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  • [INFO] Great thread on Reddit

    Some really interesting ideas being talked about in this thread.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/c..._own_vehicles/
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  • #2
    Re: Great thread on Reddit

    Seems like an odd complaint, I'm not sure what changes have instigated the response but I can say that
    segregating what fights what where is the only way to make this game more about infantry than vehicle
    spam.

    I love vehicles and I always love my vehicle support but I'd rather tanks not be the major player in Tech Plants
    or Biolabs.

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    • #3
      Re: Great thread on Reddit

      I am not certain that the poster's assessment is correct.

      Infantry is indeed a very powerful force. It is powerful because unlike any vehicle it is highly adaptable to the situation at hand.

      The poster speaks of an experience we here at TG are not having. Here at TG over the past few weeks I have noted a significant use of combined infantry, air, and tank engagements within our own platoon(s). The problem the poster addresses has less to do with innate game imbalances than the difficulty some (many?) platoon leaders have in maintain a diverse and cohesive set of squads.

      Tanks play a role in assaulting large facilities, but they are not an essential component.

      What is essential is flexibility.
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      • #4
        Re: Great thread on Reddit

        As far as game balance I like the comments a little further down.

        I have been flying quite a bit recently and the AA is over powered right now. I am getting shot down by Maxes in under a second. Before I can react I am down and this is with no previous damage.
        I would be OK with this if I could use my Reaver as a stand off weapon like a helicopter. Peak up from behind a ridge pop off some shots and retreat. But the render distance makes this imposible. I have to get so close that the Maxs actuall see me first.
        I'm unsure what needs to be done but air right now is in a sorry state of affairs.

        Todd
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        • #5
          Re: Great thread on Reddit

          Assessment of game dynamics and weapon balance needs to take into account the issue of teamwork. Any vehicle or situation changes dramatically when it includes teamwork. Of course, not all teamwork is the same, but here in mind I have the gold standard of TG teamwork -- voice, command, cohesion, discipline.

          You can easily imagine that any player not in a team will be continually overwhelmed by team-based encounters. I think this more than anything else lies at the root of complaints about game mechanics. Most people (I suspect) simply do not play in highly effective teams, and of course, that sucks once you encounter one in a fight.

          Consider the following post from the above thread:

          When you encounter an enemy vehicle and there's nothing you can do to save yourself, it's rage inducing. Worst-case scenario: you're out in your main battle tank and an enemy ESF tears you apart, slowly or quickly, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it.

          But there's a flip side, where you're in dire trouble and a friendly vehicle happens to come along and save the day. That's awesome!

          The trouble is, the first scenario happens a lot more than the second scenario. Not because people are selfish arses, but because there's no (easy) way to communicate your need for help.
          We all know this from experience -- a vehicle on its own is an easy target.

          Regarding the complaint about armour durability. My own observations are that most armour units are uncoordinated, rush too close to a target, do not take adequate cover or retreat sufficiently far when hit, and are otherwise misused. I think the underlying issue is that many players want to be able to be reckless and independent with their vehicles.

          Any analysis needs to separate consequences for poor decisions and lack of teamwork from the issue of game mechanics
          . I suspect, but cannot prove, that most problems people are experiencing with the game and their vehicles is the result of the former. Thus the constant refrain "his xxx too easily killed my xxx".

          Other problems arise when players think they should (single-handedly) be able to overcome a collective force. Consider the irrationality of the following complaint:

          Seriously, if there's a major engagement you're going to be hard pressed to have any kind of impact when going up against 6+ bursters and god knows how many strikers.
          Seriously, if you are facing a mass of coordinated and specialized weaponry without adequate back-up than you are a fool.

          Consider the following complaint of pilots (what is it with air specialists and all the whining -- I think often they do not coordinate their attacks with proper support from ground and, of course, suffer as a result):

          I want to fly with an air wing and influence battles, but I can't because we get murdered if we spend more than 10% of our total airtime even inside a combat zone.
          Of course air is going to get wiped if the ground is not secured. This is basic military doctrine to this very day. This pilot (probably) wants the capability to fly into a hot combat zone and get away intact. Sorry, you will have to wait until infantry and armour has eliminated the majority of anti-air defences.

          Other commentators demonstrate an awareness of the point I am making herein:

          "as it stands now there is little thought put into capturing points"

          "It's not easy to coordinate ground trips and air support" (It is if you at TG)

          "People talk about how incredibly important teamwork here is. But then as soon as some guys try and go solo in a tank or aircraft, and get killed, they whine. Having several tanks around the area is VERY useful for preventing enemy movement. Get too close, and you have risk of being C4'd, but its still very useful. Sure, having one esf or just one lib in a major fight gets cut down quickly. But 7 libs can turn the tide of battle.
          Just because air/tanks are not the ultimate force they once were, does not mean that its suddenly less important than infantry."

          The reddit thread betrays a focus on individualism -- very little of the discussion mentions or takes into account how things change when acting as a highly cohesive collective.

          The mistaken assumption is that PS2 is a 'vehicle' game. It is not. It is a massive team game. The most powerful weapon is (usually) the best organized team.
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          • #6
            Re: Great thread on Reddit

            Originally posted by Toddshooter View Post
            As far as game balance I like the comments a little further down.

            I have been flying quite a bit recently and the AA is over powered right now. I am getting shot down by Maxes in under a second. Before I can react I am down and this is with no previous damage.
            I would be OK with this if I could use my Reaver as a stand off weapon like a helicopter. Peak up from behind a ridge pop off some shots and retreat. But the render distance makes this imposible. I have to get so close that the Maxs actuall see me first.
            I'm unsure what needs to be done but air right now is in a sorry state of affairs.

            Todd
            That would kind of explain why I haven't seen much air power used on other teams as well, except, you know, the GOKU and TEST pushes I see all the dang gum time.

            Then again, it could just be the Reaver. There are many times I wonder if we aren't the most durable aircraft out there because of how many times I get shot down. It could just be my skill or luck whenever I get into a dogfight with another ESF, I end up going down because I can't get away or I'm just outmaneuvered all the time. I know our Reavers are smaller, similar to helicopters, more heavily armored than the other fighters, and have the fastest afterburner speed, but those features don't seem to matter.

            Anyway, back to vehicles in general. I love my Vanguard. I don't really care about enemy vehicles because my Vanguard and all the rest of my vehicles are equipped to deal with the other faction's vehicles. Magrider? Hit him from a distance. Prowler? Same deal. Lightnings? Close distance and hit him hard. Aircraft? Use the Walker and shoot them down. Infantry? HEAT rounds solve that one, usually. Taking too much damage? Pop your shield and backpedal on out. But I'm thinking he's talking about the armor/air surges where the enemy loses a major fight and respawns, then spawns their vehicles to do a second push. The defenders are sometimes ill-equipped to deal with them.

            I think Infantry don't like or hate their vehicle support. Sure, it's nice when its around but when it isn't, there is no big deal. Just go Heavy Assault or MAX to deal with the threats. I usually find no competition for certs just because there's a massive surge coming our way and people need to die fast. Even with Sunderers, sure it's better to spawn quicker at a Sundy rather than take longer to spawn at an outpost and hike your way back. But when the Sundy dies, oh well. The only instance I can think of where there is a substantial loss of support is when the Ammo Sundy blows up. Ammo stations are pretty scarce and really limits the range of vehicles.

            God, where was I going with this....I can't remember. I don't really see the problems the original poster described on our server. We have small armor groups and air groups that do work together, but they usually pop up only during a surge. There is a lot of team work going on, not very coordinated at times, but people do work together a lot on Mattherson NC. Why? Well, if we don't, the VS and TR will overrun us. We've been the whipping boy the past couple of weeks, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

            Still can't help but feel the other two empires get all the buffs while NC just gets nerfs. :p




            "Certainly, being bombarded with 105 millimeter shells is bad. But the knowledge that you've armed your enemy thus, with your sloth and your ineptitude, unfolds in the heart like a poison." Tycho from Penny Arcade in reference to the nuke in MW2

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            • #7
              Re: Great thread on Reddit

              NC is the most versatile at the expense of specialization. The Reaver is clunky, but it has the most accurate rockets and survives a lot longer than its counterparts. The Vanguard, too, makes up for any lack of comparative mobility and ROF by being just damn hard to take down.

              Honestly, I think the factions are more or less balanced according to their particular idioms. As E-male said, it's really teamwork, population and coordination that swings a fight one way or another. I'd be more interested in seeing development discussions around facilitating that than whether or not we need to balance weapon stats or rejigger capture point mechanics.
              In game handle: Steel Scion
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              • #8
                Re: Great thread on Reddit

                Teamwork will always win over an individual. Take the air problem, nowhere in the world does a pilot fly solo in a combat zone, there is always a wing man backing them up. If two Reavers where to work on a single target it would be destoryed, be it an AA max or a tank, that target is going to go down when to air assets are working together on it. I've seen this done a few times to devastating effect with air units.

                Take a solo Reaver and deck him with AB fuel and composite armor and have him scout the targets for the area. Now bring him back, patch him up and have him do a fly-by to draw fire while the main air assets stack -up behind and come in on his heels. The 1st two pilots come in and destroy the nearest targets, cause the fire to switch to them and lead them off while the 2nd pair comes in and takes the next group and so on. They either get wise to the tactic and hunker down or they get blown away. I've been on the receiving end of this tactic on Waterson more then once and it works and works well.

                What I would really like to see is the infil have a laser pointer (like in PS1) to mark targets. Would be fun to watch the air come in on a target and know where it was deployed before they start their attack run.

                I would like to try the fly-by tactic sometime here and see if we could pull it off.

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                • #9
                  Re: Great thread on Reddit

                  I wonder if the Flak ZOE matters at all?

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                  • #10
                    Re: Great thread on Reddit

                    As far as I'm aware, the Reaver is NOT any more vulnerable than the other ESFs. The main guns hit a little bit harder, the afterburners are stronger, and the vertical thrust is a bit nicer, but they can't take any more abuse. In fact, they're arguably worse for that because of their blocky shape which makes them easier targets from a front-to-back view. They're not completely outclassed, but they're not rocking any significant advantages in most situations.

                    My view on the AA balance is basically this: AA is WAY too powerful for the logistical burden it carries. Burster MAXes can get anywhere, can be pulled pretty much instantly and for a small cost, and will proceed to almost completely deny the area to aircraft. Aircraft can only operate under extremely tight constraints... basically, stay high, use hit and run tactics, and get the hell out the moment AA starts even firing at you. Good pilots and excellent teamwork can make it happen ("follow the leader" attacks, basically like what Biytor described, work well), but IMO the balance is way off here. Being able to overcome the issue with skill and teamwork doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist.

                    It gets even worse as the battle grows in scale. Once a fight hits a certain threshold, the amount of AA present (or capable of being pulled within a span of 10 seconds) is enough to make any sort of air presence completely pointless.

                    E-Male's response of "wait for the ground forces to clear the AA" isn't viable, because as long as there is an infantry force with any sort of logistical backbone (ie, ANY spawn point) new AA can be pulled once destroyed. Making matters worse, the AA is usually at the back of the force in a relatively secure and difficult to attack area. Those MAXes are on the high ground, in a trench, by a Sunderer, and behind the advancing waves of enemy infantry. The AA typically only goes down once the ground forces have won the battle, at which point the aircraft don't have much to do.

                    What would go a long way to fixing this would be to switch the primary AA unit from the burster MAX to the Skyguard and base mounted AA turrets. The burster MAX is cheap, accessable, hard to spot and highly manueverable, making any sort of effort to specifically target them completely pointless. However, base turrets are highly visible and in known locations, giving an appropriate target for infantry to hit to be able to bring in the air support. The Skyguard is relatively expensive, has significant logistical concerns (you need a vehicle terminal and a spawn timer), and is a large target that has to manuever in relatively large areas. Skyguards and turrets are reasonable things to say "have the ground guys wipe them out first" about, where Burster MAXes are not. If Burster MAXes were only a deterrence beyond a very short range (lower projectile speed and higher spread) and the Skyguard and turret picked up the high damage, long range AA ability that MAXes currently hold, it'd go a long way to making things reasonable again.



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                    • #11
                      Re: Great thread on Reddit

                      The problem with air in this game is... It's either so utterly dominate that no one on the ground can move for the amount of aircraft around or it's has to hide because it was so dominate before it got over nerf'd.

                      The thing I see more then not is that pilots tend to be solo players more-so then any other group around, so the lack of support makes it feel that aircraft should have more power then it needs. On the other hand, ground based AA isn't really all that powerful (even in it's current state) as 90% of the aircraft you shot at get away. I do agree that the Bruster is over the top in terms of ability and the Skygaurd is more then underwhelming in it's roll. The Bruster needs less long range damage ability and be a beast up close ( take out the hover spamers in seconds ) and the Skyguard needs to be improved in all aspects ( Faster projectile speed, more damage per hit and better aiming ). The only time I pull a Skyguard is when I'm rolling with an armor column and no one else has, I think the vehicle is a piece of junk and is only good to soak damage from the real threat that is the armor I'm with.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Great thread on Reddit

                        It's unfortunately not an issue with a quick fix. Rejiggering the AA would help a ton, but the fundamental issue is that the aircraft are, as you describe, either utterly dominating the ground, or being completely zoned out by that AA. It's a pretty boring dynamic. There should be interesting ways of engaging with AA heavy areas, and interesting ways of countering an enemy air presence.

                        One thing I'd LOVE to see, for instance, is a laser guided air to ground missile that has to be guided in by infantry. If you've played Project Reality, you're probably familiar with the dynamic... ground-based spotters identify and lase targets for the aircraft, and the aircraft fly over the target area, drop munitions, and leave. It'd provide a way to engage with an AA heavy area by giving you a long range way to hit targets, but you're completely at the mercy of your spotters to do so, providing interesting gameplay for everyone on the ground both for your side and for the enemy.

                        Another great thing to happen would be to completely separate air-to-air and air-to-ground ESFs. If an A2G ESF cannot reasonably defend itself in a dogfight, they'll think twice about pulling that loadout without an escort, local AA, or both. That even helps out people caught without significant AA, both by reducing the number of rocket-spamming fighters and by forcing the air-to-ground opportunists to deal with the risk of being caught by an A2A fighter. Lots of ways to make that kind of thing happen... reduce nose-gun effectiveness against ground targets, put severe performance penalties onto rockets, provide secondary weapons for A2A that are more interesting than missiles... hell, if you're feeling extreme, make the rocket pods a primary weapon instead of a secondary. Air to ground weapons should be powerful and scary against their intended targets, but like a tank toting HE or AP rounds, they should feel very concerned about the possibility of the wrong kind of target being around the corner.



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