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LA in squad play...

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  • LA in squad play...

    Just gonna drop this hear for all the LA naysayers XD, and also for those learning to play the class, being selective with your targets is a must

  • #2
    Re: LA in squad play...

    I've been playing LA more and more as of late, really exploiting the role's ability to disrupt and position in places not normally used.


    • #3
      Re: LA in squad play...

      I love the LA and it often saddens me when I am told to switch off of it because 'XYZ'. That video is spectacular!


      • #4
        Re: LA in squad play...

        Likewise. I've been told to switch out so often I'm starting to develop a stigma against it.


        • #5
          Re: LA in squad play...

          There is no doubt about the value of a Light assault or for that matter an Infiltrator in a TG squad.

          The 'Issue' relating to TG is simply:

          * Does using an LA or Infil' fit in with the squad leader's plan.
          * Can to SL handle the burden of a split squad (or working with fire teams).
          - * Situation awareness.
          - * Mixed Fire Discipline
          - * Multi location Contact Reports.
          - * SITREP - Is the satellite element aware how to delivery a SITuation REPort. Does the SL know how to request or use aSITREP

          We are always looking for new tactics and new Squad leaders, so if you (anyone reading) are able to take on either of theses tasks, step up and lead a squad or offer your disciplined service to the current SL.

          @BlipOnTheRadar, [MENTION=37421]Ytman[/MENTION] and anyone else who has been asked to switch class.
          Thank you for supporting your Squad leaders request.
          ...I've been told to switch out...
          ...I am told to switch off of it because 'XYZ'....

          @thefatz and every other Leader whom have implemented these tactics into their squad at sometime.
          Thank you for leading squads and trying out these tactics.
          ...exploiting the role's ability to disrupt and position in places not normally used....

          This topic has been discussed numerous times but the decision to employ 'these tactics' and use LA or Infil' lays with the Squad lead at that time.

          Discussion about using Light Assaults:

          Primer and Standard Operating Procedures notes:

          From General SOP
          * Respect the chain of command and follow squad and platoon leader orders.
          * If you disagree with your orders or are not happy with the units' mission, feel free to join another squad or start your own.

          From the Primer
          * Tactical Gamer requires teamwork because only through working as a team can we complete the objectives we are assigned.

          Principles of Being a Good Squad Member:


          Compliance Enforcement -
          Fire-Discipline -]
          Contact Reports -
          Situation Report -
          New Squad Leaders Start Here -
          Integrating light assaults into the squad -
          All SOP's -
          Primer -
          Principles of Being a Good Squad Member -

          (6..~)Z Z z z....


          • #6
            Re: LA in squad play...

            Oh yeah definatly the topic wasn't a "LEMME PLAY LA ALL THE TIME" but rather a suggestion for SL's to be open to idea, as opposed to hearing the words "Light assault" and nearly instantaneously shutting the idea down, id also ecourage SL's to utilize the class as it offers beacon utility. Its Also a bit of a joke running with many of us too that people say to me just because its funny is "La's Are useless," they don't mean it but its sort of a funny joke going around, and this was a bit in theme with that. Even with as much as I Hate playing the heavy I will switch out if the SL asks of me.


            • #7
              Re: LA in squad play...

     also a good video by sergeant merrel explaining why some higher BR's and often times SL's should and have taken a look at the class


              • #8
                Re: LA in squad play...

                Originally posted by RaymondScout View Post
                Just gonna drop this hear for all the LA naysayers XD, and also for those learning to play the class, being selective with your targets is a must
                And again, in English:

                Originally posted by RaymondScout View Post
                Just gonna drop this HERE for all of the LA naysayers XD, and for those learning to play the class. Being selective with your targets is a must.

                Hmmm, I very much dislike LA's, it seems. ;-)
                MacKahan -- Mac-Kay-an In case you were curious. ;-)



                • #9
                  Re: LA in squad play...

                  Alright [MENTION=101716]RaymondScout[/MENTION], you have convinced me to give you some support in your cause. :)

                  Firstly, I will state that I have never known RaymondScout to be anything less than a fine squadmate. He always follows orders. Even though we all know he would probably prefer to play LA, he never hesitates to pull whatever other class is needed, or requested.

                  The forums are the appropriate place to attempt to influence people to effect change. As opposed to in game in the middle of the heat of battle, where we follow CoC for numerous reasons which I'm sure we all agree are self evident.

                  On to the point then. The video above does make some great points as regards the LA, the most salient being the part where he asks the viewer "what am I doing wrong here" (please go watch video if you haven't already, before you continue reading).

                  Of course, the point is that if you are not flanking and using strange positions to give yourself bases of fire from unexpected directions, than you are not utilizing the class as it was intended. However, in order to effect this, the LA must be granted some level of autonomy from the squad. And I think this is where there is usually a perceived conflict in a TG squad. But stay with me for a moment.

                  How is this any different from the relative autonomy that we would give a squad of air, or even armor for that matter, as a part of a larger platoon? I can recall a time where we used to not do that either, and it was extremely ineffective. However luckily, we have a lot of good pilots/tankers (and people just well versed in tactics) in the leadership ranks and SL and PLing such that our asset doctrines have mostly evolved along the lines of "try to stay with / support the troops on the ground as much as possible (and as a primary directive) but when there is too much AA/AT or whatever, break off and give support wherever and however you can."

                  Why should LAs be treated any differently?

                  Or, perhaps we struggle with finding a place for them because there are no explicit real world tactics that utilize LAs (as jet powered backpacks are not a real world technology)? But, for arguments sake, consider for a moment that they were. How would a real world army best employ them? I think any smart tactician in the real world would utilize them just as the weapons system was intended, which is to say, something along the lines of the above video. Or, as I stated above, to give fire support to the squad by putting down bases of fire from unexpected directions. Which practically requires them to be somewhat separated from the squad.

                  Obviously there are a lot of personalities involved, some SLs like to run a closer/tighter squad than others. But I don't think anyone here is advocating for LAs to just run off and do whatever they want.

                  Furthermore, why would we assume that a well known TG member in good standing (like RaymondScout) would run off like that anyway? I think that sort of notion might be a little bit insulting to someone meeting that description. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment.

                  Now I have certainly poked my share of fun at LAs and Infils, often referring to them openly as "useless classes." Which is quite often true, as they are typically utilized by the vast majority of undisciplined pubbies. But we are not talking about undisciplined pubbies here, we are talking about RaymondScout (and other solid, dependable TG members) who just happen to like to play LA.

                  So, the next time I am SLing, and RaymondScout (or someone else) wants to play LA, I think I am going to let them. And I would encourage you to do the same. And grant them a little leeway to position themselves properly, so as to best utilize the class, and thereby, support the squad.
                  "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw


                  • #10
                    Re: LA in squad play...

                    Originally posted by Randy_Shughart_ClwFL View Post
                    Of course, the point is that if you are not flanking and using strange positions to give yourself bases of fire from unexpected directions, than you are not utilizing the class as it was intended. However, in order to effect this, the LA must be granted some level of autonomy from the squad. And I think this is where there is usually a perceived conflict in a TG squad. But stay with me for a moment.
                    Something I've experimented with in the past--to fairly good effect--was giving autonomy to an infiltrator during a more rote static point hold. The infil was able to report on the outside, hit targets of opportunity, destabilize enemies clustering around a choke point to prevent a successful breach, and draw enemy attention away from the CP. There's no reason a light assault can't fill a similar role.

                    In my eyes the big conflict with a roving infil or LA has to do with squad cohesion and endurance. One of our great strengths is that we keep everyone together, support one another, and ensure everyone is healed up and on their feet. Our medics and our squad cohesion allow us to hold out in the face of enormous attrition without having to resort to spawn options. That's a HUGE advantage, and a lot of our standard procedures have been geared around ensuring the medics are able to do their jobs effectively.

                    The problem lies in that, barring local spawn options, a roaming LA or infil is going to have a very limited lifespan. They're unlikely to be revivable, and thus they're going to end up dead permanently and leave the squad down a man. Whatever disruption they can accomplish with that is going to quickly become negligible, or counterproductive if we push out to rescue them and lose more people for our trouble. The Light Assault in particular suffers from this; an infiltrator is still a valuable squad support member even without the ability to roam (EMP, recon darts, a designated marksman or countersniper role, etc). The light assault, however, is pretty much wasted tethered to the squad, since they have no squad support role to fill and are inferior in terms of combat gear to a medic or heavy and on par with an engineer. There's some minor utility in being able to call on a light assault opportunistically (to take a rooftop or clear a beacon, for instance), but I don't think that typically outweighs the opportunity cost for us.

                    While we're on the subject of the shortcomings, there's also the issue of maintaining squad discipline. With a very disciplined squad this wouldn't be a problem, but in a less disciplined squad (lots of newer members or blues, more casual minded, etc) allowing one person to roam is going to encourage other people to roam, requiring more squad leader attention.

                    All that said...

                    The core assumption in my objection to LA use in squad play is "barring local spawn options", and if this isn't true then a lot more opens up. A Sunderer, hard spawn, or relatively safe beacon can allow them to continue operating even after their (likely) deaths, leaving the squad only minorly inconvenienced by their loss.

                    The most important question to be answered, though, is "how is it worthwhile to have this roaming player in the squad structure". I happily acknowledge that a roaming infil or LA can wreak enormous havoc on the enemy, but if a random blue could have the same effect then I'd rather have my squad member in something more team focused. Any role for a roaming element, then, NEEDS to have some kind of coordinated or synergistic place within the larger squad.

                    The aforementioned point hold scenario is a good example of a place where there's a lot of synergistic gains to be had. An infil roaming around outside is not only a disruptive element, but a recon element able to call out major threats before the soldiers on the point hold will see them. They're able to act as the SL's eyes and ears on the outside, and hit the targets the SL feels are a priority. A light assault, or team of light assaults, would be much more prone to attrition and aggressive in character, so they'd be more disruption than recon, but they'd also be able to sweep in behind an enemy breach and clean them up in coordination with the point hold defenders.

                    Another situation where integration would have obvious benefits is in a breach. The typical Triple building that you find a CP in has roof, window, and balcony entrances that accessible to LAs, and close coordination with the rest of the squad would allow the light assaults to hit the roof or windows at the same moment as the breach proper is happening, dividing enemy attention and killing defenders at the moment they least want to be distracted.


                    • #11
                      Re: LA in squad play...

                      -Granted this falls under the different strokes for different blokes "Or something like that" category, but in regards to starstrikers words of get in and set up fort nox style im of the opinion That locking down the point and waiting for people to come in isnt always going to be the best idea for capturing a base. If we have the advantage on certain bases (Think Single point Caps) it may be beneficial to push the advantage and set up a more forward position, at least temporarily another area that the LA would be beneficial in. My thoughts on why it would be beneficial is listed below
                      -Planetside 2 is based on clientside hit detection. This means that by the time someone has entered the room and you see them its already too late and they've killed probably at least one person (depending on ttk of the weapon), this becomes time that the medic has to use and risk itself to res said person. Now take this and times it by five attackers and suddenly you have 5 guys dead in need of ressing witch takes time not to mention the medic lacks the ability to defend itself whilst ressing. Now you got a squad vulnerable from attack whilst a few of its members are lying there dead on the floor. Obviously its not a position that cant be overcome from but it does weaken the team on a whole from moment to moment.
                      -Now Lets think about a forward position say in some rocks overlooking the way to the point. here you can pop up and over the ledges giving you the advantage when it comes to individual engagements. Medics have a clear set of cover to res allies behind with a lower likeleyhood of someone popping in the back door and blasting them and your getting the latency advantage in a majority of engagements.
                      -In the real world defenders typically have the advantage, but in planet side due to its lag compensation measures a person rounding the corner has a typical split second advantage.
                      Obviously this doesnt work for every base and every fight, there will be population advantages no good setup spot for a forward position to much enemy air, multi point bases etc... but were it does work, I think it could be beneficial to at least try. Clearly its up to the squad lead as to what he thinks will be best but I think its something to consider.
                      -Also I think it should be mentioned that Although, its doable attacking a base shouldn't be done without sunderer support of some means, because you have no access to backup (Sub for beacons), from your own squad or from friendlies in the area. (It can be done without but, when attacking a base you want every advantage you can manage)
                      -Also theres times were the spawn options are being destroyed and thats usually when its best to hold up fort nox style and also were the disruption element is less useful, so for those people its a good idea to switch back to the Medi Engi Or Heavy at said times.
                      -as Far as breaching goes the method described by star striker was something I always pondered but either forgot about the idea whilst I was SL'ing, or had assumed when I did remember that the sl wouldnt be game for it.

                      I think I should also mention that the LA is actually quite capable of filling the designated marksmen roll, For longer range a blackhand works wonders on the class, and with practice the crossbow is quite capable post buff. Also the La Is one of the best sniper hunters around if I do say so myself, hes just got to be given the freedom to chase the infil down if close enough. Also in weighing at as far as effectiveness is concerned if a la needs to be recalled back to the point hold fort nox etc... area your basically fighting with a engi - the turret but + the ability to perch on top of doorways and things of that nature.

                      -Im not Saying that La's are great for every situation. Im not saying that just anyone should take up that role. And I am NOT saying people should be given the freedom to meander wherever the heck they want and screw around.
                      What I am saying is that they can be used, and can be effective in there jobs given the flexibility to do so.

                      OTHER NOTES
                      -I also think I should note that LA's are going to be key in taking down enemy installations come the construction system update. hopefully a brick or two of c-4 will be able to kill repair and ai modules but I haven't tested this yet.
                      -That and I would also like to see some Squad based utility added to the class, perhaps deployable grav lifts and stuff etc.




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