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  • MAX Crash?

    I'm admittedly new to this game, yet at the same time if there are certain PL's then at a Bio-Lab I can predict without much trouble that we'll be doing a MAX crash. Why be so predictable? And whereas I'm sure it worked at some point, MAX crashes are no long the 'easy' way to take a Bio-Lab anymore. I have been in many MAX crashes in the past 2 months and the larger percentage fall into the 'failed' category.

    Let me point out why they fail...........

    1) Any enemy that is in the base or spawns in to protect their asset can pull a MAX. As an example.......I pull a MAX and have an engy on me, if I fall then the engy can pull one and I'll engy for them.
    2) Respawn.......we have to go back to the sundy or an outpost to respawn, they don't. It's really a numbers game of speed. If we had 10 people guarding a Bio-lab and spawn instantly and they had 30 but had to walk for 2 minutes to get back in the fight then we could easily hold them off.
    3) Fire Team discipline.........with the ability to shoot out of your spawn, it easy to keep an engy on you and a medic on them (not that they would need one). If you move out of your spawn then your distance is short as far as movement so the engy/medic team is in less danger of being killed. We on the other hand usually can't find an engy or medic when we're fighting.

    So what's the answer?

    1) To do a MAX crash you have to assume the enemy is going to pull MAXs to protect their asset (which is not ALWAYS a given assumption).
    2) We give too much priority to the points, the priority in a Max crash SHOULD be to the spawn room for the MAXs...........only infantry can take a point anyway, if their MAXs can't get out of the spawn room then you have effectively shut them down.
    3) Fire Team Discipline..........50% MAXs, 25% engys, 25% medic is a sure formula to death and has been seen way too many times. You can't cover 2 MAXs as an engy, so your basically saying...ok you as a MAX are gonna be sacrificed, which I believe is against the primer since in a real war you would never do that with one of your most powerful assets. Fire Teams should be 1 MAX, 1 engy, 1 medic the roles need to be determined before you ever engage the enemy.
    4) Always but Always flip the outpost first.......preferably all at the same time.

    Minimum requirements:
    For Platoon Ops: 4 Squads (8 fire teams = 2 squads)
    MAX: twin Hacksaws or twin Ravens, Ageis shield - Hacksaws kills infantry, Ravens kills everything, Ageis shield protect you and the team from fire while being healed..........get people that enjoy playing the MAX role and not just 50% of everyone.........which never turns out to be 50% but more like 75%
    Engy: Fully certed repair tool..........get the ones that enjoy being engy
    Medics: Restore grenades, fully certed health tool.............get the ones that enjoy being medics

    2 squad ops (4 fire teams = 1 squad)

    If you have less than 2 squads then you need to be on during off hours or never try to take the Bio-Lab

    Assign them a location on the spawn room and call them Fire Team 1, Fire Team 2, etc........ The locations should be such that the engy's and medics are in minimum danger of being killed. That gives you 8 fire teams to cover the spawn room and leaves the other 2 squads to cap the points and SCU. The MAX coverage on the spawn room gives you coverage on points A, B, SCU AND the transporter from below......... once capped the other 2 squads cover the transporters from the outpost in case they have been re-flipped. Once the base is captured then use the outpost transporters to flip back the outpost that have been flipped to hold the base.

    I understand that this plan calls for a level of dedication and discipline that I have seen in only a few in TG but to be a truly effective force you need to get the 2 MAX squads made of those people. I heard once the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. At least I know I'm not insane because I can usually predict the results.

  • #2
    Re: MAX Crash?

    Hey I am willing to change my personal Max Crash strategy. Next time we assault a Bio Lab, we will try 1/3 each Maxes, Engies, and Medics. I will also instruct everyone to form up onto 3 man teams (one each Max, Engi, and Medic). Stick together with your team, fall back or hold position (with Aegis shield up, if you have it) if one of the squishies behind you go down. If you see another fireteam's Medic go down, help him up (otherwise, that fireteam is finished). I think the biggest improvement here is more the idea of everyone getting together with 2 buddies and forming a bunch of 3 man fireteams, moreso than changing the ratios. But sound idea, I like it. Far too many times I have seen Max crashes just fall apart due to lack of teamwork, or the front Maxes advancing too quickly, or their squishies getting killed behind them, etc. Remember squishies also say something in prox if you go down so your Max knows that and can stop advancing for a moment.

    You also make a very good point about camping the spawn. The satellites I usually do make a point of taking before we go into the main.

    Another thing I do think we need to start doing though is forming up our Max crash at the warpgate. Pull your Maxes, etc. and get into the Gals, that way we can crash the satellites, and then go straight into the Bio Lab quickly before the enemy even sees what is going on. Actually, it depends on what the fight outside is like. If there is a lot of armor and enemies outside still, then form up as regular infantry with a lot of heavies, etc. and secure the grounds and the satellites. Then switch to Maxes and crash. But if the Bio Lab is lightly or not defended, then form up the Max crash at warpgate.

    It is also important to note that it takes time to sort out who is going to be Max, Engi, and Medic, and who is going to form up with who into fireteams. This is something we need to get faster at doing as squad members, but also something the PL needs to be aware of as well as far as allowing time to form up. It depends of course who is in the platoon at the time and how smoothly it is running (did we just start or have we been battling together for an hour or two already). Maybe have everybody stand together in the spawn room or at the warpgate in little groups of 3 until everyone is in a fireteam. A lot of times some people are not paying attention. Preference goes to being with guys in your own squad of course but if you can't buddy up with 2 in your squad then buddy up with someone from another squad. Odd men out who can't quickly get themselves into a fireteam tag along at the rear of the group as replacements or additional support.

    When you die, HOLD YOUR SPAWN. Only after waiting a while, and you are sure no friendly Medics can get to you, THEN respawn. Also I think fireteams should respawn together. If you cant pull a Max, rotate and let someone else pull a Max. Or, pull a HA. Or switch to 2 HAs + Medic. My thought is that there will still be enough Engies up from other fireteams to still drop ammo.
    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



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    • #3
      Re: MAX Crash?

      My theory is also the same when I lead people into a Biolab.

      I always reiterate...

      1: Stay on the satilite side of the transport tube until told to go through. (Suprise is of the essence!!!)If some of the Maxs go through before everyone else, the suprise is gone and you are met on the other side by a wall of their Maxs.

      2: Don't worry about points until we have the enemy contained . (In the old days that meant getting the sheild gens down and such.)

      3: Only after containing the enemy do you take the points and wait for cap.
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      • #4
        Re: MAX Crash?

        Success is 90% planning and organizing and 10% implementation. Know your fire team, don't break off from your fire team, talk to each other. In spec ops (if not black ops) the first and foremost rules is use excessive force, be loud, be domineering, be excessive. Even if there is nothing in the spawn base 8 fire teams should put so much fire on it that if someone were to spawn in they would never venture out. Own the base. On the transporters there should be 2 people on each side so if someone comes through they are cut down instantly, period no discussion. Surprise is never an issue because unless they are standing outside the transporter spawn room they don't know your there unless they have a scout radar set up in the bottom. If they are a large force then move as a MAX wall with shields up cutting them down until you can split off to your assignments. Train, train, train....discipline discipline, discipline.......implement. Owning a Bio-lab will be a cake-walk as well as the respect of every outfit on the server. Be mindful.......they will start mining their transporter spawn rooms and putting scout radars in the bottom.........learn to spot them and eliminate them, I know this because it's what I would do.

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        • #5
          Re: MAX Crash?

          I like the idea of keeping constant fire on the spawn, for exactly the reasons RAGE mentions. As an added bonus, the Engis will be getting lots of points from dropping ammo. lol

          I will also make a point of keeping my eye on all the transporters, as soon as one turns back purple from blue (or even starts turning white for that matter), redirect a couple Max fireteams (or a whole squad, if available) to camp it, while we make plans to re-secure the satellite.

          To be perfectly honest with you, I dislike Bio Lab fights and usually avoid them. Just big, dumb shooting fests from all directions, so many bullets flying in there you get killed and don't even know where it came from. But sometimes strategy on the Continental level dictates that we take a Bio Lab. And, actually, if we get better at doing Bio Lab assaults (and go in with the proper numbers and timing, of course) maybe they will not be so bad. In fact, I am actually looking forward to the next Bio Lab fight now, so I can try these new changes. :)

          I agree with what you re saying RAGE about the 90% planning, training, etc. If I had a squad or platoon full of guys as dedicated as yourself, it would be easy. But people play this game in widely varying amounts and for different reasons. We have a lot of newer players in our Outfit as well as a lot of puggers in our platoons at times. Please help us with training and educating them as much as you can by continuing to run squads, get them organized, and lead by example. In time, we will have more guys that know what they are doing and we will dominate. It takes time, training, and practice as you say to get to that point, but when we do it will be glorious and worth all the effort!
          "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



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          • #6
            Re: MAX Crash?

            I can't do that Randy............I can take people and train them but they have to have the desire first. I can't put that desire in them. Without that desire to be the best you have nothing to work with. E-Male I'm sure at least agree with the point that the students in school (or most of them) have a goal in mind or they wouldn't be there. Here the school is PS2, but dropping out is easy and the only desire you have to have is to play for the sake of playing. I need people to share a vision............I can lay out the vision and I can tell them the end results and even lead them there, but I can't go from A to Z by myself.

            And unfortunately I'm getting so frustrated with the lack of commitment from TG regulars that I'm starting to look for another outfit or starting my own. Maybe one day I'll be the Buzzcut of NS..........I hope not and certainly don't look forward to that day. But I have to respect him for getting results, results that he wouldn't be getting if his outfit didn't have the desire.

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            • #7
              Re: MAX Crash?

              Originally posted by Rageq3a View Post
              ...snip...

              And unfortunately I'm getting so frustrated with the lack of commitment from TG regulars that I'm starting to look for another outfit or starting my own. Maybe one day I'll be the Buzzcut of NS..........I hope not and certainly don't look forward to that day. But I have to respect him for getting results, results that he wouldn't be getting if his outfit didn't have the desire.
              This comment has me a bit worried. If you are having an issue with fellow Outfit members, the Outfit itself, or the direction of the Outfit, please start a thread in the COA so that we can look into the problem.

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              • #8
                Re: MAX Crash?

                Originally posted by Rageq3a View Post
                And unfortunately I'm getting so frustrated with the lack of commitment from TG regulars that I'm starting to look for another outfit or starting my own. Maybe one day I'll be the Buzzcut of NS..........I hope not and certainly don't look forward to that day. But I have to respect him for getting results, results that he wouldn't be getting if his outfit didn't have the desire.

                This is odd, as TG does certainly get results. Randy does amazing things with the team and gets results.

                Rage, I have read a number of your attempts to get people to rally to your vision of a tactical team or training event and have seen it met with silence. Blaming this on a lack of commitment, or seeing it as a sign of a lack of commitment, is to misinterpret the state TG.

                How exactly are you measuring the "lack of commitment" that you see here at TG?

                Commitment to what, exactly?

                If people are not following your vision, then the problem may lie with your vision (or your expression of it).

                You also must recognize that you are new among us. Who is this Rage? Why would I devote valuable game time to following his vision? Why would I change the way I play for this new member? What does he offer that I do not already have?

                I would encourage you to hold on to your vision, remain with us at TG, and continue to express your vision and see if you get any to "group up" with you are commit time to your plans. But first be a follower for a while. You are playing with people who have been playing together for years. You are playing within an environment that is guided by some of the most dedicated, professional community leaders, NCOs, Officers, and Admins (dedicated not just to excellence, but to diversity, to all levels of play, to an inclusive family-friendly environment).

                Respect the team. Claiming that TG lacks commitment to excellence (getting results), teamwork, or training is to misread the environment you are in and misunderstand the people you seek to train and lead.

                You are right, you cannot go from A to Z by yourself.

                You need to be part of the team.

                Be part of our team.

                E-Male
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                • #9
                  Re: MAX Crash?

                  Hey Rage. Sorry to hear your thinking of leaving, i've run with you for awhile and you're a good soldier. I would urge you to not act hastily. E-Male is quite correct, as change takes time and developing a following takes even longer. I would also point out that TG has grown quite quickly the last few months and I feel we're still having issues getting everyone on the same page. Therefore, I feel it would be prudent to wait until we develop unit cohesion, which takes time. We have good leadership and with E-male and Randy and the others leading the charge to train up the "cherries" (jump school reference,) we stand to have a chance to be a real "standout" unit. I feel you could be a great asset to the unit, and you have potential to be a great SL/PL.

                  I do understand where youre coming from however. As an 8 year RL military vet (4 years 3rd INF Div), the response, feedback and force of action displayed by our platoons is, less, than what i'm used to. I realize this is a game and RL experience doesn't necessarily translate, but when I move and give an order I expect it to be heard and reacted to immediately. This usually doesn't happen and I get VERY frustrated, I've stopped Sling because its really not fun for me, it makes the game work. However I realize that we run open platoons, with guys who run the gamut from newbies to people who don't like the discipline we like to exhibit. As we grow these issues will iron out, eventually I feel we can get to the point where we run private, outfit only platoons where we can really show off the strengths of running things the way TG does.

                  My point is this, there are growing pains with any new, growing outfit, you can always take the easy way out and leave, however, the real joy of getting in on the "ground" floor as it were is the fact that we have a real influence on how the unit grows. Don't throw that away because of momentary frustrations. Anyway thats my feelings on the issue. I hope to see you on the battlefield soon Rage.
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                  • #10
                    Re: MAX Crash?

                    Yeah. Don't let momentary frustrations take away from your ability to see your changes come about.
                    Rome wasn't built in a day and these sort of operations need to be implemented in game constantly
                    to see any returns.

                    Also pull back the comments like 'respect from all outfits if we do this!' A bit pretentious I think.

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                    • #11
                      Re: MAX Crash?

                      after seeing this idea get used I think the two issues with it are the time it takes to form the platoon up and when going through the teleporter and afterwards fire teams getting separated

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                      • #12
                        Re: MAX Crash?

                        Rage I have played with TG for years and every time there is a new game the same kind of thing happens we load up with people who like our style then people get ousted as they don't fit. there will be unit cohesion in our future. I for one will fight for it.

                        I would suggest posting a time, signing on early and advertising it. We managed to run decent air squad stuff for a while that way (I couldn't make it last few times as I was out of town but I hope Kalani did.).

                        Everything is a system, Break it down.

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                        • #13
                          Re: MAX Crash?

                          Don't miss the point my friends..............every now and then you have to stir the pot to make the stew better. Nobody was stirring so I chose to......right now I'm in a good spot as I also run on the Waterson server with a different bunch of guys who take a different avenue to this game and one more to my suiting. But that doesn't mean that I will give up TG permanently but will in turn gain a different perspective. You can't know all there is about a subject by reading one book, all you actually learn is that one authors perspective on the subject. If your desire is as mine is then you can bring those different perspectives back to the TG home and make it better.

                          Knifewise I understand your point of view but I give what I get...........it's just me. Not good nor bad, it's just me. I was handed second in command tonight which I will turn down in the future because I was placed in a sewer hole and assumed I was to just deal with it..............not my style of play. I don't play second fiddle to anyone, if I have the ability to make the objective then I will defend it with my multiple lives, if someone else makes it and I know it to be wrong then I'll turn it down in the future...........same reason I got out of the service in the past. Mission planning was setting us up for missions we weren't designed or training to handle. I saw it coming and got out when the getting was good. It ended up in 2 SEAL teams dieing on a tarmac in Nicaragua.

                          We all bring something to this game, baggage if you will. Some bring egos, some bring fears, and some bring past experiences. We all hope to mitigate the bad points and attenuate the good points. But that doesn't always happen.............even if you don't plan on it.

                          I am the burr in the saddle, I am the measuring stick, I am RAGE in more ways than just a screen name, like it or lump it I could care less. But you always know where you stand with me and don't have to wonder and for that I am satisfied.

                          In tonight's action I saw a different TG....... I saw thinking out of the box, I saw doing what wasn't expected, I saw a cohesion that I haven't seen in the past two months, and I saw results.....if my prodding has done anything to encourage it then I feel vindicated in my efforts and will continue until it becomes a way of life for TG. I will make ya'll a better PS2 squad/platoon in one way or another.

                          Tell me you didn't feel a sense of satisfaction when NS coalition said we did a great job at holding the VS at wrapgate tonight....................I want that to be so common an occurrence that TG becomes the "goto" outfit when the rest of them can't do the job they call on us.

                          TG should be elite, we should train for the elite, we should deploy for the elite, and we should act the elite........because TG is the elite, ya'll just don't know it yet.

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                          • #14
                            Re: MAX Crash?

                            TG will never be the most effective outfit, and that's never been our goal. We don't aggressively recruit, we don't have the numbers of the big outfits, and yes, many of us aren't able to commit much time to it. We don't "Win at any cost", we don't use exploits, and we don't always make the smart strategic choices.

                            I get fed up sometimes too, and I moonlight with more results-oriented outfits, but I know that overall, TG caters to my needs better than most.

                            We do our best, and we have fun.


                            Back to the topic of the MAX crash, the crash is a one-time use tool which is all about violence of action. It's a siege-breaker. For 1-2 minutes of combat, it allows a force to project 1.5-2x its regular strength. It's a very powerful tool, the key is just in knowing when and how to use it.

                            The biggest problems I've seen with MAX crashes:

                            Don't crash a hopeless fight - If you're so overmatched that a MAX crash cannot change your odds - don't waste the resources and cooldown! Know your limits. If you can't even make a tiny inroad as regular infantry, MAX units won't be enough to break through. The worst choice of crash I've ever seen was when we were totally overrun by the Vanu at Ceres Farms. Infantry all over the base, surrounded by tanks and aircraft. We were camped inside the spawn building, and by all accounts should have redeployed a while ago. Then the call came down for everyone to pull MAXs. We launched just before the enemy flipped the point, and the furthest elements barely made it halfway to the point. I was embarrassed to think how pitiful it must have looked to the VS.

                            Don't make a second crash - This follows from the first point. If your first crash didn't do it, a second won't either. Firstly, you've tipped your hand with the first crash, and the enemy is still in MAX-fighting mode, with their own MAXes pulled, and plenty of rocket launchers and C4. Secondly, your second crash is never as strong as your first. In the second crash many of your MAX units, including most of your skilled MAX specialists, will be on cooldown, leaving basic or un-upgraded MAX units to carry the fight. Unfortunately, MAX units are one area where the amount of certs you have invested has a significant effect on your combat effectiveness - up to 50% damage reductions and 500-cert extended mags.

                            Know your target - Pick a generator, The SCU if you can, or a strong beachhead past a chokepoint. Don't count on even the best crash lasting more than 5 minutes. You WILL get whittled down by the enemy, you need to pick a target that you can deal with relatively quickly.

                            Violence of Action - Speed and power. A MAX crash has to be readied as quickly as possible. Every moment you are organizing is a moment that the enemy is solidifying their position. Make the orders clear and decisive, and if they aren't followed, repeat them, then start kicking. Jot down the names if you've got time and follow up later. It requires decent coordination to do it fast, which is why it can be difficult in public platoons. Once you're mobile, don't stop until you reach your objective. The slower the advance, the more time the enemy has to draw anti-MAX weapons and the more MAX units get whittled away. A slow crash has lost the fight already. If you're all killed on the way to the objective, the enemy is far too powerful, and no manner of crash could have broken them.

                            Have a follow-up force - In a worst-case scenario, you will have to be your own follow-up force, bringing up soft infantry to solidify the position you took as you lose MAX units. Ideally, you'll have a couple of dedicated infantry squads ready to follow your spearhead in. While the MAXes draw fire and plough straight to the objective, the follow-up force mops up, then moves onto the objective to secure it.
                            Teamwork and Tactics are OP


                            Strait /strāt/ (Noun) A narrow passage of water connecting two seas or two large areas of water: "the Northumberland Strait".

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                            • #15
                              Re: MAX Crash?

                              Rage, it is excellent that you have found an Outfit more to your suiting than TG. Everyone should find his or her own virtual bliss.

                              The TG is indeed filled with many different perspectives on gaming, many different approaches, all tied together by the common thread of the Primer. Continue adding your perspective to the TG mosaic.

                              I am disappointed that you will not be my second in command in the future. You spent a mere 5 or 10 minutes in that position before I was disconnected by the current bug. Keep in mind that "playing second fiddle" is what a team requires. Sometimes we lead, sometimes we follow, but we always follow orders. I'll not ask you to be a fireteam leader or XO again, but I will expect orders to be followed, as I will follow your orders when in your squad. We all must ensure that whatever baggage we might be carrying does not include an unwillingness to follow orders, regardless of what kind of sewer hole it places us in. (Did anyone else witness the TG platoon leader remove a squad leader last night after he refused to follow orders? I thought he handled it very well.)

                              As to TG being an elite outfit, I doubt that that is our community's objective. We are an inclusive outfit. Players of all levels of skill are welcome. No one is removed from the TG community for being an average player. No one is required to aspire to the title "elite". We pride ourselves on embracing mature game play and fostering community and cooperation. We make room, vis a vis in-house squads, for groups of TG supporting members that wish to specialize, or aspire to be elite in their performance and skill sets. Be careful not to confuse the function of in-house squads with the goals of the broader TG community. By it's mandate, history, and common culture, TG is not an elite outfit and never will be one.
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