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The art of war.......

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  • The art of war.......

    Having had 6 years in spec ops as a recon/surveil specialist, I can tell you that the team with the best intel wins the battle. I have seen too many times when the battle turns into hamburger hill only because the SL or PL didn't know what they were getting into and focuses on a point or objective with disregard to the enemy's strengths. What happens is that we are mowed down and respawn to be mowed down again and again only to eventually give up the objective, giving the enemy the base and all those certs and points in the process of killing us.

    What I propose is something I haven't seen as of yet........gathering intel. My thought is simply this:

    1) Decide on the objective
    2) Drop a infil in the area (preferably on the highest point near the objective) The infil has stealth but more importantly a high powered scope to view the objective.
    3) Intel report includes the minimium info, a) enemy strenght, b) enemy entrenchment, c) enemy armor and it's strength, d) enemy air support and it's strength if present
    4) The infil stays on site while troops assessment is determined by the PL.
    5) If the objective is decided to be activated, the infil stays on point to updates intel while deployment gets underway
    6) If troop assessment is determined to be too "undergunned" for the objective the infil hits delete and respawns at warpgate for deployment to another location to gather intel.

    The infil can be deployed via a gal flyover if necessary, once the campaign begins the infil can take targets of opportunity (I have to admit I love those "headshots") or if they have the tactical position of height, remain in cover and update the flow of battle with regards to enemy re-inforcements. The key to all of this is discipline. The infil has to give clear and concise intel, the infil has to restrain from taking any targets until the battle begins, the infil has to be willing to leave the battle to scout the next objective without regards to points or certs. All of which means the infil HAS to be a [TG] member. (Targets of opportunity are the infil's rewards.....heh heh heh.)

    Having been in war, having the duty of intel, I can tell you it's a thankless job. But one which swayed the battle in our favor.............just like in RL, you have to pick your battles.

    Just my 2 cents. Any thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: The art of war.......

    I think the idea of a recon squad has been discussed before. I don't know if anyone has implemented it. Most of the time the CAS or any random ESF will be sent to a forward location to scout during normal platoon ops. That's a very limited and short-term form of recon, however.

    What do you think of a 3 to 4-man squad of infils using wraith flashes and spawn beacons to get around the map? 2 with long guns and 2 with SMGs for CQ, mine placement, and hacking? Scout, report, and either move on or prepare the grounds.
    In game handle: Steel Scion


    • #3
      Re: The art of war.......

      I think the idea is great, but I would implement a 6 man squad for quick caps and vectored firing lines for protection. With 6 men you could establish total observable terrain from all sides and as infils put the enemy in disarray, confusion, and have the psychological edge as well as LOS targeting for enemy infils. It would mean that the enemy would almost HAVE to call in air strike if they have it though. But that should be plan-able from a PL stand point. The team would work at certing up their infills as well as flashes and aircraft.........think 6 men as in 2 libs with vectored fire as well. 6 guys means 6 possible libs, 2 pulled with 4 on cool down.

      Since you mentioned hacking (which would be the normal course) you could have a console being hacked with 2 other men in total fire cover equaling 2 consoles per team. Hack a turret and have 2 guys wasting the popped out turret driver while the hacker pops in and starts bring down enemy aircraft or armor without the problem of being ejected himself. As HA it's rarely the aircraft that get's the infantry. With flying targets in the air, 2 guys switch to HA and start popping aircraft while being covered just to shake the enemy up............once you start getting locks on them or smoke them a bit they usually leave pretty quick. Imagine being on a base with total fire cover while hacking a gal terminal to fly the team out and all of the enemy knows your there.............yes it's possible and I have the plan for it for a team like this.

      Everyone moves as a team, if one dies he stays in queue until the others either die or he spawns on beacon, as soon as everyone is together the beacon is removed so not to give away their location. When 1 or 2 die the remaining members adjust their positions to cover the missing assignments until the team is together again.

      So in essence, it means 6 guys with the discipline and desire to be the best. Best recon, best vehicle drivers, best pilots in TG and more than likely best well known team on the server. It would require some training because each would have to know their job, and it will require some time in order to cert up the specialty. But anyone coming on the server and seeing TG - spec ops team, knows they are in for a fight, plain and simple. Of course this might not be the sort of thing TG wants........but it's certainly the thing it needs.


      • #4
        Re: The art of war.......

        Its worded beautiful. Ya'll havn't went on squad runs with me so let me tell you what I do. You havn't seen me do it latey because the Platoon has been filling up so fast. We first gal drop into enemy territory not touching the point till Hacked. And a possible pull of a sunderer to let friendlies into the party. I find if the surrounding bases are heavily occupied you need a way to get the Public wedged into the fight :) Letting you also slip out of the remaing victory to your next win.

        Now if the area is very low enemy we drop in, don't even pull sunderer ,drop beacon and after its hacked let the squad cap to halfway while me as SL and sniper take a reaver or flash to the next target. At my landing I drop beacon hack pull sunderer if any threats are near. Then if all is ok on the other end of the squad I give the command to deploy on my position whilst I flip the point then going to keep a close watch on there spawn. You check into your squad because if they are fighting and its going to be awhile the SL can just redeploy on them because they will have the cap by the time the sniper is setup. You are playing the game as it should be by capturing and defending when you are supposed to. I hate seeing people cap and leave while they see enemy going back for there point. That's only done if you have the public involved.

        And that's why I hate the new flip system. Instead of dedicating to your objective you just camp a small shed with small exits. Very unchallenging and demorilizing for both fractions involved. Unless that's SOE' plan. And for what I don't know :(

        You cleaned it up Very nicely Rage and we have to get this in the works somehow. Can you imagine a full sniper squad dedicated to just that. Would be a first for me to see it done on that scale. And that squad couldn't be in a platoon. To much chatter the PL would have to use TS to communicate with that SL. I also envy the infiltrator squad because that's how we played as a squad in CSS. It was a smaller group of people working tight together.

        Awake gave me the idea of the stealth charge :) And I thank him.

        FUN FUN


        • #5
          Re: The art of war.......

          I've heard it said "this is a game and not real life" and I couldn't agree more with the concept ........but only if given the opportunity to prove that this game can mimic real life with strategies and objectives used in real life. I like your vision and your style hawk and would like the opportunity to learn more about the way you operated the squad. It can happen and probably will happen to a greater or lesser degree than what I've put forth. But what a vision eh?

          Imagine alert is issued, not only is it capped in the time, but it becomes the record time.......maybe that's too much to expect, but then again maybe not.

          They say that you learn from your mistakes, in my point of view the enemy is the mistake, how many times have we gone to fast cap an objective only to find 1 or 2 opposition forces there. Has anyone ever thought (and I'm sure they have) why are we were taking resistance at a relatively obscure outpost. I can tell you it's because another squad is already employing techniques that we're discussing now and they are utilizing the techniques I used while playing mostly defense in Quake, I always "put my foot on the flag" in ctf.

          In theory, the team (team not squad even though we're put in squads by SOE) fast caps the objective, scouts an objective or just disrupts the opposing force, the "regulars" come in to cap-sits or finalize the objective. If the PL has their crap in one sock they will assign a baby-sitter to the cap (like the opposition does) to notify the PL of any resistance so they can reclaim. They will have to rely on the TG squad to to this as the zerks either won't, or can't to any effectiveness.

          The baby-sitter(s) will have ample opportunity to cert up as the opposition WILL come, and will provide ample opportunity for points and certs. This is where "patience is the virtue" and development of strategies to handle this will either be created or the alert initiative dies and the role of leadership becomes more demanding.......surprising just like in real life.

          As far as getting this in the works.....its simple, the TG leadership has to agree to it, we fly under the TG banner and that's our loyalty, period no discussion. Once we have their blessings then we begin and organize in a manner that will boggle the mind. We can begin as a 2 member squad until we find the recruitment from within the ranks that we need. We, you and I start working on strategies to utilize the blue-berry farm to our advantage, after all we are all NC. We, you and I start working on training aspects that will be incorporated into the requirements and training for the other squad members while fast capping ourselves in developing those training aspects and learn to utilize the blue-berry farm. Understanding of course the disadvantages and mentality of blue-berries. We organize, improvise, and implement to the advantage of TG. We belong, but we're different, we're surgical, top of the food chain ........... who-ya.


          • #6
            Re: The art of war.......

            If I ever function as a Platoon Leader, this will be one of the very first things I do, and the rest of the platoon WILL wait for the intel. (i.e. there will be comms silence as the infiltrator delivers their intel over platoon comms) Once we have the intel, strategy and tactics will follow to secure the objective and plan our next assault. If we want to play war, we might as well do it right. :-)


            • #7
              Re: The art of war.......

              Advice from a PL standpoint; if we want this kind of squad to happen, individuals need to adress the PL, volunteer to lead said squad, and explain the idea of it to the PL. Possibly you could organize beforehand too of course, a PL and SL that understand the idea is all that is needed.

              @Rage. Very nice posts man, it is very interesting to have someone with your experience able to give us insight.

              What resonated with me in your OP was your comments about focusing on a small objective whilst all our guys are getting mowed down. I've had several posts about this. I've been trying to get our guys to think of advantageous firing positions before thinking about game-objectives. As I am now decided that a battle is won or lost not on those game-objectives, but purely by who has better firing positions, who has the surround.

              On intel:

              I want to add that the map offers an incredible amount of data now imo for a PL. It takes more time to switch trough the different options (territory/allied/enemy) but you can now so much from that.

              There are some blindspots though, things you cannot learn from the map:

              -Airborne enemies
              They show up on the map, but only minutes later. So a platoon size airforce will show up on the map erratically. Suddenly platoons will appear and disappear from the map at seemingly impossible places. This is very hard to spot on the map, but a scout can quite easily spot this if he is in the relevant area.

              -How organised is the enemy? (who is the enemy)
              An enemy platoon is coming towards you. Is it a bunch of zergs that are perhaps in small squads, perhaps scattered and attacking blindly? Or is it a TE (The Enclave) platoon with buzzcut?
              This intel would be very valuable to a PL as it could allow him to retreat to where reinforcements are available, or it could allow him to say, "hey they have more guys than us, but it's a zerg, so I think we can hold em off.

              -What is the enemy doing exactly?
              Again you cannot see this on the map. It is not always something you need to know, but it is ALWAYS better to have the information available.

              -Having a birds eye view on the battle.
              THe PL is usually in the middle of the battle, or away from it. Rarely can he afford to be looking down from outside of the battle. where he can see the battle unfold; it requires attention to stay hidden. Having a scout high, and perhaps a little behind the enemy attack, can help to identify key weaknesses.
              e.g. Identifying an undefended sundy that is carrying the sole spawn for a threatening enemy attack, can turn the tide. The PL can then afford to split off some guys to attack that even though he is losing the battle already. Because he knows the weak point, he can employ a tactic that he couldn't otherwise because it would be too much of a long-shot. THe PL could for example incorrectly think that the enemy has many sundys.

              I do believe this kind of gameplay can add a new level of depth and fun for our gameplay. Having correct intel will allow us to do much more planned, much more effective attacks. Im for it.


              Command squad

              I want to add a different way of doing an intel squad easily and effectively. One day I was in the PL squad because I felt more like chatting, drinking coffee and sitting around a bit. So I sat in Emale's squad and did variour tasks for him; defending his sundy, but also switching to infiltrator and going off to find out specific things the PL wanted to know. It was a lot of fun to do and a nice change in style from normal gameplay. It was utterly easy to organise, and having the PL INSIDE the intel squad certainly makes buckets of sense. Furthermore with only the PL, and the infiltrator, as SL, with a 2 man squad, I could set a spawnbeacon for myself and access any high ground I wanted, or I could respawn indefinitely near large forces if I only place the beacon far enough.

              I could also function as a second in command; an assistant to the PL that he can bounce ideas off. If I'm not sure about an idea.. I can simply go look, gather more intel, then give better advice. I should have posted about this earlier. It's fun, makes PL-ing a much less lonely chore, and -I think- makes a PL actually considerably more effective, especially the ones that like to lead in a separate squad.

              I called it the "command squad" at the time. Basically a private team belonging to the PL specifically working to make him more effective, making his job easier. It could be one person, it could be a bit more. We were in fact also function as a recruiting squad. People would joint it get the brought up to speed, and then they were moved into one of the main squads.


              • #8
                Re: The art of war.......

                Count me among those who also am a believer in intel. This is another thought I had in passing but kudos to you for writing it up and starting a discussion.

                In addition to those listed by Al, another form of intel that you cannot tell from the map are which outer points of a large base (Bio Lab or Tech Plant) are friendly or enemy. While running the air squad, I have been asked by PL to scout those objectives out while the rest of the platoon is still battling on the previous objective, or forming up to move out. I would usually send one Reaver to do an intel pass, and then have that pilot make his report direct to the PL in platoon channel.

                But I like the idea of an Infiltrator scouting from a nice high, hidden location. In Project Reality, kits were limited and there was only one sniper kit per side of 32 players. And the main purpose of the sniper was to gather intel, NOT to kill enemies (although as you also point out, "targets of opportunity" are your reward once the battle begins, lol).

                So to that end, another thing I think the Infil/Sniper could do is Q spot a lot of enemies. This helps everyone's situational awareness. But especially knowing where tanks and sundies (or concentrations of infantry) are is always helpful. This not only helps our platoon(s) who receive the intel through our comms, but also gets the information to all blueberries that may be in the area. In a large battle, that can be a significant amount of additional attention on the target.

                I think one could live a long time as a sniper if they were careful and didn't kill too many enemies. Because, in my experience, as soon as you start doing the headshots on infantry, everyone stops doing what they are doing and begins searching for the sniper. lol Well, I know that I do anyway usually. And sometimes that can be an objective in itself, when you are tying up one or two squads (or more!) looking around for you, instead of going to their next objective. I know that sometimes as an infantry SL I realize that I am doing this and tell my guys let's just go to the next objective, I am not going to allow one guy to tie up my whole squad (or platoon).

                Al makes some good points about using the squad beacon for respawns which I had not even considered. But for initial insertion, I would be happy to volunteer to put you in, I think the aircraft of choice for that would be a Liberator however. It is smaller and faster than a Galaxy, and draws less attention. I can fly pretty low and fast and put you in spots behind enemy lines without them even noticing probably. And I could put you in spots so high as to be unreachable by enemy ground forces, including LAs. Of course, this would be for a maximum of 2 man sniper team. If you wanted to do more of a half squad Spec Ops team and do capping, etc. I would be happy to volunteer for that as well as I have a pretty well tricked out Gal, if you like after insertion I can even circle and provide some CAS.

                I am glad to see such a positive response to this thread, I was afraid too many people would not like to take this role because at times it could be solitary and you are out of the fight (when scouting in a small one or two man team). Not a lot of people may want to do that, but a lot of guys here at TG probably would. That is what makes this a great community, a lot of people who are more tactically minded and also willing to perform support roles, even if that means they are not in the fight as much sometimes maybe.
                "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw


                • #9
                  Re: The art of war.......

                  Originally posted by Randy_Shughart_ClwFL View Post
                  So to that end, another thing I think the Infil/Sniper could do is Q spot a lot of enemies.

                  Also, why not use multiple Infiltrators to provide intel on the whole continent? Let say... 1 from each squad. Or maybe just a region, and multiple infiltrators could Q-spot the enemy. Randy is right, this would provide excellent situational awareness for all members of a platoon.


                  • #10
                    Re: The art of war.......

                    The squad I'm thinking about would be a set squad.......I have been speaking to several people who know and understand the scope and practice of a team like this and want to be apart of it. We would have a core group with reserves for times when the all of the core couldn't make it. It will require a commitment as there will need to be training and strategies planned out before entering the battle. This will be a surgical team, with their own respawns (if you have the boots dropping on the teams spawns then you might as well tell the enemy where we are cause in a way that's exactly what you're doing). The squad carrying their own beacon has already been talked about and agreed on.

                    Al, remember when we had that small squad at the ascent and you were perched up on top of the mountain above it feeding intel on aircraft. How many enemy aircraft and boots did we kill that day? The entire area around us was captured and there we sat like a sore thumb for the enemy. And we were just fooling around because the view was so nice..........

                    The squad I'm proposing would be the eyes and ears of the PL, on large spread out bases (after the initial scout report) station around the perimeter to watch the flow of battle with immediate updates on squad spawn, obtainment of enemy objectives, etc.. In places like bio-labs placed on perimeter for outpost, once the outpost are taken, then proceed into their "back pocket" by broaching the bio-lab and setting up in key locations for intel, hacking terminals etc. At the same time, the spec-op squad has to have the ability to determine their own objectives and fast cap outpost of little or no significance, Why? Because we all need bones from time to time to make it interesting and fun. Fast caps lets us train as a unit in stationing and deployment and gives us the certs we need to become more effective for the PL.

                    Yes Randy, a sniper can cause disruption to the's what I call the psychological advantage. Two events come to mind, one a base we had under siege but they had the height advantage and was raining death around us. As a infil I dropped the max on the pad with 2 headshots. The 5 other guys around him in unicent turned and watch him drop like a sack of potatoes. Then started looking for me......I dropped another one with a they started running around like chickens, dropped another and then they ran like scalded dogs.
                    In this same scenario the spec-ops SL would call out targets with 2 snipers focusing on the max (it takes 2 headshot to drop a max), within a period of a second 1 max and 4 of the others just dropped dead on the flight pad. If that didn't push the enemy away from utilizing height advantage, then drop 6 more. The point is that it has to happen in relatively quick time and they need to be close together to get the maximum effectiveness from the technique.

                    Yesterday I was in a squad but kinda "lone gunning" for a second. I was sniping HA's and dropped a max, when all of a sudden up pops this infil just off the crosshair. I adjusted and dropped him with a headshot. Sometimes you need to just send messages, I'd say that 80% of the infil's out there are zerks that think it's cool to be an infil. They cloak and uncloak at the wrong times, and just shoot targets of opportunity. Have one of them uncloak in your sight and they die a half second later and they will reconsider their role. But drop a infil on the pad gives you an even greater psychological advantage. Hey you just killed their

                    And as far as being out of the fight.......well you're not really out of the fight. Your one of the those sneaky little ba***rds that determines how the final results are going to be obtained and like a good war movie watch it unfold around you. Once the campaign is underway and the base is close to securement, we sneak away to gather more intel on the next objective or fast cap our own. And personally I get a great degree of satisfaction from seeing that *HEADSHOT* pop up when I pull the trigger.

                    And sometimes you can have fun with the blueberries, in prox chat tell the guys around you that the spec-op team is gonna set smoke on the enemy sundy and we need to take it out. One of the team goes down and lights it up and sits back and watches the wave of blueberries descend on the

           far as multiple infil's working for the PL, thats alot of info to process in the heat of a pressing campaign and in addition throwing objective planning in at the same time. My experience has been to have one team that does something very well. A complete squad could be made up of 2 teams, but you'd only have 1 beacon to deploy..........counter productive in my opinion, unless the other teams was inserted but they would have no respawn.


                    • #11
                      Re: The art of war.......

                      I'm game for this and when I can will join up to help this tactic work. It is a very underused tactic and would cripple the enemy time and time again. So when I think the platoon can do without me I think I will becoming an elite sniper outside of the direct platoon. Love this plan and stand behind it 100%. Let the stealth charge begin :)

                      P.S. Rage copy and paste this and start a new thread with it so it doesn't get lost in your original post.

                      FUN FUN


                      • #12
                        Re: The art of war.......

                        Great ideas.

                        Every concept (tactic/strategy/ect) needs to be tested against the game dynamics, leadership assets, and so on, so lets start the testing!

                        I have see, far too often, a squad or a platoon run deep into a battle and get wiped because intel was lacking and terrain advantages were not used. BigGaayAl has an excellent way of making use of geography and controlling zones, Randy does great work at insisting on cohesion, and Rage and others are throwing more ideas into the mill -- this is great.

                        It is such a pity that the PL structure is so ridged within the game design. Not much use in speculating on what could be done with a more flexible/expandable comm and platoon structure, but the game is so close to perfect it just makes me weep that the designers failed to incorporate dynamic flexibility. Nonetheless, TS can help us down the road if and when we get into multiple platoon ops.

                        I loved having Al in my Command squad (see above) -- it completely changed the game for both of us and made for much more effective tactic decisions.

                        I think we could still make intel scouts and Command squads work within the current platoon structure so long as Command is not overwhelmed with too many overlapping incoming comms.

                        Al, we can use the Command squad-within-squad concept if we are in the same vehicle (or two nearby vehicles) and using proximity.

                        Rage, interesting ideas in need of testing.


                        • #13
                          Re: The art of war.......

                          The comms shouldn't be a problem as far as chatter. But when you hear comms from your Stealth team they will be vital to the platoon. You will be getting a heads up of whatever large groups are heading your way and much more. The stealth group will lead the platoon so to speak. Does the PL have final? Yes but all he has to worry about is what to do in the immediate area. AA or AT within the squads or air/tank from the intel will be easier to call up.

                          The Stealth group will have the next area always prepped for incoming friendlies and SM's. There is so much more you can do with this but I think we should start using this ingame ASAP :)

                          FUN FUN




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