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  • Aid for new SL's?

    Greetings TG,

    Yesterday a member came to me and asked how he could be a better lead. Caught slightly off guard I gave him some vague tips such as "Try to keep people together" "Watch how other leads do things and try to pull things you like into your own play" " when you are in bases soloing explore and try to think what would I do if i were leading here". My help was met with an "oh okay" and in hind sight I really feel I dropped the ball and could have gone in depth into some things and given this member a step by step guide as to what to work on first and then what to move on to form there.

    With this in mind, I'm asking what tools does TG provide for new squad leads or people who are interested in trying it out? In my opinion the TG squad puts a lot of emphasis on its leads because unlike other groups that place a green tower of light near a flag and say "Okay go here" We put a lot more thought into it; tactfully getting our guys to do what ever needs to be done to actually make it there or ensure our allies do. So to give our newer leads confidence to try it out and run great squads of their own do we have a training night? Should we? Or how about a group of dudes that can be referred to, to give advice and take time to help.

    Lastly a side note: Since I still keep my ties with the NCC I know that they are organizing a outfit training team. What this actually entails I'm not exactly sure, though one would assume squad leading and platoon leading is part of it.
    SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

  • #2
    Re: Aid for new SL's?

    TG offers an opt-in/volunteer-taught programme called Tactical Gamer University. On the odd occasion, specifically when community interest is high, the higher ups and willing members of our outfit will volunteer to organize an 'workshop' or 'class' for any variety of topics, of which leadership is.

    Now I've been trying to write a few things here and there to help new players understand the game, and to help collect my thoughts on the tactical/strategic elements of the game I observe and assume exist. I'd love to try and work with other TG players to create actual tutorials/guides offered on these forums and perhaps an unofficial PS2 website much like what the Vindicators have:

    https://sites.google.com/site/planetsidetactics/

    .


    Personally, you were put in a lose-lose situation. Leadership in these kinds of games requires experience and boldness, there is no one correct way to lead, no perfect formula for Squad Leading. The person who wishes to learn to lead should be told to observe what other leaders do, how they do it, and try to find out why. Then they should try it themselves for a few minutes or how ever long they are comfortable and try to seek feedback from other more 'experienced' SLs (not to assume that 'experience' can be measured in time spent as SL).

    If you've been rolling with us frequently you'll notice that TG is kind of all over the place with our individual methods. No one SL or PL is at all similar in how they approach a mission/objective and many of us vehemently disagree with each other. This isn't bad but a feature that allows us to all be individual leaders and find out how to lead in our own way.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Aid for new SL's?

      I know Garthra is setting up some classes through TG University. He'd be an excellent person to talk to about this.

      This is an absolutely critical issue, and I'm not sure if there's any easy answer. We've got a huge shortage of leaders, and not being able to train people up so that they're confident enough to lead is a big piece of that puzzle.

      I know in the past there have been classes specifically dealing with squad leadership, and hopefully it's something we'll see again. Something that's also been tried in the past (and which sounds like a great idea) is to have experienced SLs coach newer ones via Teamspeak at their request, though I don't recall ever having done that at a large scale. Part of the problem there is that our experienced SLs are often the first to step up and take a lead position (strange that there'd be such a correlation, right?) and aren't always available to coach someone else.

      One thing that can be done is to stack the squads of a green SL with TG members, which is the closest thing we've got to "easy mode" for SLs. Once you have to start wrangling uncooperative blueberries it gets more complicated.

      TL;DR: Yes, we should absolutely be thinking about ways to address this. Lack of leadership candidates is a big problem for us.



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Aid for new SL's?

        One of the main roles of NCOs is to mentor players. Anyone looking for guidance please contact any NCOs in game, in teamspeak or on the forums; and, if asked, direct any interested players to us.

        Personally, I'm available most days for any impromptu mentoring, discussion etc. and can jump on TS and in their squads to help out.


        As for more official training, as StarStriker said, PS2 courses/lessons for Tactical Gamer University are a work in progress. Mentoring sessions, where the trainee leads a squad and jumps on teamspeak with an NCO+ for advice and questions, has also been trialed successfully but unfortunately didn't become a scheduled thing.


        Additional advice that's easy to give:
        • Observe other leaders
        • Run outfit-only squads and/or lead during afternoons instead of prime time (less pressure)
        • Read the forums, particularly the Strategy and Tactics and After Action Reports sections


        Thanks for asking Ryker!



        |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Aid for new SL's?

          I suspect that the biggest hurdle we in encouraging new people to squad lead is not access to training and tactics, or the availability of role models. I also do not believe that it's genuinely helpful to tell a prospective squad member to 'watch how others lead squads'. I would imagine that anyone who was interested in leading was already paying rapt attention to whoever their squad leading role models happen to be: I know I certainly was paying attention. The issue we have is with getting people to actually stand up and do it. It's a high pressure gig, especially given TG's high standards of discipline and coordination. It's a vicious cycle: nobody wants to be the guy that screws up a redeployment or a sunderer push, but you also won't ever learn unless you fall down a few times.

          I feel like what we need to do is drive home to potential squad leaders that it's okay to make mistakes. I know that personally, that's what kept me from leading for so long, and what keeps me from leading as much as I probably ought to. We should try to have one night a week where we encourage new people to try leading, not in a mentorship or training type environment, but in an atmosphere of just having people get their metaphorical feet wet. We should try to gather a small infantry platoon and have squad leaders switch out every hour/half hour, maybe.

          I think if we could get a semi-regular "come-lead-a-squad-even-if-you-suck" platoon, we'd get more people willing and ready to stand up and really try their hand. I know that would have helped me give it a shot sooner than I did.


          A pilot who doesn't have any fear probably isn't flying his plane to its maximum. -Jon McBride, astronaut

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Aid for new SL's?

            Absolutely. Fear of screwing up or making a fool of yourself publicly is probably the main thing stopping people from even making the attempt, and we've got to address that.

            For people who are already leading and are looking for a leg up, though, that hurdle has already been leapt. There's really two issues here: getting people to try in the first place (arguably our biggest problem) and then, once they've put themselves on the spot, training and enabling them to lead effectively.

            Nitpicking aside, I think Daelon hit the issue on the head.



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Aid for new SL's?

              Originally posted by Daelon Suzuka View Post
              I suspect that the biggest hurdle we in encouraging new people to squad lead is not access to training and tactics, or the availability of role models. I also do not believe that it's genuinely helpful to tell a prospective squad member to 'watch how others lead squads'. I would imagine that anyone who was interested in leading was already paying rapt attention to whoever their squad leading role models happen to be: I know I certainly was paying attention. The issue we have is with getting people to actually stand up and do it. It's a high pressure gig, especially given TG's high standards of discipline and coordination. It's a vicious cycle: nobody wants to be the guy that screws up a redeployment or a sunderer push, but you also won't ever learn unless you fall down a few times.

              I feel like what we need to do is drive home to potential squad leaders that it's okay to make mistakes. I know that personally, that's what kept me from leading for so long, and what keeps me from leading as much as I probably ought to. We should try to have one night a week where we encourage new people to try leading, not in a mentorship or training type environment, but in an atmosphere of just having people get their metaphorical feet wet. We should try to gather a small infantry platoon and have squad leaders switch out every hour/half hour, maybe.

              I think if we could get a semi-regular "come-lead-a-squad-even-if-you-suck" platoon, we'd get more people willing and ready to stand up and really try their hand. I know that would have helped me give it a shot sooner than I did.
              I'm sure the more serious, or TG-minded, folks do watch others without needing the prompting. However, we pick up so many various people there are inevitably some that try to jump in and lead before they've really cottoned on to the way TG play. In any case, it does no harm to offer the advice as standard, as long as those looking for training are also pointed the right way.


              The environment you describe is precisely the one we trialed in mentoring - all players in the squad were made aware of the newer SL and if they wanted to stick around they had to be okay with lower expectations. Given the type of people at TG everyone stuck with it and were very considerate, even when we moved slowly etc. An AAR is available here.



              |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Aid for new SL's?

                Several disjointed thoughts:

                1.) IDEAS AND MATERIAL for LEADERSHIP:
                I have made several posts on squad leading and trying to impart the basics. The one that most fits is likely my principles of squad and platoon leadership. As mentioned above, people have different methods, I am only offering mine.

                2.) TGU Squad Leadership Course:
                As several people mentioned above, yes I am working on an Squad Leadership course for TGU. However, I have to finish these basic infantry course and videos first. This means the time frame on when the SL course will be taught is not soon, maybe one month from now, hopefully not too much more than that. However, it is pretty much done, so as soon as I finish with this basic infantry project, it will very soon thereafter. I really cannot wait to teach it. :)

                3.) Where ELSE to Learn:
                There are a lot of good posts around in strategy and Tactics, if the person is willing to come to the forums and read. Or they are simply listen and learn in game.

                4.) NCOs will help:
                Jengles is right, the NCOs have a duty to help mentor people if they want to be mentored. You can direct anyone asking to an NCO.
                The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Aid for new SL's?

                  Originally posted by MrJengles View Post
                  I'm sure the more serious, or TG-minded, folks do watch others without needing the prompting. However, we pick up so many various people there are inevitably some that try to jump in and lead before they've really cottoned on to the way TG play. In any case, it does no harm to offer the advice as standard, as long as those looking for training are also pointed the right way.
                  And I thought only the southern people used the word 'cottoned', nice to see it used in England too. :)

                  Another aspect to leadership is your style of play. I've been playing a lot on the Waterson server which the NC wins a ton of alerts. Although the leadership isn't really what I'd consider to be 'up to par' they make up for it in aggressive nature. They are much more aggressive than the NC is on the Mattherson server. They are also more 'points' oriented meaning of course that the Engy's are laying down ammo whenever they stop running, the Medics are healing, etc. So you have to fit your leadership style into the style of play you enjoy..........and understand that some players just don't play the same way you do. It's neither good or bad, it just is what it is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Aid for new SL's?

                    Originally posted by Rageq3a View Post
                    And I thought only the southern people used the word 'cottoned', nice to see it used in England too. :)
                    Meaning

                    To get to know or understand something.

                    Origin

                    The phrase 'cotton on to', with the above meaning, appears to be limited in usage to the UK and other countries that were previously part of the British Empire, notably Australia and New Zealand. In the USA, especially in the southern states, 'cotton to' is used, with the slightly modified meaning of 'take a liking to'.

                    As early as 1648, in a pamphlet titled Mercurius Elencticus, mocking the English parliament, the royalist soldier and poet Sir George Wharton used 'cotton', or as it was spelled then 'cotten', as a verb meaning 'to make friendly advances'. 'Cotten up to' and 'cotten to' were both used to mean 'become friendly with'. Whether this was as a reference to the rather annoying predisposition of moist raw cotton to stick to things or whether it alluded to moving of cotton garments closer together during a romantic advance isn't clear.
                    [...]
                    'Cottoning on' as we now use it derives from the meaning of 'attaching oneself to something', specifically an attachment to an idea that we haven't encountered before.
                    [...]
                    It seems that 'cotton to', 'cotton on to' all derive from the same root source, that is, the verb 'to cotton'. In the UK and its antipodes it has settled down as 'cotton on to', with the meaning 'form an understanding of' and in the USA it is 'cotton to', with the 'take a liking to' meaning.
                    Source: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/cotton-on.html

                    Turns out I was thinking of the UK meaning, but I didn't know any of the rest.

                    I confess, being part American, and perhaps partially due to the internet and TV shows, I very occasionally use American phrases or spellings without realising it. I suppose that works both ways, English phrases are seeing more - largely deliberate - use in America too.

                    Also, when I am aware of the difference and on American forums, I've sometimes wondered whether I should stick to my native spelling or it's more polite and seemly to switch. So, I try to be consistent but forgive me if you see it alternate :row__586:



                    |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Aid for new SL's?

                      Got to admit, im still having trouble with members doing silly things like fly Vanguards high over the battlefield on the backs of galaxies. Ryker what do you do when this occurs? ;)

                      Anyway I know Mondays and Tuesday nights used to be the new SL training/pickup nights. KInda fell wayside since Randy rarely logs anymore and no other NCO/Officers are running it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Aid for new SL's?

                        Originally posted by VLAD View Post
                        Got to admit, im still having trouble with members doing silly things like fly Vanguards high over the battlefield on the backs of galaxies. Ryker what do you do when this occurs? ;)

                        Anyway I know Mondays and Tuesday nights used to be the new SL training/pickup nights. KInda fell wayside since Randy rarely logs anymore and no other NCO/Officers are running it.
                        Bahaha if I'm leading a serious squad this this never occurs. Basically by the tight grouping and constant herding I do no body has time to even think about such a thing.




                        Also guys, I as a member of about a month had no idea about any of this stuff, So can we have a sticky thread for all the resources we give to squad leads? so new people can find it easily
                        SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Aid for new SL's?

                          Originally posted by Ryker View Post
                          Bahaha if I'm leading a serious squad this this never occurs. Basically by the tight grouping and constant herding I do no body has time to even think about such a thing.
                          Squad leading: what cat herding would be like if the cats had guns



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