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  • [INFO] Please encourage all members to use the forums.

    I had three separate occasions this weekend where members were squad leading and didn't know that it is against our SOP to switch squad leader to a different member to deploy a squad beacon in an advanced position.

    We all need to encourage new and long time members to visit the forums and read up on what TG is all about. Many people in game think they get it but they really don't! So please help me encourage them to get here and see what they are missing.

    Thanks Todd
    sigpic


  • #2
    Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

    Yessir, I've seen a gap in TG members of those who engage in the forums/TS and those who are entirely in game; you can tell the difference in how they play.
    Last edited by penandpencilman; 03-17-2014, 10:25 AM.

    “Big Brother is Watching You.”
    ― George Orwell, "1984"

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    • #3
      Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

      Agreed.

      Let's start trying to have conversations, in VoIP and text chat in game, concerning some of the good reading found on the forums. Word of mouth is the only tool we realistically have that could drive our members to the forum.

      sigpic


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      • #4
        Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

        I thought they removed that exploit. :/

        Hopefully SOE will actually remove it eventually.

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        • #5
          Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

          Originally posted by Ytman View Post
          I thought they removed that exploit. :/

          Hopefully SOE will actually remove it eventually.
          No, not at all. It is used rampantly across many outfits.

          I play occasionally with a competitive outfit on the TR (SVO) and they make ample use of this. They usually ask "who can put down beacon" immediately after the beacon goes down and new one is up in seconds.

          “Big Brother is Watching You.”
          ― George Orwell, "1984"

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          • #6
            Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

            Tonight our SL d/c'd when we were assaulting a base and I ended up as SL. I tried to set up a beacon, but the option wasn't available to me. Apparently I would fail at exploiting. :(
            87% Combat Engineer

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            • #7
              Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

              You need to hit an inventory station or respawn before it's available. It's part of the way this behaviour is discouraged by the designers, but it's a little inconvenient for someone who just got SL handed to them.



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              • #8
                Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                Can some body tell me how this is considered "exploiting" .. it is detrimental to a squads survivability to not be doing this. Honestly this is the one thing I can not stand about TG, i mean i cringe when we dont take the oportunities to do this and it puts us at a colossal disadvantage against literally every other semi organised squad on auraxis.

                Where are these texts that say the devs disapprove of this? Why have they not made an effort to do a simple change if they dont? Who ever is saying they have to resupply when they get lead from their squad lead is completely wrong; proof being me doing this exact thing in a 2 man stalker cloak squads exploring the basses of amerish not less then 3 days ago... only if a PL gives you sl will you have to resupply and some times for what ever reason if your alpha sl d/cs.

                I understand that tossing around the SL powers is dumb but the thing is when some one gives you SL to place a beacon they are not no longer the SL , They are just giving you the beacon. Its like saying back in the day when they had a radio man with a big back pack radio thing, that because your radio man got shot its against the rooolzz to use the radio... NOOO SOME ONE STRIPS THE RADIO OFF and calls in some damn support, it doesnt make him an official radio man, it is just a tool that can be passed around to get the job done.

                I am truly sorry that in planetside the SL carries the radio.. I know its not convineint, but give that radio to a squad member and call in some support so your dont all die. ..
                SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

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                • #9
                  Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                  Originally posted by Ryker View Post
                  Can some body tell me how this is considered "exploiting" .. it is detrimental to a squads survivability to not be doing this. Honestly this is the one thing I can not stand about TG,
                  Read this (Primer). If we are supposed to use this tactic the devs wouldn't have made it mandatory you respwan or resupply to get a spawn beacon. We could just toss around the SL roll and set beacons every 30 seconds or so. We are not like all the other outfits that will take any advantage to win. That is not TG's objective.
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                    Monkeying with the squad leadership structure for a logistical advantage strikes me as really, really cheesy. The squad leader is the person leading the squad, not whoever we want to put a beacon down.

                    The fact that the resupplying only is necessary when the PL makes the change is evidence of an incomplete or buggy fix on SOE's part, not designer intent. I remember when the change was put in in the first place, and I also remember when EVERY member of the squad could place beacons. The fact that the latter was removed is a much clearer indication of designer intent: this is a squad leader tool, not something everyone in the squad should be using.

                    "Detrimental to squad survivability" is okay. First off, it's NOT that big of an advantage and our squads are more than competitive without it--if we're using beacons as a crutch, we're ALREADY falling apart--and second, as Todd points out the point isn't just to win, it's to win honourably. From the primer:

                    "Within Tactical Gamer, ANY activity that capitalizes on the limitations of a game to provide the advantage rather than that advantage coming from superior teamwork, strategy and tactics, is frowned upon. We all want to win when we play, but the focus at Tactical Gamer should be one of winning with some sort of dignity, honor, and skill, not because you were able to out-exploit the other team or box them into a corner built on technological weakness that gives you the advantage."

                    If other outfits want to use cheesy, borderline, or exploitive tactics to win, let them. We'll find a way to win without, and our quality of play will be drastically higher as a result.



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                    • #11
                      Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                      Originally posted by Toddshooter View Post
                      If we are supposed to use this tactic the devs wouldn't have made it mandatory you respwan or resupply to get a spawn beacon. We could just toss around the SL roll and set beacons every 30 seconds or so.
                      But the fact is that we CAN toss it around a put a beacon down every 30 seconds WITHOUT resupplying..

                      If we couldn't then we wouldnt even be having this conversation and no body else would be doing it or mentioning it either.
                      SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                        Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                        The fact that the resupplying only is necessary when the PL makes the change is evidence of an incomplete or buggy fix on SOE's part, not designer intent. I remember when the change was put in in the first place, and I also remember when EVERY member of the squad could place beacons. The fact that the latter was removed is a much clearer indication of designer intent: this is a squad leader tool, not something everyone in the squad should be using.
                        How do you know that it is not the fact that the PL cant give a beacon is what is actually a bug?

                        Secondly I wasnt around when every one had a beacon but if either you could have 12 beacons at a time to drop on , yeah of course that got changed because its grossly overpowered. Or if only one at a time was dropped of course they changed that as well because some BR 10 doofus would place a beacon down in some garbage location in the wrong region and half the squad would accidently migrate over there..

                        I would suggest that yes this is proof of designer intent; the intent that they wanted every one to have access to place a beacon so one man could change the battle, but due to the above they had to alter it yet still allow SL to be tossed around so indeed one man could still change the battle.



                        """Detrimental to squad survivability" is okay. First off, it's NOT that big of an advantage and our squads are more than competitive without it--if we're using beacons as a crutch, we're ALREADY falling apart--and second, as Todd points out the point isn't just to win, it's to win honourably. From the primer:""

                        Dropping in 12 more people in after nearly getting whipped, dropping in medics with res grenades , sending out some one to put a beacon on the next base so you can stay in the battle and defend the current one until he is there for the back cap. Yes i do think this is a huge disadvantage.



                        Coming back from a disconnect and some patriot telling me he wont put down a beacon for me to easily get back to the other side of the map and that i should just grab a reaver because placing a beacon is againt the rules is un bearably annoying.



                        The thing is yes i know the primer, but I when it was written it did not have the for sight to deal with an issue where we really dont know that this is not designers intent, and considering the scale of use and the the fact that the devs have done nothing to change it leads me to conclude it is infact not an exploit.
                        SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                          Originally posted by Ryker View Post
                          The thing is yes i know the primer, but I when it was written it did not have the for sight to deal with an issue where we really dont know that this is not designers intent, and considering the scale of use and the the fact that the devs have done nothing to change it leads me to conclude it is infact not an exploit.
                          We are way off topic, but this seems alot like politics, but instead of arguing which view to take on the Constitution we are debating a Originalism vs Modernism view regarding the Primer; is the primer "static" or "changing" :P?

                          This issue really changes how TG plays however, if used (which at the moment it shouldn't), it further increases squad suitability and sustainability which is what we all want. But this also could be an unintended feature that'll be changed next month.

                          But hey, using Tribes as an example, look at how unintended effects changed the game.

                          “Big Brother is Watching You.”
                          ― George Orwell, "1984"

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                          • #14
                            Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                            I'm pretty sure the "everyone with a beacon" setup was a bug or oversight in the early beta days anyways. At any rate, it absolutely could not be designer intent that people were supposed to juggle the squad lead role for tactical repositioning, because that's insane and nonsensical on the face of it. The squad lead position is for the person who leads the squad, and juggling around the "on paper" status of the SL for fleeting tactical advantage smacks of exploits or rules-lawyering loopholes. "They haven't done anything about it" isn't a valid excuse, either, because there's a lot of reasons that they might not have done it aside from thinking it's ideal.

                            Even if all that's wrong, though? Designer intent isn't law for us. It's absolutely worth consideration, but there are still things we won't allow. Suicide tactics are a good example of that, we've put the kibosh on those already, and the devs have most certainly given their blessing to such reckless tactics. It's still not how WE play.

                            I still disagree that it's a big advantage. A squad that's effective and cohesive shouldn't be needing respawns in the first place, and is often detrimentally affected in the absence of extreme discipline by having those respawns available. If those beacons are the difference between the life and death of your squad, you're doing it wrong. Even if I'm wrong and it IS an albatross around our necks, oh well. We'll continue to kick ass despite the handicap and be stronger for it.

                            Getting your SL back on site after a disconnect seems like an entirely reasonable place for someone to use a beacon to me. For one, it's not being used for a tactical advantage, and technically the person who got the SL position actually IS the SL while waiting for you to reconnect.

                            My understanding of the primer is that the third item there has always been up to a little bit of interpretation, especially when TG has played games that drift away from the near-simulation genres that it was written with respect to. The Natural Selection section of TG, for instance, has their own rewriting of the primer to accommodate the fact that Natural Selection doesn't lend itself to "real world tactics". Even so, the rewriting is in line with the core principles the original document was communicating, and Planetside is far, FAR closer to the kind of game that the original primer was meant to cover.

                            Ultimately, the primer is NOT a set of rules, it's a declaration of intent, and an attempt to communicate some of the core principles, beliefs, and values of the community. In the end, the intent, not the wording, is what matters here. As far as I'm concerned, juggling SLs to place beacons doesn't pass the smell test based on my understanding of those principles.



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                            • #15
                              Re: Please encourage all members to use the forums.

                              Originally posted by penandpencilman View Post
                              But hey, using Tribes as an example, look at how unintended effects changed the game.
                              If you want to argue that juggling SLs so someone can place a beacon is as transformative and rich an evolution of the planetside formula as skiing was for Tribes, be my guest. :P



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