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Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

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  • Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

    Early on I seem to recall people didn't like the default Lightning gun much so everyone took the High Explosive cannon; well, it's time to switch back because this thing rocks! I must be late to the party as I've certainly seen high BR enemies using it.

    Advantages over HE:

    -6 rapid-fire rounds per mag.
    -Doesn't suffer from the extreme gravity on the HE, so long range shots are easy.
    -Slightly faster shots than HE.
    -Appears to single shot most infantry on a direct hit (heavy shields and high flak armor might survive), so you can snipe multiple people that poke their heads up without reloading.
    -Can spread your damage in bursts or just spam everything for large groups of infantry.
    -Can take out Harassers and other Lightnings pretty well (watch out for Armor Piercing cannons).
    -Deals adequate damage to MBTs and Sunderers for a lot of assists / assisted kills. Of course, you can outright kill the ones that don't pay attention.
    -Very cheap! Default gun + plenty of ammo. I have 4 levels of ammo and feel I should be running out long before I actually do, and by then I don't mind.


    Disadvantages:

    -Slightly slower reload.
    -Slight vertical recoil on each shot but with a little practice it's easily manageable. Burst fire conserves ammo until you have this down.


    I've had a lot of fun with this in just a few days. On one occasion I went after 2 different Sunderers where enemies were spawning and got 50 something kills, plus the assists on the Sunderers, in a matter of minutes. I've also been getting up close and personal with enemy infantry to nullify their cover and lend close support to NC infantry, while the enemies are distracted with me they close ground unopposed.

    Although using a weak Lightning means you'll be doing a lot of hit and run there are benefits, like when enemies retreat the Lightning's speed allows you to hunt them down. It's also easier to flank and hit targets in the side or rear. The smaller profile and speed means you can dodge more shots as well.



    |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

  • #2
    Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

    Gotta agree with what you have said. My HE Lightning is gathering dust lately. Sure the HE has a much bigger blast radius, but with everyone wearing Flak when fighting outdoors nowadays multiple shots is greater than one big one. Also HE can't even scratch armor or vehicles.

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    • #3
      Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

      I usually employ my lightning as a tank killer with the Python AP, but I've heard very good things about the Viper for AI purposes. I could definitely see that being used as a close infantry support vehicle in suitable terrain.



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      • #4
        Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

        The Viper is now a great close quarters AI weapon.

        Little bit of math yielded this assuming linear drop off

        0.5m 1m 1.5m 2m 2.5m 3m 3.5m 4m
        550dmg 471dmg 393dmg 314dmg 236dmg 157dmg 79dmg 1
        This is quite impressive and I've compared it with the HE cannon and the comparative T2K is much lower with the C75 up until 3 meters of splash. The rub is that splash damage is obviously in a volume and so the HE cannon fares better against larger volumes.

        I think the Lightning should be reconsidered as a close range AI vehicle platform tied directly to an infantry squad in light of the C75. The HE is more specialized (though my math seems to indicate that the damage potential between the Lightning HE and the Titan HE is near identical).

        This should not make any would be Armored Squads focus on C75s. The C75 is through and through an AI weapon the HE cannons are preferred because they are both AI and suitably AV.

        Jengles you mention that it is easier to snipe infantry with than the HE cannon. Does this mean they've completely retooled the trajectory?

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        • #5
          Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

          Attaching Viper Lightnings to infantry is a neat thought, and could provide some great punch on open or rolling terrain. In the past I've experimented with a Kobalt Harasser in an infantry squad as a long range suppressing element once or twice, and I could see this filling a closer range brute force role, in addition to being more flexible in maneuver (can fire and move without having to switch seats or use a driver).



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          • #6
            Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

            Originally posted by Ytman View Post
            The Viper is now a great close quarters AI weapon.

            This should not make any would be Armored Squads focus on C75s. The C75 is through and through an AI weapon the HE cannons are preferred because they are both AI and suitably AV.

            Jengles you mention that it is easier to snipe infantry with than the HE cannon. Does this mean they've completely retooled the trajectory?
            I feel like you got your C75 and your HE backwards in this bit. HE is through and through infantry, the C75 is capable at attacking both fairly well. Jengles also mentioned it was easier to snipe infantry with the C75 not the HE.

            Unless it is possible that you intended "HEAT" (high explosive anti tank) instead of "HE" (high explosive).

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            • #7
              Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

              The last change to the 100mm HE cannon was a buff to its anti-vehicle damage. That being said, the raw direct damage output of the C75 is better.

              Here's how it breaks down:

              100mm HE: 267 dps (max 296)
              75mm HEAT: 400 dps (max 432)

              Supposedly the 75mm and the 100mm direct damage are in different resist categories, with the 75mm having a larger damage reduction against all armor targets, especially in the case of Lightnings, Harassers, and Sunderers, the end result being similar effective dps with the 100mm being more effective against Lightnings, Harassers and Sunderers and the 75 better against MBTs

              BUT like a good scientist I went into the test server to confirm my findings. Turns out the resist tables are wrong or out of date. Both weapons took the exact same amount of damage to kill all ground targets.

              So it remains that the 75 has, on paper, exactly 50% more DPS than the 100 HE.

              As to the effective dps of the C75 in combat, it does drop off a lot quicker than the 100 HE due to the vertical and horizontal recoil of the C75, the obscuring muzzle blast, and gravity mysteriously having a stronger effect on the C75's projectiles. Even at close ranges I find that enemies have a hard time hitting me with more than a couple of shots out of a slavo. At moderate to long-range the 100 HE wins handily. The ability to pop out, hit with more than double the alpha, then hide again should not be discounted either. As any WoT player can tell you, alpha often trumps DPS. :P

              50% is a lot at point-blank range, but I think in combat they're both similar in effectiveness - i.e. pretty bad against vehicles. Overall I think the 100 HE is a little more effective against vehicles, but if you find yourself fighting vehicles with either of these weapons you've done something wrong in my book.
              Teamwork and Tactics are OP


              Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                Originally posted by Strait Raider View Post
                So it remains that the 75 has, on paper, exactly 50% more DPS than the 100 HE.

                As to the effective dps of the C75 in combat, it does drop off a lot quicker than the 100 HE due to the vertical and horizontal recoil of the C75, the obscuring muzzle blast, and gravity mysteriously having a stronger effect on the C75's projectiles. Even at close ranges I find that enemies have a hard time hitting me with more than a couple of shots out of a slavo. At moderate to long-range the 100 HE wins handily. The ability to pop out, hit with more than double the alpha, then hide again should not be discounted either. As any WoT player can tell you, alpha often trumps DPS. :P

                50% is a lot at point-blank range, but I think in combat they're both similar in effectiveness - i.e. pretty bad against vehicles. Overall I think the 100 HE is a little more effective against vehicles, but if you find yourself fighting vehicles with either of these weapons you've done something wrong in my book.
                Thanks for your science.

                It appears the resistance table is out of date right now on the wikia but you summed my point of Alpha >> Damage over time. The HE is an infantry specific cannon but so is the C75. In my mind I'd use a C75 as a close range infantry fighting vehicle and the HE as a siege weapon. The C75's gravity is odd when compared to it's faster muzzle velocity but this is Auraxis so the laws of physics don't matter (it is known different projectiles have different gravities).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                  Today at crossroads watchtower I went 105 kills in a row over an hour in this viper tank. It is seriously over powered and diminishes the usefulness of the heat/HE canon.

                  “Big Brother is Watching You.”
                  ― George Orwell, "1984"

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                  • #10
                    Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                    Originally posted by Zepkron View Post
                    I feel like you got your C75 and your HE backwards in this bit. HE is through and through infantry, the C75 is capable at attacking both fairly well. Jengles also mentioned it was easier to snipe infantry with the C75 not the HE.

                    Unless it is possible that you intended "HEAT" (high explosive anti tank) instead of "HE" (high explosive).
                    Exactly. The gravity drop on the HE is crazy, much like the anti-vehicle base turrets that eventually got changed to match Vanguard HEAT rounds, IIRC. C75 easily wins in the range department, and the kick is not difficult to learn. I don't see any horizontal recoil.

                    Originally posted by Ytman View Post
                    The Viper is now a great close quarters AI weapon.

                    Little bit of math yielded this assuming linear drop off

                    0.5m 1m 1.5m 2m 2.5m 3m 3.5m 4m
                    550dmg 471dmg 393dmg 314dmg 236dmg 157dmg 79dmg 1
                    This is quite impressive and I've compared it with the HE cannon and the comparative T2K is much lower with the C75 up until 3 meters of splash. The rub is that splash damage is obviously in a volume and so the HE cannon fares better against larger volumes.

                    I think the Lightning should be reconsidered as a close range AI vehicle platform tied directly to an infantry squad in light of the C75. The HE is more specialized (though my math seems to indicate that the damage potential between the Lightning HE and the Titan HE is near identical).

                    This should not make any would be Armored Squads focus on C75s. The C75 is through and through an AI weapon the HE cannons are preferred because they are both AI and suitably AV.

                    Jengles you mention that it is easier to snipe infantry with than the HE cannon. Does this mean they've completely retooled the trajectory?
                    I feel this analysis overlooks the potential of 6 shots instead of 1 per reload. Imagine a grouping of enemies and a well-aimed HE round such that the radius covers as many as possible. Everything outside the radius is completely unaffected, everything inside is hit for 1000 damage.

                    Now consider where you would place 6 Viper rounds. Are there 2 main groupings of infantry? Shoot 3 shots at each. 3 groupings? 2 shots at each. Heck, as I said, a lot of enemies die in one shot so if you use your rounds conservatively you can hit more than that. And if you ever do get that single tight grouping, spam away.

                    Now what if enemies are spread out, anywhere from just beyond the HE radius to in completely different locations? HE takes forever as it reloads for each target, while the Viper cleanly snipes each target.

                    Oh, and missed shots matter less.

                    Quite simply, there are many occasions (a few types, where each happens regularly) where the Viper is better. There is only one occasion I can think of where the HE is better: the enemies are more than 3m behind cover and you can't get a better angle (like inside a building). For some cover, this is where the Lightnings ability to move position quickly helps, possibly rushing the enemy and engaging at close range as I pointed out in the OP.

                    It's at that point I would say HE is a niche option and the Viper is the more reliable overall.



                    |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                      Wouldn't HE be a better option for long range anti-infantry, or for clearing buildings?



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                        Originally posted by MrJengles View Post
                        It's at that point I would say HE is a niche option and the Viper is the more reliable overall.
                        Interesting, I'd say the exact opposite.

                        The Viper is only effective at close range and only achieves its full potential at very close range.

                        The L100 HE maintains the same effectiveness out to long range. It can also one-shot infantry (directly OR with splash), prosecute full-power attacks in minimal engagement windows, deal better with aircraft, and damage and suppress targets the C75 can't even reach with its small splash radius.
                        Teamwork and Tactics are OP


                        Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                          It has been said repeatedly that HE is better at range but I have yet to hear any reasoning. Also, any counter to the fact that HE has a very strong curve that is difficult to learn, resulting in missed shots, and effectively limits the maximum range - you have to find the sweet spot angle to make the most of the arc. While the C75 fires much more straight, meaning no real limit on maximum range, and for long range shots only needs aiming a little higher than other tank cannons.

                          Originally posted by Strait Raider View Post
                          The L100 HE maintains the same effectiveness out to long range. It can also one-shot infantry (directly OR with splash), prosecute full-power attacks in minimal engagement windows, deal better with aircraft, and damage and suppress targets the C75 can't even reach with its small splash radius.
                          Some infantry survive the HE's splash (not sure about flak armor / heavy shields for direct hits). Some infantry survive the C75's splash and direct hit. However, for both the C75 can fire again a fraction of a second later vs. HE's few seconds reloading. You can also optimize your shots as I pointed out in my last post so that spread out targets die more readily.

                          The arc on the HE makes hitting aircraft very difficult and, IIRC, puts fighters on fire but doesn't one shot them. I've hit aircraft with the C75, in fact, you can spam 6 shots and have quite a good chance of hitting. In both cases it's more of a scare tactic, though the HE has a slightly higher chance of resulting in a kill. Either way, when I pull AI I try not to engage aircraft unless they shoot at me and scaring them away is a win. I leave the tanks with AP rounds to one-shot fighters and deal high damage to libs/gals.

                          Most targets pop their heads out at some point. If they're very entrenched I agree, the HE is better, but that's the one time HE has a clear advantage.

                          As to damage, in your earlier numbers when you said "75mm HEAT: 400 dps (max 432)" did you mean C75 Viper?

                          Originally posted by Strait Raider View Post
                          As to the effective dps of the C75 in combat, it does drop off a lot quicker than the 100 HE due to the vertical and horizontal recoil of the C75, the obscuring muzzle blast, and gravity mysteriously having a stronger effect on the C75's projectiles. Even at close ranges I find that enemies have a hard time hitting me with more than a couple of shots out of a slavo. At moderate to long-range the 100 HE wins handily. The ability to pop out, hit with more than double the alpha, then hide again should not be discounted either. As any WoT player can tell you, alpha often trumps DPS. :P

                          50% is a lot at point-blank range, but I think in combat they're both similar in effectiveness - i.e. pretty bad against vehicles. Overall I think the 100 HE is a little more effective against vehicles, but if you find yourself fighting vehicles with either of these weapons you've done something wrong in my book.
                          Consider that it's a starting weapon and conventional wisdom has been to take HE, so most of the people using the Viper are low BR and can't aim (with the odd very high BR exception).

                          Aiming through the muzzle blast effectively just means watching the red IFF tag and keeping your lead in relation to it. The vertical recoil can be overcome as with any gun and I see no horizontal recoil.

                          I'm not sure how the Viper could ever seem to have more gravity than HE. Most weapons only need the first 2, maybe 3, ticks on the reticule when reaching out to maximum range, whereas HE is probably the only gun that ends up aiming half way down the reticule or more - it's so bad I feel like I'm aiming at a completely different target.


                          As for the rest my take away is that the Viper is 50% more effective against armor, but you have to stay out of cover for a second longer. Seeing as I don't intend to take on tanks one-on-one, this is not a big concern for me. Most of the time I'm fighting MBTs it seems to be one of three cases: providing additional DPS to help a friendly, flanking behind the tank when he's already injured, or shooting while I retreat because he's trying to take me out. In the first two I want DPS, in the third it doesn't matter much but I do like that I can miss more shots while going over bumpy terrain.

                          Once again, I prefer the Viper's extra DPS against any Sunderer, particularly deployed ones. Finally, missed shots on fast moving Harassers and Lightnings matter less, plus it's easier to hit them at range where the HE has to account for extreme gravity and lead at the same time.

                          I just don't see why an AI Lightning would be taking pot shots at vehicles. Either you kill it fast and get out of there, or don't bother.



                          |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                            I've been testing around, and the 75mm is not the weapon it was a short while ago. The doubled-gravity effect is gone, it now shoots like any other 200 m/s weapon. The horrendous horizontal recoil has been removed and the vertical recoil has been reduced significantly. It has been given the heavy ordnance resistance bracket, majorly boosting its damage against vehicles (where previously it was similar to the 100mm HE, even at close range), and its splash damage was boosted to 600 damage max at 1m radius. (YT's data is out of date)

                            Most, perhaps all of these changes happened in mid-December 2013 (I was away on vacation!), I hope you'll forgive me taking a while to catch up!

                            It's a manageable weapon now, though I still don't like the way it handles.

                            Sidenote: Yes, I call it the 75mm HEAT. It IS a HEAT weapon, and 75 almost certainly refers to its caliber of 75mm, as the pattern of vehicle weapon names would indicate. I think that "75mm HEAT" gives a much better indication of the weapon's power and role than "C75 Viper".

                            On topic:

                            I was thinking about this last night, so I did some integral calculus to try to figure out the kill potential of various weapon splashes.

                            Sample:[spoiler]

                            100mm HE does a max of 1000 damage out to 1.5m, falling linearly to 1 damage at 8m

                            What is the area-of-effect damage potential of this weapon?

                            1000 dam / (8m - 1.5m) = 154 dam/m

                            154 dam/m * 8m = 1231 dam

                            Damage at any radius between 1.5 and 8m = 1231 - 154r

                            Area at any radius = circumference * change in radius = 2πr dr

                            damage * area = (1231 - 154r) 2πr dr

                            ∫(1231 - 154r) 2πr dr =

                            1231πr^2 - 103πr^3

                            1231πr^2 - 103πr^3| evaluated between 1.5 and 8.0 is 82624 - 7614 = 75010 dam*m^2

                            Damage potential of center section = 2πr^2 * dam = 2π(1.5)^2 * 1000 = 14137 dam*m^2

                            Total = 75010+14137 = 89147 dam*m^2

                            [/spoiler]

                            The upshot is we have a sort of AoE-dps figure we can use

                            Obviously this is an idea 2-D scenario. If the enemy is in a line against a wall or something it's closer to a 2D problem, where the lower AoE weapons don't fare as bad. Likewise, if you're firing into a room or rough terrain / jumping enemies, it may be closer to a 3D problem, where the larger AoE weapons do even better.

                            Per shot AD / ADPM

                            81815 / 1309k 100mm HE
                            11537 / 692k 75mm HEAT

                            Basically, the 100mm HE has over 7 times the area damage per shot, and double the area damage over time of the 75mm HEAT weapon.

                            This was kind of fun, so I'm going to do it for a bunch of vehicles.
                            Last edited by Strait Raider; 02-27-2014, 07:09 PM.
                            Teamwork and Tactics are OP


                            Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

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                            • #15
                              Re: Lightning C75 Viper - Awesome Anti-Infantry

                              ^^^^GEEK^^^^:icon_smil
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