed too hot to try an exfiltration. We still held, but were eventually overwhelmed. We wiped, but we wiped happy, knowing we fought hard.
      I found this really interesting, actually. Rather than holding a single position statically and cede the initiative, I pushed the MAX down into the open lobby and surprised infantry coming in and denied them easy use of the lower flow. I was also able to charge the roof, or the other stairwell, to good effect. A surprise MAX around the corner is quite disruptive to an attack, and it helped keep the enemy off balance for much of the point hold. It was also relatively safe for my MAX to be the one poking down the stairs a bit, thanks to solid recon dart placement letting me know what I needed to cover and when the lobby was unsafe, and also just because the MAX was tanky enough to be able to retreat if the enemy came in force.

      Might be worth taking that into account with how we use MAX units in point holds; if we use them to clear out space periodically and take some initiative away from the attackers, we might be able to prolong our holds a bit.



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

        Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
        Some takeaways:
        • Infiltrators with crossbows--even SINGLE infiltrators--are remarkably effective at killing base modules, and make a great complement to more traditional base assault methods. They do not, however, make for a great SUSTAINED assault in many cases.
        Never thought of this being effective, noted for future use.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

          To expand on our difficulties approaching and sustaining assaults on bases behind enemy lines, this really seemed to be the primary challenge inherent in the task. Interception of our vehicles en-route, harassment while we're busy trying to deal with the base, or sudden attrition or loss of cohesion because of the lack of convenient logistics... these were the things that more often than not caused a low population base assault to falter even when we had superior numbers. The local defenses by contrast are often pretty piecemeal; we can engage the turrets at our discretion and there's usually little in the way of infantry to deal with.

          If we can find a way to more safely operate in hostile territory for those kinds of ops that'd help enormously. My thoughts:

          The most reliable way I've seen is to be running an armour column, but that's not always viable and not all bases can be usefully assaulted with armour, especially when well defended.

          What worked for us during our ops, at least after taking a beating for a while, was to have a portion of the team dedicated to keeping the AO clear for the infantry assault. Lockon missiles will keep the scythes away. They aren't going to discourage a Harasser, though, and a Harasser can wipe a squad. If we'd had a larger squad we might have been able to dedicate a fireteam to the job for a little more staying power, but as it was we only had 8 people.

          Speaking of Harassers, I wonder if that might be an option; you've got good AV available if you need it, you can keep the squad safe in transit through speed, you've got good mobility, and poorly defended HIVEs can probably be knocked out with the Harassers alone. You could build them around a Sunderer and have them serve as escorts, or you could just run a straight Harasser squad. The former gives up speed, the latter gives up logistics support.

          Cloaked flashes might be a decent option as well, for a more infiltrator heavy approach. Six infiltrators to run interference on the base, and six regular infantry to round the squad out and provide the critical heavy weapons, ammo, and medics. Such an approach would probably require logistics to be pulled on site to back it up, but for the initial infiltration or exfil that provides a very safe approach that can even sneak under base turrets if required.

          On the subject of cloaking, the ANT cloak module is interesting. The ANT can serve as a fireteam transport vehicle, and if loaded with Cortium and running the cloak module it can carry that entire crew under steal, getting same safely across open ground and to wherever they need to be in a pinch. The downside, of course, is that it requires the ANTs to be loaded with Cortium to work; ideally, this would be Cortium from the enemy's lands to mess with their own resupply, but either way it's a limited, inconvenient resource to work with. On the other hand, having ANTs fueled up and ready to go on the enemy's doorstep allows you to build your own siegeworks to shell the base and tear it down.



          Comment


          • #6
            Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

            Nice AAR! Thanks for taking the time!

            Originally posted by Garthra View Post
            I believe someone pulled an ANT which was a fun choice that, looking back on it, I should have used to get a sky shield as the aircraft hit us... hind sight is 20/20!
            Hmmm... /wheelsturning :)

            Originally posted by Garthra View Post
            I called for a galaxy, and Vitamin, praise be to him, came in for the pickup. I was down, well away from the team, due to my own stupidity, so I respawned in his gal so he would have a gunner coming in hot. His galaxy, as luck would have it, was completely stock. I thought it was actually kind of funny, being evacuated by a slow galaxy piloted by the guy whose only real goal was "don't crash!" I pictured it in my mind kind of like an action-comedy where instead of a sports car the getaway car is a in 1960s Ford driven by a 10 year old who could hardly find the gas pedal. :)

            But, I shouldn't knock Vitamin, he did great and got us out of there despite a poor LZ, enemy fire from two sides, and just having come back into the game after a long absence.
            Couldn't help but think, I (and others, Cairbr, as well as others we may have inspired, etc.) have spoiled you, my brother! haha

            No offense to Vitamin, in fact, glad to hear of him back in game!
            "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

              Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
              I found this really interesting, actually. Rather than holding a single position statically and cede the initiative, I pushed the MAX down into the open lobby and surprised infantry coming in and denied them easy use of the lower flow. I was also able to charge the roof, or the other stairwell, to good effect. A surprise MAX around the corner is quite disruptive to an attack, and it helped keep the enemy off balance for much of the point hold. It was also relatively safe for my MAX to be the one poking down the stairs a bit, thanks to solid recon dart placement letting me know what I needed to cover and when the lobby was unsafe, and also just because the MAX was tanky enough to be able to retreat if the enemy came in force.

              Might be worth taking that into account with how we use MAX units in point holds; if we use them to clear out space periodically and take some initiative away from the attackers, we might be able to prolong our holds a bit.
              Been saying things along this line for a awhile now. Think of it like a "box and one" for any of you who may have played basketball. A typical good static TG defense can be greatly enhanced by periodic sweeps of 1-2 individuals through the ground floor / outside by either a MAX or even a good, high skilled / high KDR Heavy Assault.
              "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



              Comment


              • #8
                Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

                Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                At this point I decided I wanted to experiment with more novel approaches to base demolition. I scoped the base out myself as a stalker infiltrator, and noticed that there was a skywall module right beside their Sunderer in a position that the Xiphos turrets would be unable to hit. My plan was to split our 8 man squad into two units: a cloaked infiltrator sabotage team, and an anti-tank team. The infiltrator fireteam would sneak in, get a position where they could quickly drop the skywall with explosive bolts, and wait for the AV team to get in position. On cue, they would drop the skywall, exposing the Sunderer to fire from above, and the AV team would nullify the spawn options of the 4 or so defenders. We could then eliminate them at our leisure and pick apart the base modules.

                This failed catastrophically
                Just because it failed once, doesn't mean it's a bad tactic. In fact, I think your tactic was sound. You just had bad luck of running into some smart/aware base defenders.

                Although that fact itself I believe leads into a conversation of what types of people usually are drawn to base building and defending. Based on the (admittedly little) I have seen thus far, I think you see typically the relatively smaller, more tactical/smarter outfits and players building (as well as attacking? I know we here at TG have been attacking a lot lately) and playing the new base meta. Often when I come across a base it is TAS, or RITE, or GOON, or us building it. Never PHX really. Which makes sense when you think about it. I think the base meta is attracting a certain type of player and smaller outfit focused mindset, and will ultimately bring these sort of players back into the fold. Which I suppose is Daybreak's intent? If so, good on them for recognizing and attempting to cater to a segment of the player base who have become disenfranchised with the lack of a real meta, many of whom have quit playing at this point. Look, even Vitamin has come back, maybe if we are lucky BigGaayAl will too, one day. :)

                So coming back full circle, maybe given that info, it is not a good tactic? I guess I am saying I am not sure, and it is too soon to tell. I think it depends a lot on what sort of defenders you are working against. I think that's part of what makes this base meta so interesting, it's a bit like chess with so many variables and possibilities.

                Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                Some takeaways:
                • Roaming aircraft (or harassers, or liberators, or flashes, or any other vehicle that can fill a harassment/hunter role) are OBNOXIOUSLY disruptive to base assaults. Infantry in particular requires careful positioning and movement to get to positions where they can engage safely, and harassment vehicles will exploit that deliberate pace. Bring AA. Just always have AA.
                Corollary would be, we should employ some air ourselves as a perimeter sweep when building / defending our own bases. Or put (for example) DoT or others in a couple tanks. Just depending on what assets (in terms of players / skillsets) you have at your disposal, and other conditions (terrain, etc.). Just turn them loose to seek and destroy around the perimeter autonomously, whilst you build up the base from the inside.
                "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

                  Yes I am back to back to back posting. Suck it. :p

                  Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                  To expand on our difficulties approaching and sustaining assaults on bases behind enemy lines, this really seemed to be the primary challenge inherent in the task. Interception of our vehicles en-route, harassment while we're busy trying to deal with the base, or sudden attrition or loss of cohesion because of the lack of convenient logistics... these were the things that more often than not caused a low population base assault to falter even when we had superior numbers. The local defenses by contrast are often pretty piecemeal; we can engage the turrets at our discretion and there's usually little in the way of infantry to deal with.

                  If we can find a way to more safely operate in hostile territory for those kinds of ops that'd help enormously. My thoughts:

                  The most reliable way I've seen is to be running an armour column, but that's not always viable and not all bases can be usefully assaulted with armour, especially when well defended.

                  What worked for us during our ops, at least after taking a beating for a while, was to have a portion of the team dedicated to keeping the AO clear for the infantry assault. Lockon missiles will keep the scythes away. They aren't going to discourage a Harasser, though, and a Harasser can wipe a squad. If we'd had a larger squad we might have been able to dedicate a fireteam to the job for a little more staying power, but as it was we only had 8 people.

                  Speaking of Harassers, I wonder if that might be an option; you've got good AV available if you need it, you can keep the squad safe in transit through speed, you've got good mobility, and poorly defended HIVEs can probably be knocked out with the Harassers alone. You could build them around a Sunderer and have them serve as escorts, or you could just run a straight Harasser squad. The former gives up speed, the latter gives up logistics support.

                  Cloaked flashes might be a decent option as well, for a more infiltrator heavy approach. Six infiltrators to run interference on the base, and six regular infantry to round the squad out and provide the critical heavy weapons, ammo, and medics. Such an approach would probably require logistics to be pulled on site to back it up, but for the initial infiltration or exfil that provides a very safe approach that can even sneak under base turrets if required.

                  On the subject of cloaking, the ANT cloak module is interesting. The ANT can serve as a fireteam transport vehicle, and if loaded with Cortium and running the cloak module it can carry that entire crew under steal, getting same safely across open ground and to wherever they need to be in a pinch. The downside, of course, is that it requires the ANTs to be loaded with Cortium to work; ideally, this would be Cortium from the enemy's lands to mess with their own resupply, but either way it's a limited, inconvenient resource to work with. On the other hand, having ANTs fueled up and ready to go on the enemy's doorstep allows you to build your own siegeworks to shell the base and tear it down.
                  SS my friend :), I think we, as an outfit, have become accustomed to (spoiled by?) the easy logistics of what I (and others) used to rail against by calling it the "lettuce" (lattice) system, way back when it first came out. The appeal to the lowest common denominator, spawn here, and make a bee line directly to the next flag, ho hum, boring game play that accumulates ever larger zergs to bash their masses against one another in massive slogs of ignorance, the victors of which are largely only determined by who has the most bodies to throw into the meat grinder. But this is a debate we have had before. :)

                  The problems to which you refer are a blessing in disguise, especially for TG. All we need to do is get back to basics with regard to proper logistics. We are just out of practice, as we have gotten out of touch with old institutional knowledge due to disuse. :)

                  I know that I was killed several times in a row the other day rushing for resources in my Ant (unescorted, of course). It was quite frustrating!

                  But therein lie the opportunity. Going forward, I see us getting back to the good ol' days of Project Reality .8 or thereabouts, where you will see people doing dedicated logistics roles (Bullseye comes immediately to mind!), along with proper escorts. I'm really looking forward to it!

                  EDIT: Reading your post again, I suppose you are getting the conversation started as to the best way to provide said escorts. As one of the main commentators / developers of institutional knowledge around here, I commend your efforts in that direction (You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to starstriker1 again.)!

                  Incidentally, Garthra and I (with others, obviously) had great success the other day doing basically LRRPs deep behind enemy lines as airborne infantry in the Gal and base busting. Gal gives you high mobility to move around the map as cores pop up and down, re-kit your squad as needed for the particulars of picking apart your particular target base's layout, exfiltrate and relocate MAXes, etc.

                  As I noted in another post (and has been discussed here), recon is also critical in picking apart bases. Therefore I think the Gal tactics would be enhanced by the addition of a couple guys in Bravo (or Charlie) doing advance recon on the next target.
                  "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: AAR 6/4/16 Hit and Run Operations on Indar

                    Originally posted by Randy_Shughart_ClwFL View Post
                    Just because it failed once, doesn't mean it's a bad tactic. In fact, I think your tactic was sound. You just had bad luck of running into some smart/aware base defenders.
                    The base defenders themselves were, as is often the case, short manned and not paying much attention to their surroundings. The real threat was the roving aircraft in the area (which I don't think was part of the base defense proper) which was just one or two really good pilots shredding us without any means of fighting back or respawning after getting killed. Not having AA cover or local spawns is what did that tactic in; I knew it was a dicey, high risk tactic going in, but I failed to account for outside interference.

                    In all of the base assaults that were difficult that night (and really, this is what should be expected when the server is at high population) there was ALWAYS an unexpected player disrupting our attempts to orderly disassemble a fortification. Lesson learned: you can't expect the battle space to be clean, and you can't expect the enemy to cooperate in the creation of your dream engagement.

                    And I agree 100% on having intel ahead of a base assault. You can get some of the benefit by simply dropping a ways out from the base you want to attack and observing before approach, but an infiltrator sent ahead to reconnoiter the defenses and identify a weak point will make the approach safer and more effective. It's often been my approach to get my team set up at the warpgate in a Galaxy while I speed off in a Reaver as an infiltrator to get eyes on the base before they get there, allowing me to give them drop coordinates



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