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  • [INFO] Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

    Link here.

    Important changes highlighted in bold.
    Tank Changes

    We’ve started on some adjustments that are intended to encourage more exciting and interesting tank game play.

    Currently, when a tank needs to move quickly, their only option is to go forward, which may not always be a good option. It limits the tanks options on how to get into position and can make getting caught in a bad position overly punishing. This encourages players to play overly safe by playing at a slow pace and keeping their distance from threats.

    So here are changes we’re working on to help with these problems:

    Tank reverse speed and acceleration will be made identical to the tanks forward speed and acceleration.
    Gives tanks another option to evade when caught in a bad position
    Allows tanks to retreat without having to expose rear armor
    Improves a tanks ability to evade C4 and other weapons
    Primary tank turrets will be stabilized. As the tank goes over rough terrain, the elevation of the turret won’t change with it (unless it hits a constraint).
    Being able to more reliably fire on the move opens up more tactics
    Tank effective ranges are being reduced. This consists of adding gravity and slowing down projectiles.
    This should encourage tanks to get closer to the targets they intend to fight.
    With the above three changes combined we hope to see tanks more involved in the battle. They have to get in closer which is more interesting and exciting, and at the same time are faster and more capable of shooting on the move.

    Liberator Changes

    For Liberators, we need to better balance the risk vs reward factor. We feel the risk for the Liberator is not high enough in most situations. Here are the changes we’re working on to address this:

    Effective range of Belly guns is being reduced. This consists of slowing down the projectiles.
    We feel the current range makes it too hard for ground forces to defend against the Liberator and makes it too easy for the Liberator to escape once it comes under fire. Lowering the range puts the Liberator more at risk and gives ground forces more time to respond, whether it is ducking for cover or returning fire.
    Roles of belly guns are being better defined and receiving a reduction in effectiveness versus personnel (except for the duster)
    Dalton is intended to be the premiere anti-tank weapon
    Zepher will be similar to Dalton, doing slightly less tank damage, but being slightly better at anti-personnel due to its 6 round magazine
    Shredder will be similar to Zepher in terms of tank damage, but by virtue of being a chain gun it will be slightly better against fast movers (harassers, aircraft)
    Duster is intended to be the premiere anti-personnel weapon and will be receiving some buffs
    Ammo capacity is being lowered on all belly guns
    This is also part of the risk vs reward. These guns have so much ammo that they can just be spammed. This change is intended to make gunners think about whether or not a shot is a waste of ammo.
    The bulldog will be receiving similar treatment that the belly guns are. Its effective range will be reduced and its roll better defined. Right now it’s good at everything including being better at anti-air than the walker. We’ll be reducing the projectile speed and possibly the blast damage to push it towards its intended role of a supplemental anti-ground weapon.

    The tank buster has a 90+% equip rate and completely eclipses the other nose gun options. It is too effective against heavily armored targets and has improper risk vs reward. We’ll be lowering its damage so that it is closer to the Vektor. It will still be stronger, just not by such a huge margin.

    Finally, the improvements to Liberator stock resistance to tank rounds and some heavy assault rockets made during the Liberator update are being reverted. The original change reduced too much risk. The stock Liberator will be back to being destroyed in around 2 hits from these weapons. Composite armor will still provide additional resistance but will ultimately be less than the current version.

    ESF Changes

    Moving along with the concept that the Liberator is becoming more anti-vehicle, there are some adjustments being done on the ESF side of things:
    Rocket pod effectiveness against vehicles is being reduced.
    They are all around to good. Good at killing infantry and good at killing vehicles.
    Lowering their effectiveness against vehicles further defines the Liberator as the anti-vehicle air option.
    Air hammer effectiveness against Liberators and other heavy armor vehicles will be reduced.
    The weapon is capable of doing too much DPS to these targets.
    Stabilized tank turrets should have been a release feature, how could it possibly have taken this long? Good thing I already have a maxed-out AP Racer Lightning.

    And while I agree that libs are little too strong right now, this is SOE we're talking about: they're probably going to nerf all of my weapons into the ground. All hail the new Lib meta of Spur/Duster/Hyena, since there's a >50% all the other weapons are going to be useless after this. GG.

    tl;dr: Ghostshooter is going to very happy, my 27k cert liberator is going to be very, VERY sad.


    A pilot who doesn't have any fear probably isn't flying his plane to its maximum. -Jon McBride, astronaut

  • #2
    Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

    The only good thing I see coming out of this is the gun stabilization. That was a long time coming. And I suppose the Tank Buster nerf was needed, although I wish they'd nerf the nose guns but give them back their free-aim like an actual gunship so that you don't have to spoil your gunner's shots to get it on target. :/

    Tanks reversing the same as their forward speed? That's just ridiculous, who comes up with this? It presented a clear choice between exposing your rear armor and escaping fast, or keeping your armor facing and backing out slowly. Removing tactical decisions is rarely a good idea! Even my Vanguard was already capable of backing up faster than the C4 fairies could fly. I guess this is just one more reason for nobody to use the scrapper chassis, not that I think many of our experienced tankers used it anyway. I don't know what the range change is going to do to tanks either. Tanks are usually forced to work at long range over open terrain by the prevalence of infantry lock-ons, and I say if tank range is getting reduced, so should ground lock-on range.

    The Liberator changes seem reasonable taken independently, but cumulatively that's a pretty huge nerf it's getting. If they intend for it to be more of a hit-and-run bomber rather than a loitering gunship, which seems to be the goal, maybe they should have upped the speed so it can get in and out quicker.
    Teamwork and Tactics are OP


    Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

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    • #3
      Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

      The projected changes will have a steep effect on the balance of power, specifically on Mattherson. I believe NC will be the new dominant armored force and here are my reasons:

      Vanguards are currently the dominant close range tanks due to high armor and shields, the range/velocity changes push tank combat closer, the domain of the vanguard. Lack of stabilization currently punishes vanguards more severely than prowlers since their rate of fire is so slow, and mags are unaffected at all currently so they dominate at range. The vertical stabilization will level this playing field except in one area, magriders cannot maintain full speed perpendicular to a target while at the same time bearing both main gun and turret on the target where as vanguards and prowlers can. This is a severe nerf to magriders. The speed of armor combat and specifically the increased accuracy vanguards will gain from their main cannon are both blows to the Prowlers lockdown strength due to the increased effectiveness they will have to get behind the lockdown and put rounds on the prowler, I see only a slight gain here for magriders in this regard.

      Currently on Mattherson in order for the NC to maintain air superiority the trend I see is the use of ground to air capabilities. However air superiority when maintained by the other factions they seem to rely in their air to air assets more. This appears to me to offer them uninterrupted/flexible air dominance currently which NC suffers from the most. The Lib nerfs will reduce the power of the air dominance the VS and TR seem to enjoy over NC, this will afford more freedom of movement for NC forces. The nerf of ESF anti-ground capability furthers the envelope. This may even cause a paradigm shift where NC start relying more effectively on their air assets. The enemy will likely adapt by fielding more ground to air assets however.

      At a minimum the sky just became a more hostile space to its denizens. The age of the Vanguard shall begin.



      Caution to this tale: Mattherson has its norms for we have all grown accustomed. However with the merger with Waterson comes uncertainty. Perhaps on Waterson NC dominates air with air and VS or TR dominate the ground. A mix of this culture with ours throws my theories further to question.

      Is all this good for the state of the game? Short term I think unlikely for some the reasons Starstriker mentioned and others. Longterm, possibly. Time will tell

      Thoughts?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

        A Waterson merge is likely to give us NC air dominance, I'm told the NC air outfits (PREY, which I think is actually the same people as QRY on Mattherson) are very good pilots.

        Now TGWW and SVO (where N merged into) just need to up their game again and all of a sudden things get INTERESTING in the sky! :D



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        • #5
          Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

          Sad about liberator nerf. So many thousands of certs wasted. But, the merge is good.
          The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

            They're only wasted if the liberator is nerfed to useless, and even then it'd eventually swing back around again.



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            • #7
              Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

              Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
              They're only wasted if the liberator is nerfed to useless, and even then it'd eventually swing back around again.
              This is SOE we're talking about, OF COURSE they're going to nerf it into uselessness.


              A pilot who doesn't have any fear probably isn't flying his plane to its maximum. -Jon McBride, astronaut

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                They updated this thread with a reply to add information.

                I also have several thoughts on this update:

                Tank changes:
                literally all of this is good. The stablized turret is making me scream like a giddly little school girl. Rival combat chassis will be useless for a while but I'l like to see what they say they have planned for it (super traction and power?). They've provided details in the thread about what exactly the MV changes are probably going to be and they seem very minimal. They simply want to encourage better game play.

                Lib changes:

                Regarding tank buster: This was desperately needed, and as the thread says in it's reply it will likely improve the the meta for nose guns further down the road (they're going to all suck for a while).
                Regarding Tank shell damage: Flak armor will become a useful defense slot... SAY WHAT?!
                Regarding belly gun damage: If they do this right, Liberators will actually become that unique bombing emplacement that they've always claimed themselves to be.
                AT= Dalton
                AT/AI burst damage = Zepher
                AI/AI damage over time = shredder
                AI= Duster

                Regarding belly gun muzzle velocity: I'm not too sure about this once coupled with the tank shell change. Might be bad, might not matter at all.

                ESF changes:
                These were needed ages ago! Hopefully hornets will actually get pulled now.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                  Zep, that's a good overview. However, from my understanding, the Shredder is going to look more like a primarily AV weapon, with reduced damage and no splash, but retaining high projectile velocity. Combined with the fire rate, it's going to be intended for tracking fast moving targets like Harassers and aircraft, while pulling secondary duty as an AT weapon. I'm guessing it'll scale better at range than the other options, as well.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                    Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                    Zep, that's a good overview. However, from my understanding, the Shredder is going to look more like a primarily AV weapon, with reduced damage and no splash, but retaining high projectile velocity. Combined with the fire rate, it's going to be intended for tracking fast moving targets like Harassers and aircraft, while pulling secondary duty as an AT weapon. I'm guessing it'll scale better at range than the other options, as well.
                    That actually makes a bit more sense. I was a bit confused about the role of the shredder if they did this.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                      My guess is that the Shredder will become the most common AA belly gun selection (if it isn't already), now that the Dalton will have a low enough projectile velocity to make it difficult to track ESFs.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                        "The bulldog will be receiving similar treatment that the belly guns are. Its effective range will be reduced and its roll better defined. Right now it’s good at everything including being better at anti-air than the walker. We’ll be reducing the projectile speed and possibly the blast damage to push it towards its intended role of a supplemental anti-ground weapon."

                        What the Heck

                        With this logic the dalton is better at AA than the walker. As is the Tank main gun.

                        To hit a ESF with a bulldog is incredibly difficult yet not entirely impossible and requires a very high skill ceiling. The walker is intended to be a suppressant so it is inherently easy to use but has relatively low DPS compared to a skilled bull dog gunner.

                        I'm back from camp for a day, but geez, this update, if implemented, is all sorts of wrong.

                        “Big Brother is Watching You.”
                        ― George Orwell, "1984"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                          Originally posted by penandpencilman View Post
                          With this logic the dalton is better at AA than the walker. As is the Tank main gun.
                          They both are, in the right hands, though those are strange comparisons because the bulldog should only really be compared against other tail-gun weapons.

                          Regardless, "But skill!" does not make for a good balance argument. It doesn't matter if the skill required is very large: if there's an arbitrary skill threshold beyond which a weapon performs better outside its role than weapons explicitly designed for that role, there's a design flaw. You want to use an unwieldy A2G weapon like a Dalton or Bulldog as an AA weapon as a demonstration of ability? Awesome, great, more power to you, but you shouldn't be more effective with those weapons than if you--with that same level of mad skillz--were to use the weapons actually designed for that purpose. The tank guns don't really have a lot of issues under those criteria--they've got weapon elevation and projectile speed issues that makes them poorly suited for dedicated AA duty even in skillful hands--but I can definitely see the argument for the Dalton and Bulldog. Both weapons can actually be more effective at killing ESFs due to their monstrous DPS and high per-shot impacts that prevent their targets escaping, and they can both do so (in sufficiently skilled hands) at fairly impressive ranges. I know that I'm probably more lethal against an attacking ESF with a bulldog than a walker, and I know for a fact that there are far better gunners than I in the game!

                          TL;DR: Having sufficiently high skill level should not entitle you to be able to use a weapon outside its intended role with greater effectiveness than weapons designed for that role



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                            Patch Notes are up for PTS.

                            These changes are NOT up on the PTS at the time of this posting.

                            Tank Changes

                            Tank primary turrets are now stabilized. (Their elevation will not move with chassis elevation changes, unless it hits the upper or lower constraint)
                            Tank reverse speed and acceleration is now identical to the tanks forward speed and acceleration.
                            Combat Chassis no longer improves reverse speed
                            Racer Chassis applies to forward and reverse evenly
                            Vanguard acceleration is being brought closer to the other tanks.
                            It is still the slowest tank; it was just too slow.
                            Magrider racer chassis now provides +10 kph instead of +15 kph. This brings it in line with the other MBT racer chassis.

                            Effective ranges of most anti-tank tank weaponry is being reduced.
                            Gravity on all primary cannon tank shells is being increased from 4 to 5
                            The 25 meter per second projectile speed scaling between tank cannons is being reduced to 15. High explosive tank rounds will also now have projectile speed change between factions.
                            Lightning / Magrider HE projectile speed is being reduced from 175 to 170
                            Prowler HE projectile speed is being increased from 175 to 185
                            Vanguard HE projectile speed is being increased from 175 to 200
                            Lightning / Magrider AP projectile speed is being reduced from 225 to 215
                            Prowler HEAT projectile speed is being reduced from 225 to 215
                            Prowler AP projectile speed is being reduced from 250 to 230
                            Vanguard HEAT projectile speed is being reduced from 250 to 230
                            Vanguard AP projectile speed is being reduced from 275 to 245
                            Enforcer ML85
                            We’re bringing the range of this weapon down to better differentiate it from the Halberd. The Halberd has a range advantage, the Enforcer has a damage advantage.
                            Direct Hit damage increased from 500 to 550 (Tank version only)
                            No longer has acceleration mechanics
                            Projectile no longer accelerates up to 300 meters per second
                            Launch speed increased from 200 to 230
                            Gravity increased from 3.5 to 5
                            E540 Halberd
                            Gravity increased from 3 to 5

                            Quality of Life/Misc:

                            Some soccer (or football, if you're into that sort of things) cosmetics have been added to the Depot. Buy them or you're not a true fan.
                            Added an option to turn down bloom.
                            Soldiers who place explosives will now get an assist xp award if they are detonated by someone else and the explosives kill an enemy.
                            Assist XP from explosive kills = exact same xp as a full kill
                            Engineers can now equip the ammunition package directly by pressing the ability key (default: F)
                            To match the above, the ammunition package is no longer equipped in the utility slot and it is no longer an alternate fire mode on the ACE Tool.
                            The thrown ammunition package is now a physics object and is no longer in the deploy system. This will allow it to be thrown anywhere.
                            The ammunition cert line can still be found in the Engineer Certs list.
                            The Medic tool now uses right click to revive and left click to heal.
                            The visuals on the Combat Medic’s Regeneration Field will now grow to match the range of the device as it is certed up.
                            Adjusted the visuals on the Combat Medic’s Regeneration Field to improve performance.
                            Sunderer owners now get 5xp per player who spawns on their deployed Sunderer. Increased from 2xp.
                            Flash kills are now worth 100xp, increased from 25xp.
                            Added spotting voice callouts for spotting both deployed enemy Sunderers and enemy spawn beacons.
                            Adjusted lag compensation to improve overall responsiveness.
                            Renamed ‘Pistol’ slot to ‘Sidearm’ slot. Crossbows are now listed as crossbows instead of being listed as pistols.
                            My picks:

                            Combat Chassis no longer improves reverse speed
                            Racer Chassis applies to forward and reverse evenly
                            Well. Vanguard chassis just became a no-brainer. I still can't get over the monumental silliness of this move.

                            The thrown ammunition package is now a physics object and is no longer in the deploy system. This will allow it to be thrown anywhere.
                            About damn time. Now fix turrets.
                            Teamwork and Tactics are OP


                            Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Upcoming Tank and Liberator Changes(SOE Dev Post)

                              Originally posted by Strait Raider View Post
                              Well. Vanguard chassis just became a no-brainer. I still can't get over the monumental silliness of this move.
                              They're looking for live data on the racer changes before buffing up the combat chassis (which still has the turn speed advantages). This isn't a final state for all this stuff, they're just reducing the number of changes being made at a time so they can see meaningful comparisons and results. I expect a combat chassis buff will follow in a short time.



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