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Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

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  • Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

    Lately, I'd say the majority of my time playing with the outfit, we're doing two things:

    1. A suicide point hold
    2. Armor support

    I'm not going to focus on the armor support, because we actually do that pretty well.

    Suicide Point Holds
    We gotta stop doing this. It's grating, it's not fun. We get 10 minutes of fighting done in an hour of gameplay because we die and reorganize so often.

    Point holds in concept are fine, but maybe 1 in 20 of our point holds are actually successful and even fewer are successful exclusively due to TG's efforts. (That is, we get support from a friendly zerg)

    The key reason our point holds aren't working is manpower. We send 1 squad of 8-12 men to hold the point room. The second squad of 6-10 men is usually in a supporting position. If we even have a second squad.
    Neither squad has the manpower to be effective if they are pressured.

    If we're going to get TG to stop welping on point holds, we need to recognize the manpower requirements necessary for the point hold to be successful. We're falling into a predictable pattern right now, and we need to break it.

    Things to address:

    Effectiveness
    Why are we ineffective at point holds. What can we do to increase effectiveness?
    (Should follow the K.I.S.S. methodology.)

    Friendly Support
    How can we best utilize friendlies?

    Zerging
    Are squad and platoon leads avoiding multiple TG squads working a point hold for fear of looking like a zerg?

    Alternative Tactics
    What alternative options do we have in a point hold? Tackling things outside the box.
    (Should follow the K.I.S.S. methodology.)
    http://i.imgur.com/Pn1UxKo.png - Tactical Gamer // Planetside 2

  • #2
    Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

    If we drop a squad on a point and the enemy drags 24-48 pop to push us off, that's being effective. It's also not fear of looking like a Zerg, It's putting enough men on a position with out over-popping. Those extra men could be helpful someplace else. I do agree with you that the percentage of success is low but I think we can become more effective at point holds if we keep working on callouts, accuracy and map awareness. These things take time. To be honest my objective this past month with doing "suicide" point holds isn't to JUST capture points, It's to work on the fundamentals stated above and capturing points with underpop. We've already improved a lot and I expect us to get even better. I personally think its fun and not grating to hold off a large horde of enemies while working as efficiently as possible with the rest of my squad.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

      I canīt agree on what you say Wintermote.What I notice is that everytime I log in we have a squad doing either long range AV or rolling in armor.This is the reason I havenīt played much this month,I find it repetitive and boring.Doing point holds is the only thing that keeps me playing,itīs the gameplay I enjoy the most and that one that requires the highest skill level in my opinion.
      Things to adress:
      1-Effectiveness:Thereīs allways room for improvement regarding callouts and other drills,thatīs why we practice pointholds this much.Also,with the current state of the game,or at least Emerald server we allways are on a population disadvantage,thatīs why we tend to get in hard holds.Iīd like to address that I think we should create a scheme regarding squad composition ASAP.
      2-Friendly Support:You can never trust blueberries,unless we are running joint ops thereīs not much that we can do besides using prox chat.
      3-If we can get multiple ``trainedīī TG squads in a point hold I think we would be on the same level as 00 (Recursion) and we all know how hard is to go against them...
      4-No comments.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

        If we're drawing off large counter attack forces, that's great, but could we do it better?

        Here are some thoughts for this:

        Defending in depth might help buy some time. That means sticking the second squad further up in an annoying or blocking position and then retreating as the pressure ramps. A retreat can often become impossible, or the level of force misjudged and the retreat delayed too long, which results in a wipe of the blocking squad. In that case, they need a fallback beacon or preferably a Sunderer so that they can help hold off the incoming wave of enemies. Alternatively, a squad galaxy waiting in friendly territory for a second drop can do the job.

        When using the second squad aggressively like this, I think it might make sense to also deploy the point hold squad more aggressively as well, as a support element for the blocking squad that is safe if the blocking squad wipes and close enough to the point to respond to lone wolf attacks, but is actively engaged instead of twiddling their thumbs while the other squad dies.

        A sub-element to this is detaching small elements of the squad as lone-wolf harassment elements, particularly in single squad point holds. An infiltrator or light assault playing smart, disrupting the enemy wherever they gather, and leading them on wild goose chases is a great supplement to a static room hold.

        Persisting after the point hold fails means we can take an overwhelming population of defenders and hold them at the base longer, magnifying the strategic advantage by holding them up and not letting them safely redeploy. Again, backup beacons and sunderers are what's needed for a continued presence.

        Hoarding up grenades is a trick that can buy another 10-15s in a tight point hold situation. They're often not really needed during the mid phases of the hold, but when the enemy is about to push or things are looking tenuous a hail of frag grenades can briefly scatter them. Room breaching grenades like EMP, Concussion, or Flash grenades can be even more effective; nobody sane is pushing after getting hit with an EMP and losing their shields. When seconds count, that might be the edge you need.

        On that note, don't place your bouncing Betties on the main approaches to your position! They just get wasted knocking out the ones and twos that come at you early in the hold that you were perfectly capable of killing on your own. Put them on windows, back entrances, nooks and crannies that an infiltrator or light assault might use as cover against you, etc! You can also put them on the main path in positions BEHIND your expected point of first contact (IE halfway up the stairs in your standard triple stack point hold) so that they only trigger if the enemies are starting to overwhelm your defenses.

        Staggered Deployment is another strategy that can work wonders for this by delaying the enemy's ability to even the population via the reinforcement needed spawn, or by causing them to commit less forces than they need. Keep another squad (or two; once you have three or more squads this strategy really begins to shine) out of the hex in a galaxy so they don't contribute to local population. Deploy them once the population starts turning against your point hold, guaranteeing numerical superiority for a bit longer.

        Along the same lines, periodic air sweeps by a second squad kitted for air to ground work could achieve a similar effect, hammering the base briefly to give the holding squad some breathing room, causing the enemy to pull AA that won't help them in ejecting your squad, and then leaving before they've contributed to the hex population long term.



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

          Originally posted by Wintermote View Post
          We get 10 minutes of fighting done in an hour of gameplay because we die and reorganize so often.
          I would only like to speak to this point, specifically.

          Being organized and training and everything are great, but perhaps we are doing too much of it? Everyone plays this game for different reasons and gets different things out of it, but let's not forget that at the end of the day, this is a video game that people play in their (often, limited) free time, and ostensibly FOR FUN.

          Let's just not lose sight of that, is all that I am saying.

          I have had a couple different people come up to me in private with concerns that lately we are also becoming too much like a clan, and not as much of a Community.

          I really miss BigGaayAl right about now. I used to get into his squads in the afternoons and we would sometimes do the most nonsensical things, that might not even sound like they would be fun. Things like sneaking around behind enemy lines and just planting unexpected explosives on roads, or experimenting with the Max AEGIS shield in phalanx like formations when they first came out. Or just defending the Ascent for hours on end. Things that by any sense of conventional wisdom (and certainly, Plebbit) would say are dumb or a waste of time. But man, those were some of the most fun times I ever had in Planetside. :)

          I am pretty competitive and I like to do tight organized ops, participate in alerts, and do all that stuff too in many cases. But let's not just keep doing the same old things, lest the game get stale. I have seen it too many times, especially with those sort of "elite" outfits. They only focus on KDR, effectiveness, training. getting better and better, etc. etc. and they reduce the game down to a simple calculation of what the most effective gun, or position, or whatever is, based solely on effectiveness. It reminds me of the race to the bottom in Capitalism, but we'll save political comments for the Sandbox other than to say maybe we are supposed to be role playing that as our faction after all?! LOL

          I suppose what I'm trying to say is we have been at this for a few years now, and many of us are getting very very good at this game and we are way way more organized as an outfit than we have ever been, and sometimes maybe TOO organized. Let's not over pressure ourselves, lose sight of the fact that we are here to HAVE FUN, and let's not lose sight of whimsy and new players' wonderment for the game in the name of effectiveness nor out of becoming jaded as experienced players.

          Also, you can always start your own squad, if you have a better idea, or just want to try something different! :) I find that those of us with strong opinions of how things can and should be done better, often end up being good Squad Leaders, because we have a clear vision of what we want to do. Sometimes we just need a little encouragement to take that step, and do it!
          "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

            Perhaps we could run more frequent unofficial Op Nights with themes advertised ahead?

            I will argue that if we are only playing to 'divert enemy resources' it comes across as a losing proposition: particularly if we take 5 minutes to stage and three minutes on site till we wipe, and do that many times over. It is draining and can be unrewarding. That being said success is the best panacea for down spirits, so if we win then its a blast! Its kind of a catch-22 and part of the many reasons being an SL/PL is such a stressful position.

            What I do think we should do a little more is to be highly malleable as the theater dictates it. We can fight with the Zerg and not feel cheap about it - sometimes I feel we come off very elitist in our derision of the average allied player. Every army has its fodder.


            On the subject of becoming 'clan like' I'd highly suggest that we allow and help people who want to play at a higher level compartmentalize into those 'elite' units. That was the idea behind me trying to start a PS2 IHS but it was a difficult process and one I can't devote time to now. I don't get the distinction between clan and community but I think IHS, or an unofficial IHS, can help us be both casual and competitive.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

              I feel that "Draining, or misdirecting enemy resources" is just a way of softening the fact that, really, we lost.
              Yeah, maybe we diverted 2x our number for 3-5 minutes - I've observed that having a positive effect elsewhere maybe two or three times in total. It can help in the right place and time, but I don't think most of our SL's are looking at it in that context and that way, here's what I'd consider a better alternative:

              If the intent is to capture enemy attention, then we should be a lot more fluid, not planted like a rock. Some chinese dude once said, "Attack where your enemy is weak, retreat where he is strong", and our point holds are more like "Fight where you are weak and die a lot".

              So here's how I'd run this sort of harassment operation, rather than our current method of point holds:
              Have 1-2 squads running with valkyries (squad logistics mandatory; Galaxy can also be used but it's harder to hide and keep safe), and a mix of infiltrator/hevysalts/medics. Some Infiltrators and radar bacons/darts mandatory (Recommend the radar bacons because it tells you what direction the enemy is facing, and lets you keep your gun out - darts keep the infiltrator occupied on dart duty instead of killing). Engineers unnecessary because we're not staying in position long enough for ammo to matter. Ideal squad comp is 4 heavy/4 medic/4 infiltrator; 3 fireteams w/1 of ea. class. The squads drop into the base and then rather than holding the point, everyone spreads out to get into the best positions for killing enemy planetmans. An infiltrator hacks out a stealth sundy and places it further from the base than you'd want to walk. Valkyries park nearby that sunderer, but not on top of it, and try to remain hidden from enemy air/vehicles.

              Infantry operate together where possible, in groups of 2-3, but otherwise everyone is spread across the base rather than concentrated in one spot. Engagements need to happen on our terms - we get the drop on enemy forces that redeploy to the base, rather than them getting the drop on us, so setting ambush positions and changing position every 1-3 kills helps give us initiative. We let the point get recaptured by the enemy, and then when the opportunity presents itself, someone takes it back.

              As people die, they spawn in on either the squad leader's spawn beacon, one of the valkyries (so they can get hot dropped back into the base), or the stealth sundy. (and then wait for a pilot to grab the valk and fly you in, or prepare to go in on foot, although the latter isn't preferable.)

              Those in the base fight off enemy forces until there's definitely too many for us to hold off, at that point we retreat. Infiltrators hide, everyone else reorganizes at the local stealth sunderer spawn and maybe we do a very brief AAR while we wait a few minutes for the local zerg to get bored and redeployski to a different fight, and when the numbers look good, we move in and hit the base again.

              This allows us to really harass the enemy. While we probably can't take the base - that's not the point of the operation anyways, just a bonus. We accomplish diverting enemy resources, we stay in the fight for much longer, and there's significantly less downtime for reorganization compared to redeploying back to warpgate and heading out for the nth time.

              This is what I'd try to do if the intent is to divert enemy forces, with the base objective being secondary.
              http://i.imgur.com/Pn1UxKo.png - Tactical Gamer // Planetside 2

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                This is on the lines of tasks we all ready do, normally with a small squad, when the squad is too small for a fight but enough for 'ghost cap' and to harass a bases which is not needed so we pull enemy number away from a larger fight.

                It is one of the tactics I use when I am pushing for a warp gate, attack two or three based nearby, go off hex, then to go cap the base that we need to get closer to the Warp Gate.

                [MENTION=55175]Wintermote[/MENTION] You sound like you have a plan of action, which is what we need are SL's to have. There is nothing stopping you running a TG squad this way, invite another TG member, set the squad to TG only and go from there.




                See you on the battle field.

                (6..~)Z Z z z....

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                  Wintermote, you just volunteered to be the squad leader for the next 30 days of your gameplay.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                    Wintermote, that sounds like an interesting idea and tactic. As Randy and Jan said, give Squad Leading a shot your ideas sound like fun.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                      Wintermote has very good points. I still enjoy the leaders efforts but some of the fighting has nothing on playing with a surviving squad or platoon. That time you invest before your death in game builds fun for the game in my opinion. Lately the most amazing play I have seen come out of this game just trying to work retreating then attacking. The retreat can be much better then respawning. When you respawn you miss a lot of the game.
                      And to top that the SL can put a beacon down right? Why would you not protect an asset that is really meant for respawn to be taken out by NME. I see the beacon placed for 1 person only to be taken out right before you can spawn or even in an area of our mission, because its not protected.

                      I notice that some SL are trying to keep everyone so close together 1 rocket or nade takes out 4 infrantry at a time. Sounds like a kindigarden class in the battle field when the SL is constant no stop yelling for everyone to hold hands. Hey don't get me wrong I'm right there with you but ease up a little on the slower or atleast turn around and cover them. That to me is not mature play. As for callouts they are great but when you don't even try to retreat when your number is up, it is a suicide run.
                      Its ok to move off the point against overwhelming odds to drag the fight out of the base. If you can escape you are already ready to hit the base again with reinforcements. You wanna know why that's a good fight? Because when the reinfocements are there the NME gets rolled back faster then they can regroup. YOU ARE IN THE FIELD.

                      Yes if I understand maybe we should relax just a touch and help your weak links and don't run them over when they are trying to play along side of you. If ya'll can remember make sure when you are looking for the group to be together and use your FPS view and not the map to cover your friend coming up the rear. Being a community that's what you do and that's how you bond. If this was real war I think I would of been banned for these comments but its not.
                      THis is 24 hour constant fighting game. Myself coming up in TG the server would first thin out then altogether go dead. You come back the next day at primetime all fresh and join your friends again for another blast of an evening or morning. But with PS2 it can be taxing for all leaders. There is so much todo as far as tactical play we should be staying alive longer and moving into fights with caution but also keeping the fight exciting. I know its frustrating but the payoff I have seen is a bunch of regulars after the night moves on starting to click with just callouts and non pampering. My comments are in general and I mean to attack no one here. I get along with all of you. Just my observation. I'm a watcher.

                      Winter had a very strong lead the other night. I'm sure he can do that without a problem. I don't remember you leading last time I played with you but I'm glad your leading now.
                      Sorry if my typing is bad or you don't understand me because of my thinking :)



                      FUN FUN

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                        Originally posted by Wintermote View Post
                        Galaxy can also be used but it's harder to hide and keep safe
                        I disagree! :D And they are much more survivable than those paper mache' aircraft you seem to favor! :D But hey, that's the good thing about Squad Leading, your squad, your choice of equipment / tactics.

                        I do really like the idea of trying out a somewhat more harassment (as you describe), or defense in layers (as I believe SS said earlier) instead of the bog standard "let's all park in this triple and watch a door" that we do all the time. It would be new and fresh and something fun and different. And I think this may be part of what you are getting at. I think a good SL needs to think on their feet and always be willing to change the plan if it's not working. Perhaps attack from a different approach, flank, drop by air or switch to armor. Personally, I like to allow the situation to dictate the tactics, rather than the other way around (i.e., set out for the evening and say "we're going to do armor") but that's just my preference -- I mean, by all means, if you want to do armor (or whatever) then do it. But I like to change it up to keep things fresh and effective.

                        Some times you will make the wrong call and get your squad slaughtered. Don't worry about it, it's just nanites. This is how we become better at squad leading and tactics. Just respawn and keep going (or perhaps, try a different approach). Believe me when I tell you, everyone in your squad is happy you are squad leading, and they will follow you. To a point. LOL But don't worry about that, yet. :)

                        You make a good point too about holding off a larger force. This is always a tough call and can seem senseless to the grunts on the ground. This is why, if we are a part of a larger plan (i.e., I am working in COMMAND with allies) I try and explain to my squad/platoon (briefly) what the overall plan is. I have found this keeps morale and fun high, as now everyone knows they are a part of a larger, coordinated effort. Which is one of the most fun things you can do in Planetside, when it actually works. :)

                        A final point I would make, somewhat related. We use to pride ourselves on taking those tough jobs, because we knew the blueberries didn't have the mettle for it. We used to also plan our tactics to work with / around the zerg. And by that I mean, the mass of pubbies are usually fairly predictable. They die, don't have time to wait 10 seconds (much less 30) for a revive, and so spawn again immediately on the nearest Sundy, and make a bee line for the nearest flag. So if you are aware of that, and you see a tactical situation developing that requires attention the average pubbie might not be paying attention to (eg. enemy armor attacking Sundies, enemy air dominating our grunts on the ground, etc.), then deploy your forces to deal with that threat, so that the greater numbers of blueberries can do the heavy lifting. Know your (our) strengths (highly disciplined, etc.) and weaknesses (sometimes less numbers) and play in a way that accentuates the strengths and diminishes the weaknesses (seems to me I recall some Chinese guy saying something to that effect, as well :) ). I suppose that's why we play in so many force multiplier roles, such as A/V work, airborne infantry, armor, and air squads.

                        Man, all this tactics and leadership talk is making me want to get back in game and SL a little more. :)
                        "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                          Originally posted by sparhawkxx View Post
                          Wintermote has very good points. I still enjoy the leaders efforts but some of the fighting has nothing on playing with a surviving squad or platoon. That time you invest before your death in game builds fun for the game in my opinion. Lately the most amazing play I have seen come out of this game just trying to work retreating then attacking. The retreat can be much better then respawning. When you respawn you miss a lot of the game.
                          And to top that the SL can put a beacon down right? Why would you not protect an asset that is really meant for respawn to be taken out by NME. I see the beacon placed for 1 person only to be taken out right before you can spawn or even in an area of our mission, because its not protected.

                          I notice that some SL are trying to keep everyone so close together 1 rocket or nade takes out 4 infrantry at a time. Sounds like a kindigarden class in the battle field when the SL is constant no stop yelling for everyone to hold hands. Hey don't get me wrong I'm right there with you but ease up a little on the slower or atleast turn around and cover them. That to me is not mature play. As for callouts they are great but when you don't even try to retreat when your number is up, it is a suicide run.
                          Its ok to move off the point against overwhelming odds to drag the fight out of the base. If you can escape you are already ready to hit the base again with reinforcements. You wanna know why that's a good fight? Because when the reinfocements are there the NME gets rolled back faster then they can regroup. YOU ARE IN THE FIELD.

                          Yes if I understand maybe we should relax just a touch and help your weak links and don't run them over when they are trying to play along side of you. If ya'll can remember make sure when you are looking for the group to be together and use your FPS view and not the map to cover your friend coming up the rear. Being a community that's what you do and that's how you bond. If this was real war I think I would of been banned for these comments but its not.
                          THis is 24 hour constant fighting game. Myself coming up in TG the server would first thin out then altogether go dead. You come back the next day at primetime all fresh and join your friends again for another blast of an evening or morning. But with PS2 it can be taxing for all leaders. There is so much todo as far as tactical play we should be staying alive longer and moving into fights with caution but also keeping the fight exciting. I know its frustrating but the payoff I have seen is a bunch of regulars after the night moves on starting to click with just callouts and non pampering. My comments are in general and I mean to attack no one here. I get along with all of you. Just my observation. I'm a watcher.

                          Winter had a very strong lead the other night. I'm sure he can do that without a problem. I don't remember you leading last time I played with you but I'm glad your leading now.
                          Sorry if my typing is bad or you don't understand me because of my thinking :)
                          +Rep
                          "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                            Point hold is boring and often suicidal when we drop in die in ten seconds or so and repeat. I have often used pen and paper to count the number of success and fails and amount of time spent on the ground before failure and it is often pathetic. The most common strategic error is to approach an objective with little to no knowledge of the conditions on the ground -- the most common result is immanent failure. Suicide by haste. I do not mind holding a point -- I do mind the suicidal tactic of too-quickly engaging a target and loosing 75% or more of the time. I have no time for that. TG tactics are often careless and suicidal.

                            Respawning is a result of failure. I only use it when realize that the battle is lost or unwinnable and even then I prefer a tactical retreat to respawn.

                            Yes, we need to balance tactical approach to fun action in the heat of the battle, and yes, no one style is going to appeal to all. But of late I feel that the respawn and/or fight an unwinnable fight is mostly what is happening here. I am tired of it. But I am old -- about twice as old as most TGers -- I prefer a cognitive game to a twitch game -- and I do not care to get killed often.

                            And I know that I cannot presume to speak for the majority.

                            Mostly, what I cannot abide is two strategic errors: needlessly dropping into THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT with no awareness of the actual force ratios or engaging an enemy behind lines with no logistical support and little hope of survival. Why not drop on the perimeter, assess the situation, and move in? Because the situation is dire -- pfft -- the situation is always dire -- that is no reason for reckless strategy. Far too often I have seen a TG SL/PL put us behind enemy lines or between enemy forces in what is clearly a suicidal strategy. We kid ourselves about "no suicide tactics" -- an awful lot of what we we do is just plain suicidal.

                            I do not give a damn about the WAR -- only the battle in front of me. Too often we use the excuse of the WAR to play in a sloppy fashion that ends in squad wipe.

                            Squad wipe is failure.

                            I value my life in game above all else. Life is the only value. Dying to win is not the TG way.
                            Last edited by E-Male; 03-14-2016, 12:37 AM.
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              Re: Addressing a recurring tactical issue - Suicide Point Holds

                              Originally posted by sparhawkxx View Post
                              . . . That time you invest before your death in game builds fun for the game in my opinion. Lately the most amazing play I have seen come out of this game just trying to work retreating then attacking. The retreat can be much better then respawning. When you respawn you miss a lot of the game.
                              This strikes me as one of the most revealing comments about the difference between the two major styles of play in FPS military virtual environments. The subjective investment in the game and the emotional impact -- time and emotion -- but the relationship is not absolute. It is not a matter of right or wrong: I suspect that empirical research would render clear age-based experiences -- kids have no patience to invest, older players invest time and experience virtual death differently. Not sure what gaming studies say about this but sparhawkxx's comment is the equivalent of anthropological gold.

                              I have experienced both modes and know the joy of both modes.

                              But now, in this stage of my 40 years of gaming, I'm all about investing time before death.
                              sigpic

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