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  • The Primer and Hot Drops

    I don't want to clutter Emale's thread any more than I already have. So I figured we'd continue discussion here.

    Below is a little bit of context:

    The game has a feature where you can Squad Deploy on your current Squad Leader's position. This feature was implemented to allow squads to stay together through the large 6x6km map. The limitations are: The Squad Leader does not have the ability to utilize the feature, there is a 5 minute cool down for the person who utilizes the ability, while the drop pod retains some maneuverability the drop is slightly randomized, while in a drop pod you are susceptible to fires.

    Beyond this there is no limit to how many people can drop in a territory at a given time. It is possible to coordinate the use of a squad deploy feature amongst all members of a Platoon resulting in 44 drop pods raining down on a territory. It is theoretically possible, and I am currently coordinating with the NCC to create the infrastructure, to coordinate multiple platoons in such a manner.

    Abused to its utmost limitations you can theoretically drop an entire 600 man team at any one point in the map considering you first transport the 44 squad leaders safely to a location.

    =====

    My opinion is that this feature is a part of the game and the power that it potentially has from coordinated use does not imply 'exploitation' of the game rules. Others have said that it is clearly exploiting the mechanics of the game or breaking with our Primer.

    I am of the mind that assumes that if there is a space ship up above us dropping people down into a battlefield that they would not be utilizing it in an uncoordinated manner. The very fact that we are coordinating our drops for strategic and tactical dominance, I think, puts it in line, rather than at odds, with the Primer.

    Do I think SOE can improve the feature? Certainly! However I think calling it an exploit or in poor taste a bit odd when such people regularly suggest ramming, in kamikaze fashion, Aircraft with the drop pods.

  • #2
    Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

    There might be some utility here in masking our movements on the strategic map. It's not uncommon for squad leaders to deploy themselves based on the map's reported troop concentration for a sector. Bring in four guys on a barely defended outpost, and you'll be ignored if you're even noticeable amongst the clutter at all... only to suddenly turn into a full platoon once the target has been reached. That's a far cry from the enemy seeing a full platoon moving from sector to sector.



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    • #3
      Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

      I fully agree with you Wyatt. I was playing in your squad/ platoon when we first gave this a try to see if it was a viable tactic. And it very much was. I don't see this going against the primer OR the game mechanics in any way. If the devs decide at some point to limit this tactic, then they will do so. But even if they do (which I highly doubt), in the here and now, it is a viable and respectable tactic. And I'll continue treating it that way unless the game devs or Apophis condemns it.

      It seems strange to me that it even came up in the first place.

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      • #4
        Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

        Originally posted by Ytman View Post
        Abused to its utmost limitations you can theoretically drop an entire 600 man team at any one point in the map considering you first transport the 44 squad leaders safely to a location.
        This is why I suspect it will be fixed. As you've said, it's an abuse and any subtle semantics aside, that's the same as an exploit.

        I think it's less severe when only a few squad members do it, but the way it scales up so easily makes it very attractive.

        Again, I'm not convinced it will be possible in the longer term. If it becomes part of normal behaviour from enough outfits (sounds like it's going that way), it will get annoying enough to be delt with in a similar way to Instant Action.

        Originally posted by Ytman View Post
        Do I think SOE can improve the feature? Certainly! However I think calling it an exploit or in poor taste a bit odd when such people regularly suggest ramming, in kamikaze fashion, Aircraft with the drop pods.
        Hmmm. That's a bit too inflammatory for my sensibilities!

        I would only say that drop pod kills and ramming are explicitly rewarded actions in the game. I think this communicates an intended gameplay mechanic. I'm not aware of anyone in TG that regularly does this outside of targets of opportunity (if I drop and there's a lib bombing you that I can kill, I'm gonna hit it).

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        • #5
          Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

          I guess I chose a poor phrasing. Abuse in this context is not to imply breaking a rule; it is to imply using the leverage one gains from an action to it's highest extent.

          If the feature is implemented to move a person to the squad leader with the hopeful effect of keeping a squad together then is this not simply serving that purpose when extended to the larger scales?

          More teamwork shouldn't break something. That should be considered playing the game right and just because the game doesn't directly reward you for something shouldn't mean that it's illegal.

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          • #6
            Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

            I'm missing the "wrongness". As I understand it a squad leader deploys to a location, then has his squad deploy on him. Woopadoo, I can load my full squad in a galaxy and do the same thing!!! In fact I can do it with a whole platoon, or in fact many platoons. I seem to remember a certain "evil" TR outfit that did this all the friggin time. I guess maybe just maybe, there is an argument that it might be more stealthy to do this as a squad leader. Although your stealthiness will degrade the more squad leaders you add. My counter would be how often do you not see a galaxy make it to a drop point. This is even made more so when there are multiples of galaxies to shoot at. BTW this tactic is nothing new, it was done in similar fashion in all the BF games, aka "squad bombing" In fact in 2142 it was done almost exactly the same way as that game also had "drop pods"!!!!!!!!!!!! You told your squad to hold spawn "usually at the beginning of the round", while you as the squad leader snuck in to an advantageous position. Drop your beacon and presto its raining men.

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            • #7
              Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

              Originally posted by Ytman View Post
              If the feature is implemented to move a person to the squad leader with the hopeful effect of keeping a squad together then is this not simply serving that purpose when extended to the larger scales?
              I don't think so. Instant Action, as it used to work, would have been a better implementation of this. Making Alpha SL the Bravo, Charlie, and Delta SL for the sole purpose deploying on them and not to lead that particular squad is a clunky mechanism to help teamwork, if that's the intention.

              Originally posted by Ytman View Post
              More teamwork shouldn't break something. That should be considered playing the game right and just because the game doesn't directly reward you for something shouldn't mean that it's illegal.
              Agree on that point, and likewise, not everything that is rewarded in game is necessarily allowed either.

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              • #8
                Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                Im looking at this some other way im not looking at the game mechanic or what it is supose to be. If we stay with the ''story'' the squad deploy is a ship in outerspace that is waiting there for dropping people. So in that ways it's sure that anyone that would be commanding this ship WOULD coordinate the Drop if he is not dumb. Even in the Trailer of the game you see kinda the same tactic when the NC leader get to the point and drop is squad spawn beacon that's pretty much the same think. So the Squad deploy or the whole squad/platoon waiting for the beacon to drop is pretty much the same. For me if they don't want player to do it don't put it into the Trailer... But it's true that if more then 1 platoon is doing it in the same time that maybe too much but before we see someway to control it that could take time but we could by our own will stick this tactic to 1 platoon not more.

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                • #9
                  Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                  The devs altered the instant action mechanic back in the day so that it could only be used as a random battlefield insertion tool for individuals and could not be used by outfits to casually coordinate massive drops on hotspots. At the same time, they left the squad deploy mechanic largely unchanged. That would suggest that, for now at least, coordinating drops on the squad/platoon level is working as intended. I imagine that if that tactic becomes a balance problem they will change the deploy mechanics again.
                  In game handle: Steel Scion
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                  • #10
                    Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                    I don't see how this is an exploit. All it takes is a redeploy which has already been OKed by the Admin team as part of the game. This is just a redeploy when and where your SL tells you to deploy.
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                    • #11
                      Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                      As of right now, I don't have a problem with holding spawn, inserting an SL at the target, then squad deploying on him/her. Seems to be working as intended.

                      It becomes a problem if said SL was cycled through the SL position of each squad of the platoon, with the intention of bypassing the risk of sending all of the SL's to the target. Similar to a previous discussion concerning switching SL in a squad solely to avoid the spawn beacon cooldown.

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                      • #12
                        Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                        Originally posted by Steeler View Post
                        The devs altered the instant action mechanic back in the day so that it could only be used as a random battlefield insertion tool for individuals and could not be used by outfits to casually coordinate massive drops on hotspots. At the same time, they left the squad deploy mechanic largely unchanged. That would suggest that, for now at least, coordinating drops on the squad/platoon level is working as intended. I imagine that if that tactic becomes a balance problem they will change the deploy mechanics again.
                        I completely agree.

                        There are 2 different discussions on this: is it OP and is it allowed? (Now from Mindkill, yes it is allowed, but I'd like to add my thoughts in any case.)

                        Squad deploy is a half-way house in between a squad beacon and instant action. Of course, we have no issues with the reasoning behind a squad beacon, so I don't see why it should be any different for squad deploy. If you want your squad members to drop on you, it's your choice which method you use.

                        As to whether it's overpowered, well the beacon clearly has downsides that the squad deploy does not, so in my mind yes it is OP. This opinion is not reason alone for me to avoid using it anymore than I would stop using a newly added weapon that the PS2 community leans toward believing is OP. Indeed, as Steeler said, the developers changed instant action when the issues became evident but didn't touch squad deploy so, for now, it must be working as intended. Thus, the more the PS2 community uses this mechanic the faster the developers will take a second look at it and, I expect, they will change their minds and it will be fixed.

                        For the tactic Wyatt is using, I see very little difference between flying to the enemy base and calling for a squad deploy vs sneaking in as Infiltrator and calling for a squad deploy or, indeed, placing a beacon. However, my current favourite use is simply to avoid being spawn camped. Why choose the room completely surrounded by enemies when you could drop pod behind them and take out a Sundy, tank or a few infantry before you die?
                        Last edited by MrJengles; 07-10-2013, 03:11 PM.



                        |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                          Originally posted by Mindkill View Post
                          It becomes a problem if said SL was cycled through the SL position of each squad of the platoon, with the intention of bypassing the risk of sending all of the SL's to the target. Similar to a previous discussion concerning switching SL in a squad solely to avoid the spawn beacon cooldown.
                          Totally agree. That's my only concern with squad deploy.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                            In my perfect world they would have Squad Leader/Platoon Leader resources that could be spent on infrastructure to enable this instead of giving it as default. Instead of just being a 5 minute cool down it'd be somehow commoditized through another 'resource' that is gained through battle.

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Primer and Hot Drops

                              Agreed. In a perfect world. But I think the primary lesson they took from PS1 is that when people log in they want to shoot something RIGHT FRACKING NOW WHARGLBARGL. So they have to balance the design need for logistical balance with the player desire for instant g̶r̶a̶t̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ action. Log in, find your pal, spawn on his location, fun having.

                              I do think everybody spawning on a dead SL falling from the smoking wreckage of his ESF is a little questionable, but doing the occasional mass deploy as a blitzkrieg maneuver isn't going to break the game. At the moment.
                              In game handle: Steel Scion
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