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I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it.

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  • I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it.

    The stuff in the brackets isn't necessary. It's more there so you can get a sense of where I'm coming from. I want to suggest this to you guys first before taking it to the PS2 forums that way I can get your feedback and suggestions. Then, if I do post on the forums, I'll have some people to give the forum some momentum.
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    [[[I don't think I've used these forums other than reading the SOPs and sending an application, so asking for your help on these forums is probably really steep but here it goes.

    I just started using these forums no longer than a couple hours ago and saw a video ghost posted titled "Only in Planetside," and the feeling I got from watching it was just amazing. Those battles from one facility to another (namely from Quartz Ridge to Indar Ex.) have always been way more fun and way more dynamic than the battles in the facilities themselves, which sadly makes up a overwhelming majority of your play time.

    When a game has battles consisting of 100s of people on the ground and in the air but then shoves it all into a base that looks like it belongs in a 6 v 6 fps, it's just so unbelievably flawed you wonder how no one has noticed it for a year. Maybe it's because small maps are often popular in fps games and people were looking more towards balance issues and the "metagame". Or maybe it's because the continents themselves were so big that it created the illusion that these massive battles were happening on an epic scale, but they were just being squished into tiny little areas this entire time. Anways...]]]
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    My point. The core problem is that the numbers have increased but the battlefield hasn't. Yeah sure the continents are huge but the facilities force you to fight in a small 10m by 10m room the entire time. That's not fun. That's not strategy. That's DEFINITELY not what Planetside 2 is supposed to be about. These small isolated bases try to separate

    I have a suggestion but it may not be the one I take to the forums. If someone has a way to fix this problem

    My idea is to take Indar Ex. Site (as a test for this idea) and separate each point, the spawn rooms, and even vehicle spawns into their own facilities that span across the whole hex instead of using just 5% of the hex. Also, the capture point's range would be a lot bigger and would span across several buildings and courtyards allowing squads to be more useful as they can each hold a room or building. The capture time would have to be decreased though since it would take a while to get from 1 point to another. I'm thinking like 7 minutes for 2 points and 3 minutes for all three. For the spawn room I was thinking it would be close to the A point and sort of be it's own facility that isn't completely cut off from A point but isn't LITERALLY right over A point. The vehicle spawn idea is similar to Indar Comm Array but instead of just a pad separated from the main base, it'd be a small facility with a couple turrets and ammo tower. The vehicle spawn could be connected to the main spawn with tunnels, teleporters, or jump pad but the terminals would have to be right beside the pads since it's an actual facility unlike Indar Comm Array which is just the pad. The air terminal could also be at this facility or just at the spawn. I'm against giving the facilities their own spawn room since I feel that would make defending too hard. The space in between the facilities would just be Indar Ex. with the coral rocks and hills and whatnot. Possibly add a few buildings in between but I feel it needs to be mostly open land so vehicles can play a role in capturing the entire base. The facilities could just be made out of buildings models already in the game. Hopefully this will allow infantry to still fight in facilities without worrying to much about vehicles but the vehicles would actually have something to do other than farm and hunt sundies which doesn't require the 10-20 tanks you usually see camping outside of Indar Ex.

    I chose Indar Ex. because it has a lot of space in it's hex that's completely unused and would be a great example of what this idea could do. It's also flat which should hopefully make it easier to work with.

    What improvements do you think my idea needs? Do you have any ideas yourself? Please share.

  • #2
    Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

    Welcome to the forums; be wary of ps2 forums though; ps2 forums !== TG ones.

    This problem is not exclusive to this game, almost every FPS has people complaining about "base camping". You can make a base a big as you want, but the enemy, if they have superior numbers, will focus on that one box you come out of, the spawn room.

    A good example of this is Tech Plants, they are the biggest bases in the game but still have problems with spawn camping. You frequently have tanks aligning themselves so they have a shot the second you step out of the shields. The underground tunnels have been implemented to provide an alternative to getting to the point, but the exits to those can be camped pretty easily as well.

    SOE has experimented with spreading out the points of a tower base with the Ascent on Amerish. 0 points are in the tower itself and all of them are about 100-200 meters away from the spawn points. This encourages the enemy to stay on the points and not camping the spawn room, but I find that through this system it benefits the attackers more than the defenders, the longer the distance to a point the harder it is to retrieve.

    “Big Brother is Watching You.”
    ― George Orwell, "1984"

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    • #3
      Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

      I completely understand where you are coming from; PlanetSide2 doesn't truly capitalize on its scale yet and that is distressing. However, there simply is no prior template to copy, no other game to be inspired by, no way to ensure any type of core gameplay change would be beneficial and not utterly disastrous.

      What PS2 works with has never been done before and much of what it wants to do has to come later down the line.

      I think we'll get what we want in the future, they've been keen on experimenting with core mechanics for some time, but its a waiting game. They can't upend the game on a dime and they can't just roll out a completely retooled rule set.

      Now this being said: they don't have all the great ideas, they want and value our feed back, and the roadmap is our key to the kingdom. I agree with you that I want battles to be more than just Capture the Flag->Spawn Camp (wait for count down). This being said we have to also not make the mechanics so complex and convoluted that the average group of players have no chance to understand it.

      On top of this we have to be aware that there are other features nearing release: Resource Retool, ANTs and Resource excavation, etc. etc.

      So where do we begin?

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      • #4
        Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

        I've actually got a lot of thoughts tangential to this on spreading out the fight and adding more operational strategy, but those'll have to wait until I'm no longer in the middle of crunch time. I've got too much flailing my arms around in a panic to do to spend writing an essay on planetside 2 at the moment. :)

        But specifically along the avenue you're thinking... I dunno. I don't like the idea of locking in this sort of thing by designer fiat. One of the reasons the fight between Indar Ex and Quartz Ridge is so interesting is because the intermediate objectives and points of interest are all emergent from player behaviour. You don't HAVE to capture that building in the middle, nothing in the lattice is stopping you from going around that and capturing the base on the other side. Instead, the PLAYERS are stopping you, by holding strategic ground that they've stuck a Sunderer behind and then holding the only approach that offers decent cover. THAT'S what I want more of.

        I think the static spawns are completely opposed to that. You hit those and now you've suddenly got a hard spawn you can't do anything but camp until the lattice says it's okay to move forward. The new amp station designs are better for this, but not ideal, especially as it becomes whackamole as you try to stop points from flipping lest they start spewing forth a zerg.

        I think a different approach might be in order. Sunderers consistently provide the most interesting spawn points and a degree of player agency to boot. They spread out the fight, are NEVER camped as they go down as soon as the fight reaches them, and they're completely player controlled. How about, just to start tossing ideas around, the idea of replacing the single hard spawns on many bases with multiple soft spawn points everywhere on a base, but make them destroyable and repairable like a turret or equipment terminal (essentially being static, permanent sunderers)? Or, if that's too vulnerable to behind-the-lines action and airstrikes, how about putting spawns everywhere but stick a short timer SCU on each one so that you can shut them down as soon as you overrun the area (hell, that doesn't require any new assets or mechanics, just level work)? The spawns at bases not on a contested lattice link could be invulnerable, but everything in a contested territory would be fair game.

        You don't have the player-agency element of it (though, by making hard spawns more similar to Sunderers, you encourage the use of Sunderers on defense) but you've got the "victory immediately results in victory and not spawn camping" element and a way to spread out the fight and make the fights more rolling and back and forth, like the ones at the Indar Ex corridor. The defenders now have a shifting front line of spawn points that shift as their control of the territory shifts.

        This way, you can have a series of rolling spawn points on a defense that never needs to stop at one spawn. The fight is spread out, and the momentum of the fight is maintained. Most importantly, a fight is never artificially extended. If the defenders are overrun, they're not going to spend the next 7 minutes poking out of a spawn room door and getting farmed, they're going to be falling back to another spawn point in the base (if available) or further back if unavailable. The resistance to pushing forward is no longer being created by waiting for a timer, it's created by players resisting your forward progress!

        You'd also add a logistics element to defensive play by both providing these extra targets to defend, AND by bringing base spawns in line with Sunderer spawns, which emphasizes the primacy of Sunderers as logistics elements. Currently, only the attackers really need to worry about their spawn logistics, which spills into armour and air play... rolling armour and air is a great way to kill an offensive, but on offense you're basically just station keeping and preventing THEIR air and armour from becoming relevant. It's a bit of a boring dynamic.



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        • #5
          Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

          Welcome liamar to the forums! Its about time.

          Penny, i do not believe you really addressed the whole topic here. Yes bigger spread out bases lend them selves more to larger numbers, teleporters could also help to alleviate The spawn camping issue but considering liamar mentioned the quartz ridge to indar ex battle as well a the foot zerg in ghosts video, I believe that he is also talking about the area in between bases, and how to make the battles there more dynamic.

          Personally I love the areas between the bases and when there arr huge battles you will rarely fine me squad leading inside a base or with the main group. For example yesterdays prime time alert we we stuck in huge battles the whole alert, and you maybe found my squad actually inside a base 30 minutes out of the 2 hours. We were usually outside hitting on coming armour from the flanks hitting sunderers as they were deploying picking apart the foot zergs. And we were very successful, we all had fun and we really punched above our weight. But the reason why i dont participate on those large battles as much as i could is because we all know how i love a battle gal in the squad, i also like to empliment fire teams which are awesome in small scale battles but are hard to find useful in the big ones.

          I guess the reason for my ramblings in the last paragraph is just to let you know I am on the same page as you and i empathize with your opinion. Yes for the in between battles setting a few small building slightly visible from the roads could encourage more of the dynamic awesome battles instead of it just being a foot zerg or two armour columbs crashing into each other on the road. Yes spreading out the bases could be better for internal base battles but the thing is it would destroy the small battles, 12-24 would no longer be as fun as they are and people would be forced into joining their local zerg just to get some good action.

          Look , for the large battles bigger bases is not the answer though a few per map like the ascent and the crown could be good. But rather the answer I believe is encouraging people to get outside the facility and make it harder for the enemy to get in or keep their sunderers alive when they are in by setting down a few sporadic 1 story buildings outside far enough away so they are usually useless to the attacker but to the defender they are perfectly home bases to set up a sunder and flank causing the whole battle to spread out whether it be to control the flanks so people can then push in or simply to have a more dynamic battle trying to get into the base and once in allow the defender a place to put a sunderer outside to have a spawn to hit enemy deployed sundays from thus kicking part of them out of the base. This opition of putting buildings away from the bases also doesnt effect the small battles because the base actual has not changed.

          Basically my agrument here is not to put little buildings in the middle of no where, though i think it would be helpful, its to ask a question, how do we encourage the masses to get part of their force off the road and use the flanks to create better more dynamic big battles and how do keep a sizable portion of people out of the bases as they continue the war for spawn options. Thus leaving the internal base less congested and spawn rooms harder to camp.



          Wrote this on my phone so grammar and spelling went to the wind
          SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

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          • #6
            Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

            Wow two people posted as i was writing .. gosh im slow
            SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

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            • #7
              Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

              Bwahahah! My mini-essay was posted first! :D



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              • #8
                Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                The main problems I'm trying to fix.
                -Separating infantry and vehicles completely.
                -Shoving hundreds of people into small bases designed for no more than 20 people.
                -Forcing the players to group up in the same place.*

                *This is a problem I should have elaborated on with the vehicle spawn facility idea Starstriker. It would serve as a safe place to pull vehicles but also a teleporter room that puts a significant distance between you and the enemy. I think being able to safely pull a sundy would fix the spawn room issue. Most people aren't looking for tunnels or teleporters, they're looking for green dots.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                  Welcome to the forums Llamar, and great topic. :)

                  I think many of the gripes people have with spawn camping and lettuce system can be solved by realizing that you don't have to place yourself / your squad inside any base or directly follow any lettuce line.

                  As I was PLing last night, I noticed that Ryker was doing this quite a bit. Also BigGaayAl (although he has not been around lately) also was a very big proponent of holding terrain / hills / features adjacent to bases, in order to support the main fight. Hold the high ground in other words, and provide supporting fire. You will see some of the smarter enemy outfits doing this also. We used to do this quite a lot, almost as an SOP, but maybe have gotten away from it lately (I dunno, have hardly been on)?

                  There is in fact a whole discussion of this related topic here: How to attack a tower.
                  "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



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                  • #10
                    Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                    I think my suggest attempts to address all the problems you list, Llamar, though I'll leave it up to others as to whether they address it adequately. I was mainly spewing ideas out in response to the preamble and the idea of encouraging sprawling battles that take place between bases rather than on the bases themselves.

                    On a second reading, I confess that I don't think I actually understand what your original suggestion is. Could you lay it out a bit more clearly?



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                      Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                      I think my suggest attempts to address all the problems you list, Llamar, though I'll leave it up to others as to whether they address it adequately. I was mainly spewing ideas out in response to the preamble and the idea of encouraging sprawling battles that take place between bases rather than on the bases themselves.

                      On a second reading, I confess that I don't think I actually understand what your original suggestion is. Could you lay it out a bit more clearly?
                      I just want more of the hex to be utilized and from my POV, the best way to do that is by separating the objectives more. Hopefully this will do several things...
                      -Promote more cohesive infantry and vehicle play
                      -Promote strategy and tactics
                      -Give you multiple battles to fight at in each base
                      -Spend less time surrounded by 4 walls

                      EDIT: I just thought of this but how about having the facility where the spawn room is be completely off limits to enemies? Or would that just create the same problem with what's essentially a bigger spawn room without shields?

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                      • #12
                        Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                        IMO, splitting up the objectives (as in, designer fiat objectives like control points and generators) doesn't really help the issue. Instead, it lends battles more of a whackamole feel than anything distributed. Personally, I've always felt that Sunderers have made the most interesting objectives and the best use of a base's terrain.

                        I don't think making the spawn room "completely off limits" really does anything. It's ALREADY completely off limits, with pain fields and shielded doors. You can try and expand that further and further out, but I'm not sure there's really a lot of utility, as you're really just making the spawn room bigger.



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                        • #13
                          Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                          Originally posted by Llamar View Post
                          The main problems I'm trying to fix.
                          -Separating infantry and vehicles completely.
                          -Shoving hundreds of people into small bases designed for no more than 20 people.
                          -Forcing the players to group up in the same place.*

                          *This is a problem I should have elaborated on with the vehicle spawn facility idea Starstriker. It would serve as a safe place to pull vehicles but also a teleporter room that puts a significant distance between you and the enemy. I think being able to safely pull a sundy would fix the spawn room issue. Most people aren't looking for tunnels or teleporters, they're looking for green dots.
                          What about pulling a sunday from a adjacent base?

                          Also you are not forced into the meat grinder , that is a choice. There are plenty of useful things you can do that dont involve you actually staying on the point. Fpr example yesterday i was leading a squad and even though it was a huge gong show due to shotty coms and a great deal of other very frustrating elements we were in bravo point at crux hq with a friendly platoon. i didnt want use all to die to a conc+ zoey swarm so we moved litterally 50 meters away from the building on to some high ground over where the enemy was running at us from.. we managed to stuff a good 3 squads and then cause them to redirect to alpha point. All while our friendly 30+ were being near useless in side B. After falling back and trying to make an attempt on A, my dodgy leading eventually caused us to stick in a bad spot to long and i got us killed.. but only after our friendly 30+ got kicked off B... probably due to zoey + concs lol.

                          Back to getting spawn camped.. if you are in that situation the enemy was probably going to win any way as they pushed you back into that position. If you really want to do something about it pull a gal and drop on point or a sunderer and have an alternative spawn from another base.


                          back to on topic of how to resolve the issue yes a transport spawn that is not in the immediate action could help and yes maybe that would encourage the masses to pull defencive suderers more often. But that is not going to relive congestion inside the base.
                          SPEAK UP! and lets combat the fog of war together.

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                          • #14
                            Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                            I think a simple and easy change to potentially toy with is the ability for any attacking team to disable the defender's spawn tubes.

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                            • #15
                              Re: I finally figured out the core problem of the game but I need your help to fix it

                              An interesting place to play with that idea might be the new amp stations, actually, where interior spawn points are capturable. Change it so that attackers don't actually get access to the new spawn point, they just prevent defenders from using it?



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