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  • World Domination Series (WDS)

    Something sparked my mind during the post FNF platoon/squad leading tonight. It is the World Domination Series or WDS. SOE is pushing hard for this to be successful by giving out free items if you participate. I feel that it is important for us to take this time to discuss TG's involvement with this meta-game. Can I please get more Squad Leads and Platoon Leads ideas on this?

    I personally think that it will be helpful if we participated in this.


    Link for more information:
    https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...begins.171879/

  • #2
    Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

    I don't really see the draw, to be honest. The scores are so distant from any actions that we could take--even through the concerted efforts of the entire outfit--to be utterly meaningless. It's an alert writ large, and in fact too large--the timescales are too big, and every server participates--to the point where our individual performance isn't really relevant to the event as a whole.

    However, if the motivating power of the WDS event is really as high as it seemed during the platoon tonight, then I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the enemy was similarily obsessed with it. That might be a good way to manipulate enemy behaviour, by feinting at high scoring enemy bases to draw enemy forces off our true targets.

    Even so, I don't think pursuing WDS points for their own sake is productive. Our goals should be to get into good fights and play well, and WDS scores are only useful to that objective to the extent that they can encourage good fights.



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    • #3
      Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

      Well put Starstiker. We're not here to chase points, alerts or certs.




      * *

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      • #4
        Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

        I am sure this is the reason we found ourselves getting stomped on by huge outfits when we were taking smaller bases on the fringe of the fight. Sometimes I go for points when we are goofing off or just hanging out but when we are in a TG Platoon it is not SOP to worry about points.

        PS: Read my signature for my views on this.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

          If you look at what SOE has done with the lattice, multiple spawn options at large bases, the changes to the bases with regard to hard cover and approach, Gal and Sunderer deployment, they are obviously trying to encourage large scale battles. The 'zerk' use to at one point follow a path a wave if you will, now there will be large 'zerk' knee jerk reactions all over the continents. It's going to get harder and harder for a tactical unit to have much influence during an alert any more unless they are fielding a platoon sized unit, but even then it's still going to be hard because the enemy will 'knee jerk' react to the larger unit. Last night we saw pre-positioning of large enemy forces, air-armor-infantry were way too common at even the smaller bases, and if the initial enemy force couldn't un-root us they just sent a much larger one. Couple that with the issues I've been having with enemy appearing out of no where, and hit boxes being shifted to the point where you can hardly kill anyone any more, load screens taking longer to load and your killed while waiting. I just don't think that we have a part to play in the WDS.

          It's no longer a "I play more tactically" game, it's a "I have a larger stick than you do" game

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          • #6
            Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

            I never understand the concept of: "Oh look the enemy is worried about an Alert, let us exploit their concern over playing towards an objective so that we can win another unstated objective they have no clue or concern about."

            This being said I completely get playing for fun first and foremost. But for me being competitive is what is fun. I think there is a sizable split in the TG community, I could be fairly off base though due to my absence, about how we go about defining objectives.

            Planetside2 is a complete sandbox war and I get that their aren't any hard set objectives. However, isn't the point of an MMOFPS to bridge each little 'map' of a game like Battlefield into a larger campaign? Isn't the point of huge scale of Planetside to actually have to worry about company level battles? Sure one squad can't contribute much to the WDS but no one is saying that.

            It's like saying one person doesn't contribute much to a platoon so never join a platoon. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it can't be fun. I don't judge my play sessions during an alert on whether we win or lose it, just wether we did well and had fun.

            I am with Jb and say that their should be more attention paid to things like these. People like to compete, it's the nature of this game, why opt out?

            And war of equal armies have never been solely about tactics, logistics matter just the same and even an Army of thousands defeated one of 300 despite worse tactics.

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            • #7
              Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

              Originally posted by Ytman View Post
              It's like saying one person doesn't contribute much to a platoon so never join a platoon. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it can't be fun. I don't judge my play sessions during an alert on whether we win or lose it, just wether we did well and had fun.
              That's not the issue. The issue is that it is structured such that the relevance of the small actions with regards to the larger goal is unclear and indirect. As a squad member, I can see how my small contributions have lead to the success of my squad, which in turn leads to the success of the platoon. Working towards the WDS goal, it is practically impossible to influence the larger picture because the vast majority of it is tied up in servers we have no influence over, with people for whom we nominally share a faction but otherwise might as well be Vanu or TR for all the connection we actually have with them. My squad is my team, my platoon is my team, and hell, even the other outfits running platoons on Mattherson are my team, but "the NC across all servers as a whole" is not a group I feel any particular affiliation with.

              Moreover, from any perspective we might have the rewards are largely arbitrary, having been determined by players actions long before we signed on for the night, and can only be even competed for based on battle lines that are largely targets of opportunity. Any victory condition is so far out in terms of time that achieving this meta-game objective doesn't give any feedback on success or failure within the timespan of an individual op. In fact, it seems to me that even an exceptional performance in a single op would be a momentary bit of noise on the graph. In an event like this, the trends matter more than any actual victories.

              Moreover, it doesn't seem like the faction as a whole is really engaged in this at the strategic level, just individual players and squads. WDS is a zerg motivational tool, not a real strategic objective.

              So, when I lead platoons, I'm not inclined to pursue it save for whatever motivation it might provide the enemy to come fight us. My job is to find and then direct a good fight, not to fill up an arbitrary reward count on the skinner box so everyone can get their dopamine fix. I'd rather fight for objectives that feel more meaningful. If other platoon leaders feel differently, they're free to operate differently.

              If SOE implemented an alert where the number of WDS points accumulated at the end was the victory condition, THEN you might find me interested because 1) the whole server will be working towards it, there's meaning in comradery, and we'll be able to feel ownership over our victory or loss and 2) it'd be a different way to structure strategic priorities and I could see some really interesting strategic gameplay and faction wide coordination coming out of it and 3) I've been waiting for alerts to be structured such that more matters than just the last 30 minutes. The alert structure, IMO, is a much better structure to hang a nightly operation around.



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              • #8
                Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                I concur with Starstriker that it is simply too big of an event that any single or even small group of outfits could strategize a victory. This would have to be at the world wide faction level with participation from likely dozens/hundreds of outfits in order to strategize a victory. More over the reward is insignificant to the scale of the accomplishment.

                I would be much more interested if TG participated in the Community Clash events or Major League Gaming.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                  Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                  That's not the issue. The issue is that it is structured such that the relevance of the small actions with regards to the larger goal is unclear and indirect.
                  No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible. In any war name one exact small action which defined the outcome. Just because you can't see direct feedback on wether or not you did the right thing correctly does not mean what you did was insignificant. Just because we are fighting on the Mattherson front does not mean we contribute nothing. Just because we can only hope to only contribute a little bit to the greater war does not make our contribution insignificant or worthless. The winning faction will have, theoretically, the most amount of small components working towards the goal of total victory.

                  Any victory condition is so far out in terms of time that achieving this meta-game objective doesn't give any feedback on success or failure within the timespan of an individual op. In fact, it seems to me that even an exceptional performance in a single op would be a momentary bit of noise on the graph. In an event like this, the trends matter more than any actual victories.
                  But isn't that the point? It is a long term goal. If an op is a battle the WDS is the war. No war was ever fought with just one battle in mind. Trends defined success or defeat of armies.

                  Moreover, it doesn't seem like the faction as a whole is really engaged in this at the strategic level, just individual players and squads. WDS is a zerg motivational tool, not a real strategic objective.

                  So, when I lead platoons, I'm not inclined to pursue it save for whatever motivation it might provide the enemy to come fight us. My job is to find and then direct a good fight, not to fill up an arbitrary reward count on the skinner box so everyone can get their dopamine fix. I'd rather fight for objectives that feel more meaningful. If other platoon leaders feel differently, they're free to operate differently.
                  But why not meet the two trains of thought? Why not pick where you go in part because of the value of the region to the WDS and because of a good fight? My point isn't to question your particular motivations but to underscore that there is more to this game than just going to control points and winning a territory. WDS is a long term event and cannot be avoided. That base that has been held for five hours? Why not make sure it's held for one more hour if you are in the area? That enemy base has been held on Amerish for three hours? Let's make sure we hit that while performing small scale ops there. The point is that unlike an Alert WDS is always going on no matter what and is in general gauging your successes over this month. In a way it is an incentive to not just take a territory but to hold it for a good time.

                  If SOE implemented an alert where the number of WDS points accumulated at the end was the victory condition, THEN you might find me interested because 1) the whole server will be working towards it, there's meaning in comradery, and we'll be able to feel ownership over our victory or loss and 2) it'd be a different way to structure strategic priorities and I could see some really interesting strategic gameplay and faction wide coordination coming out of it and 3) I've been waiting for alerts to be structured such that more matters than just the last 30 minutes. The alert structure, IMO, is a much better structure to hang a nightly operation around.
                  While I don't disagree in theory I think such a set up would end much like the recent SuperBowl. A team would gain a strong lead out of the gate and soon the other factions would just be counting the days until it's over. Besides such a set up would prevent many people from contributing to it who log on between alerts or can not play a full alert.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                    Originally posted by Ytman View Post
                    No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible.
                    That is exactly my point. I am looking for the feeling of agency when I choose strategic objectives, and WDS doesn't do that.

                    This is not a "cause I believe in" or a long term objective I find compelling. It's not like a real war (which wouldn't be won or lost by a point total, but whether or not certain political objectives had been achieved), it's not an election where "every vote counts" because at the end of the day nothing about it really matters and I don't have common cause with the other participants.

                    In other words, before you can even begin the task of convincing me to "do my part", you have to convince me that I've got a meaningful stake in the outcome, and WDS hasn't done that for me yet.



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                      So far what I've seen in WDS prime time is more numerous overall forces working in larger zergs to dominate specific sections of the map. The rewards have clearly encouraged more people to play regularly and to start alts in other factions. The increased visibility of the rewards scheme provides more incentive for individuals to play focused on base capture and defense, but if there is any higher strategy at work its inscrutable to the grunt on the ground, IMO.

                      It's a promo. It gets people playing, and it gets them on the point. That's probably a net benefit if you like the game, even if no other strategy or faction hierarchy emerges.
                      In game handle: Steel Scion
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                        Either way you are on this issue, the most important thing is to have fun. If we stop having fun, what are we doing? I hope I am not the only one that uses this game as a stress relief. It might lead me to talk more during ghost /limited engagement attacks or defenses, but I'm trying to have fun.

                        In the grand scheme of things, we won't make a huge dent in the WDS points. It does give us objectives to work towards if we are not in an alert. (until the squad /platoon based objectives pop up.
                        https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...system.162113/ ) There are benefits to do these as I mentioned before and people can always drop the squad if they are not happy about their squad leader's decision.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                          I'm not trying to convince you about the merits of the WDS, starstriker, I am just trying to underscore that to other people the WDS is a valid event that people in TG can enjoy. I honestly do not understand the attempt to avoid it merely because you think it's not like a real war or like an election because in the end it is simply without huge reward(why play a game anyways? Battles aren't won by capture points, it doesn't matter if we capture a territory now because it won't stay that way later.).

                          Trust me, I'm not trying to usurp any in game leadership. I am just arguing that it doesn't hurt to take the WDS in stride and kinda play along. It could be as simple as a feature that helps guide what is valuable during a session. I am also arguing against the mentality that TG shouldn't wish to be competitive during events like these. Just do what we can, have fun doing it, and know that we contributed to a greater effort overall.

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                          • #14
                            Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                            Originally posted by Ytman View Post
                            I'm not trying to convince you about the merits of the WDS, starstriker, I am just trying to underscore that to other people the WDS is a valid event that people in TG can enjoy. I honestly do not understand the attempt to avoid it merely because you think it's not like a real war or like an election because in the end it is simply without huge reward(why play a game anyways? Battles aren't won by capture points, it doesn't matter if we capture a territory now because it won't stay that way later.).
                            It feels like you're actively misunderstanding me. I'm not disinterested in it because it isn't more like X or Y, but because there's nothing in it that brings out the elements of the game that I'm playing for. WDS does not encourage the kind of gameplay, mindset, or scenarios that interest me, and thus it holds no value for me. Don't pull out all this BS about how the game (or games in general) are purposeless anyways, because that's semantic distraction from the issue at hand. Capturing territories is meaningful not because of any extrinsic reward, but because of the intrinsic rewards of playing with the team, executing a strategy against tough odds and coming out on top, feeling like we were an indispensable part of a group effort, and just in general those incredible moments the game is capable of generating. Capturing territories is boring and irrelevant if it's just a ghost cap, which is sadly what WDS seems to encourage, and I can't see myself thinking "man, remember that time we capped a 20 point base from the Vanu? That was great."

                            Trust me, I'm not trying to usurp any in game leadership. I am just arguing that it doesn't hurt to take the WDS in stride and kinda play along. It could be as simple as a feature that helps guide what is valuable during a session. I am also arguing against the mentality that TG shouldn't wish to be competitive during events like these. Just do what we can, have fun doing it, and know that we contributed to a greater effort overall.
                            Personally, I will not be altering any of my objectives or strategies for the sake of getting more WDS points because I don't think it's going to lead to an improvement in the quality of our ops. If you want to see that happen, you'll need to be the one platoon/squad leading. I'm not going to be a Grinch and actively avoid bases with high point values, so if we end up getting a fair amount of points as a result of regular play, bonus. But I won't be playing along with something that I think is, at best completely irrelevant and at worst a distraction that encourages dubious play. I've happily sent squads to set up on the base ahead of us instead of sitting around to get cap XP, and I'll probably do the same for WDS points.

                            This isn't the kind of structure that's good for genuine feelings of competition, for all the reasons I've said. I'm a pretty competitive person, I'd be all for a good structure for adversarial ops, but WDS emphatically isn't it.


                            @ Steeler

                            I've noticed this too, and on that basis I'm actually feeling positive about WDS's impact on the health of the game as a whole. As a low-cost implementaiton of something that keeps the community interested, growing, and engaged, it seems like they've hit on something, even if from a personal perspective it doesn't grab me. More targets to shoot at is always a good thing, and the longer the game can maintain a healthy community the more likely it'll evolve to the point where the really cool stuff starts getting implemented.



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                            • #15
                              Re: World Domination Series (WDS)

                              On topic about positive TG participation/contribution to the WDS

                              Overall the NC is winning the WDS [YAY!] with the VS ever so slightly behind us [BOO!] (895k NC vrs 875k VS). Across all the servers, save for two, the NC is winning on some solid margins. SADLY, on Mattherson the NC is losing most handedly (108k NC vrs 142k VS). This is actually the largest gap on any server and is the critical point at which the Vanu have a hope at winning.

                              I hope some can see this as being an explicit argument that the critical battle for the WDS will actually happen on our server, because it is happening right now on our server. Non-participation would most likely result in defeat and squander the solid attempts of our fellow NCers on other servers. Looking at the mechanics of the WDS I think it would be prudent for any willing TG operation-planner to give appropriate strategic value to bases which have been held the longest and reward us the most. Furthermore, for the more aggressive persons/squads/platoons, top priority should be given to striking deep into VS territory (not TR territory).

                              There are undoubtedly more approaches and considerations to take but these are the ones most apparent to me.


                              =====
                              Off topic response to prior conversation.

                              Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                              It feels like you're actively misunderstanding me. I'm not disinterested in it because it isn't more like X or Y, but because there's nothing in it that brings out the elements of the game that I'm playing for.
                              Let me use this as a way to readjust the focus of where this discussion is going: I was not trying to question other people's motivations for playing this game. My first post was not even directed at anyone in particular and was an argument against the sentiment that just because TG is not here to 'chase alerts, certs, or points,' doesn't mean we can't chase alerts, points, certs, or the WDS. My point, ultimately, is that TG can benefit from actively working towards the WDS and that some members would probably enjoy this.

                              Let me explain a little better:

                              TG is a community that fosters cooperative teamwork in a good sportsmanship manner. TG does not value certifications, points, rank, or Alerts over the core experience of playing within a fun, mature, cooperative, and fair community. This does not mean that TG looks down upon actions which reward in game achievement or the pursuit of in-game objectives. As such the TG pursuit of objectives in game, WDS/Alert/Cert centric, should not be denigrated.

                              =====

                              We are quickly approaching, or yet already in, the midst of trying to change the other's opinion on the 'value' of an in-game objective. You do not see the WDS as an objective to work for while I obviously think that the WDS is a valid long term goal much in the sense of an extended game campaign with an absolute win condition and end state. While I am not one to shy from a contentious debate I do not wish to do this at the expense of JerJB's important original focus which has been cast aside because of other member's dislike for the WDS.

                              The original post was asking not about whether anyone likes the WDS or whether it is 'TG' to want to pursue the WDS objectives but rather a query on how other PLs/SLs would approach TG's positive involvement. Very quickly other people's dislike of the WDS impeded a positive discussion between people who do like the WDS.

                              (As a final aside I'd like to clarify that I was not trying to question 'why bother playing a game at all' but was trying to point out that you were upselling one developer created in-game objective while at the same time deriding another as wholly trivial. Both a simple territory capture and a total WDS victory are valid pursuits. Ultimately, success in one, over time, follows the other.)

                              =====

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