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TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

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  • TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

    Discussion of Armor at TG in PS2:


    Introduction: Recently Knifewise posted a great idea for armor as artillery. I know in TG our main strength is infantry right now, but I think there is a niche for combined arms infantry+armor just like infantry+air. (See post 24 on the CAS thread: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/planets...support-2.html) While I will always be, at heart, a liberator pilot, I also have an unhealthy love of artillery (as anyone who has played ArmA with me knows.

    I personally do not care if TG starts doing armor or not. There is potential there battlefield success, but I did not start this to be an advocate, I started it because I wanted the idea to get a fair hearing from the community. I feel this post outlines a good framework for the sort of discussion we should have so that our armor platoon (if we have one) will be organized and thought out, as opposed to ad hoc, individualized, and undisciplined.
    As such, I am starting this up to do several things. I have listed out the discussion topics and tried to break them up in a useful manner.

    Please try to be specific in which concern you are addressing, and if possible address multiple topics. There are so many sub-points within this discussion that could be raised here it will be easy to let the conversation narrow into one of them and exclude the rest, or become overly vague and general. Avoiding either trap will lead to a better discussion.


    This post seeks to raise awareness and discussion of armor’s possibilities (including use as a mobile strike force, and as medium to long range fire support) and discuss several topics:

    DISCUSSION TOPICS

    1.) TOPIC A: Gauge the level of support for use of armor among players,
    ---ESPECIALLY among regular platoon leaders. (Without their support and interest, this concept will not happen. Therefore it is appropriate to gauge the level of interest among leaders first, if there is none, then this does not go further than this forum.)
    ---Gauge current expterise: Does anyone have enough knowledge to teach this sort of thing, or a willingness to be the point man on researching this area?

    2.) TOPIC B: Discuss how to be an effective armor group: This has four major sub points for me:
    1 tank group formations (Line, wedge, coil, herringbone, staggered column,)
    2 and their use in squad/platoon sized combat maneuvers (bounding over watch for example, fire and movement during retreat,)
    3 other micro level tips and tricks useful by individual tanks (keep front to enemy, proper use of defilade, etc.) For reference, see the fine post a few months ago by Mach10. http://www.tacticalgamer.com/planets...re-drills.html
    4. Armor group composition (Would it be better to have mainly Main battle tanks or lightning’s? How many skygaurds or sundys we need? Etc.) This topic can reference real life armor tactics insofar as they are useful to PS2. [Note: Real tank drivers have never heard the term tactical blob, and I don’t think our tankers should either!]

    3.) TOPIC C: Discuss how armor should be coordinated with infantry or air. (Behind infantry raining shells on the enemy? Beneath air cleaning out AA turrets? Punching a quick opening for sunderers to deploy and establish a toe hold? In the same platoon or seperate platoon?)


    4.) TOPIC D: (Related to topic A) Gauge the level of cert investment needed, investment present, and willingness to become invested:
    How many certs must a person spend to make an effective tank?
    How many people we have currently in armor with certs invested?
    How many of us not currently invested are willing to dump 1000 certs into a tank for a TG tank platoon if this discussion yields a strong interest? Armor, like air, is not cheap in terms of certs. We need to think in the present, and the long term; are we willing to pay what it will take to do this? (do we have a critical mass of people out there with a geared enough tanks or willingness to spend the certs to get such tanks?)
    Finally, is it worth the opportunity cost of other certifications?


    Closing

    I am going to repeat this request for specific, detailed responses as a closing note:
    -- Please try to be specific in which concern you are addressing (USE MY topics A/B/C/D and be clear as to which part of each you are addressing) and if possible address multiple topics. However, if you have thoughts/knowledge on only one topic, feel free to post only on that one.
    --There are so many sub-points within this discussion that could be raised here it will be easy to let the conversation narrow into one of them and exclude the rest (so if the first four replies to this are on topic C, feel free to step in on Topic D, or A, we don't want to discuss only one of these).
    --It would be easy to become overly vague and generalized in this discussion. Please be a specific and clear as possible.
    Avoiding these traps through specific and practical discussion addressing each point separately will lead to a better discussion.


    Thank you for your time. Again, I do not care if the general feeling is yes or no on armor. I care that we judge the idea in an organized, well thought out manner, which will yield us a good basis for deciding if we should employ armor more.

    I will post my own thoughts in depth in a few days.
    Garthra
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

  • #2
    Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

    My concern in the above post was that there would be a flood of interest, so I added a request to keep responses structured and specific, HOWEVER, this was not meant to prevent people from responding at all! If you have thoughts, please share them!
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

      As a Player, SL, PL, I would love to do Tank nights if we are organized. By organized I mean we need to be really organized. Even more so than running infantry squads.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

        Even though I am not a tanker, I found some good information at the following link for those who are. It seemed to make sense to me.

        http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/c...w_about_tanks/

        In particular the OP (first several posts) as well as one of the respondents who says he played a lot of World of Tanks. Good information in there about the differences between the faction tanks, and how to engage them effectively. I suppose it could be applied to infantry engaging tanks as well.

        What I mean by that is, as NC infantry perhaps we should engage Vanguards from two sides, so they have to turn one way or the other to face us, exposing their side (or even better, rear!) less armored sections.
        "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



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        • #5
          Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

          youtube.com/watch?v=Y1WYI_Bh05Q&feature=youtu.be

          here a video of some quick armor action

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

            Here ya go (just posting ghost's video from above):



            Thanks for capping that man, nice video! I like the end. lol
            Last edited by Randy_Shughart_ClwFL; 05-04-2013, 04:05 PM.
            "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

              Also keep in mind the recent changes to tank armor. For the most part tanks now take one more rocket/shell to kill from any angle. However, AP shells ignore this new armor, and generally have the same TTK as before.

              That Reddit thread has some good stuff, particularly the bit about how directional hits work. Guess I can stop trying to shoot at the rear bustle of a Magrider when approaching from the side...

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...JjPAWin2M&NR=1

              However, I can't help but wonder why he has near-completely ignored the Lightning. It seems like a huge oversight considering that it is THE constant on the battlefield. Every faction gets it, and it can be drawn without owning a tech plant. Despite this, the Lightning is still the fastest, cheapest, most damaging and most versatile tank on the battlefield. On the open terrain of Esamir in particular, there is no tank that can beat the Lightning.

              Particularly for the NC, who have the slowest MBT on Auraxis, the Lightning is key to a good armoured force. Vanguards have excellent staying power. Naturally high armour combined with the shield make them perfect for holding the front line, keeping the enemy engaged,

              Lightnings complement the Vanguards by providing swift and deadly flanking forces, as well as superior anti-infantry firepower. While Vanguards engage from the front, Lightnings can use their speed and low profile to slip into flanking positions and slaughter tanks, infantry, and Sunderers. You'd be surprised the places a Lightning can go unnoticed, particularly with Stealth. In addition, the Lightning can chase down damaged tanks or sunderers that the Vanguard simply cannot catch. I can't count the number of high-value targets I've schwacked by following that column of smoke to the little stand of trees they thought it was safe to repair in.

              What I would LOVE to see is small wolf-packs of Lightnings deployed as complements to the main armoured force. 2-4 Lightnings, no more, with a mix of AP/HE weapons and a Skyguard if operating outside the main AA umbrella. Bonus points if all the drivers have AT mines, and can slip behind enemy lines, deploy 12 AT mines on the main route, and leave without being spotted.

              I run the Lightning almost exclusively when I play armour and let me tell you, it is a terrible beast if you can handle it, in either the infantry suppression or tank destroyer roles. Everything I've listed here are tactics that I use in the Lightning solo, to great effect. There's just times that I slip in behind an infantry column and think "I sure wish TG were here to share in this certsplosion." Then there's the times where I get an unlucky miss on a Magrider or am hammering a Sunderer that is being repaired faster than I can damage it and I think "I sure wish I had a wingman to back me up." :P
              Last edited by Strait Raider; 05-04-2013, 02:47 PM.
              Teamwork and Tactics are OP


              Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

                Strait,

                I would say what you are describing is also along the lines of "know your tank, know your enemies tank (or infantry, or sunderer), and work to maximize your advantages while minimizing your disadvantages" as stated in the reddit article.
                "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

                  My point is, the OP acts as though MBTs are the only armour on the battlefield, when nothing could be farther from the truth. MBTs are only half the picture. Less, if you start getting into combined arms aspects.

                  [s]It's some good data analysis, but it's very specific to MBTs, and at this point it's 4 months out of date. There have been several vehicle patches, GU08 included, which had a major change to armor, armor add-ons, and AP damage mechanics.[/s] Actually, he's got new data for GU08 here: http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...is-0-1.122363/

                  But it's still all paperwork, so keep that in mind when you're using it. Knowing the maths is good. Knowing how it works on the battlefield is better.

                  I think what bothers me the most is his casual dismissal of HE shells. Whatever he may say, battlefield experience shows us that HEAT simply does not have the effectiveness against infantry that he claims compared to HE. HE has 2x the maximum damage area and 2.5x the minimum damage area. On the battlefield, that results in HE averaging a much higher AI damage per shot, more than enough to compensate for its load time. When shooting at infantry behind cover using deflection, the advantage of HE becomes even more pronounced. HE can damage infantry targets that HEAT cannot even touch, and due to its greater min damage range, its suppressive effect on infantry is much greater as well.
                  Last edited by Strait Raider; 05-04-2013, 06:48 PM.
                  Teamwork and Tactics are OP


                  Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

                    I've got the video from just before ghost's video and it shows some of the key parts of running Armor I am still putting my guide together and will post it here in a couple days.

                    Everything is a system, Break it down.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

                      I agree Strait. I have level 3 Combat Chassis on mine now and there are very few slopes it won't climb. I love being where people don't think a tank will be :-)
                      Also I find my place on the battle field is usually on the flanks killing engys as they try to pull back to repair, or heavies shooting at the main body of tanks.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

                        Personally I don't like tanks, too confining for my taste, and I'll start switching squads when ordered to pull them from now on. I prefer to put a tank out of comission by a head shot to the driver during repairs and have done it a number of times. So I guess in reality I can't comment on what you've posted. But I can see where some guys do enjoy them and they should be the ones certing it up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

                          I've always held the belief that this game requires a balance of infantry, armor and air. Although infantry is the most adaptable, the killzones that armor and air provide cannot be matched. Most of our most successful ops, at least that i've been a part of, was a combination of all three. I think we constrict our tactical options when we only rely on one form of offense/defense. Infantry and armor work very well together, I use armor as a suppression element while maneuvering infantry as an assault element. Air is the wildcard, have a sundy we can't get too, call in the airstrike; 2 reavers, rocketing and following up with guns, can kill it in one pass (maybe 3,) even if you don't survive, (hopefully you will,) it can give ground elements a chance to advance. Anyway, my point is, we are always stronger with a balanced force.
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Re: TG and Armor Squads: Discussion of level of interest, concepts, and tactics.

                            I have nothing at all against armour.

                            As an SL an PL, I find that, very generally speaking, it does indeed require much more discipline and training to run a effective armour unit. I myself avoid commanding a armour squad as I am not fully sufficiently trained in their uses, strengths, and weaknesses. BigGaayAl has demonstrated particular skill in whipping squad members into cohesive armour units, but it takes much work and an initial bit of on-the-spot training.

                            Having said that, I have observed a marked increase in the disciplined use of armour within TG platoons. This is most clearly manifested when amour is used to provide suppressing fire on a target at a considerable distance.

                            It may not be the most enjoyable way to play with your tankr but the combination of adequate distance, cohesiveness, and a carefully managed line of tanks is every platoon leader's dream team.

                            Too often what happens is a armour squad is formed, advances, and shortly thereafter the PL receives word of their total decimation. This happens twice in a row and that is the end of your armour squad.

                            Accepting full responsibility as PL, I recognize that this is usually due to my own command error of not providing more explicit instructions to an armour unit.

                            Losses are inevitable, but we must work toward slowing down the rate of losses among armour units.
                            sigpic

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