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  • Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

    This is an idea I've contemplated a few times. Generally, when we have an armor squad we let them do all the AV duties and if we don't want to commit to that we get an AV infantry squad going. Also, our infantry squad usually swap to defend themselves rather than to protect our armor.

    My question is this: would there ever come a time that a mix of armor and infantry (with any of lock-ons, Phoenixes, Ravens and AV turrets) would be both worth the man power and more effective than simply adding more armor?


    My thoughts:

    One restriction on the usage of armor is the terrain, such that multiple squads have a very hard time finding good positions to shoot the enemy. This would not be as big a problem for an infantry squad.

    What I envision is a highly mobile infantry squad that works in tandem with our armor, covering their advance and/or providing additional firepower. The big advantage I see here is that it's very difficult to predict large amounts of coordinated infantry AV, as they're harder to spot until they've opened fire and, even if you do, you're not always sure what their set up is. Enemy armor turning a corner and seeing 2 squads of NC armor are going to be much more careful than if they see 1 squad.

    Additional armor doesn't necessarily increase your defensive capabilities, as you only really need 1 repair Sundy and a few Vanguards to soak the damage. Therefore, investing in surprise burst damage from infantry might be better.


    Anyone think this sort of thing could be worthwhile?



    |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

  • #2
    Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

    Or mechanized infantry, where said infantry ride along in the armor squad's repair / ammo sundies, and disembark and engage when needed. We (I remember Al / Emale in particular) used to do this, where the armor squad would also provide transport and guard the Sundie(s). It was a lot of fun, we should do it again some time.
    "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



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    • #3
      Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

      I actually been field testing my beefed up anti-infantry Vanguard alot too with combined arms in mind. My intent is to go with infantry to places other vanguards fear, which is point blank infront of the enemy infantry. The idea is to tank attention away from the allied infantry so they can do their work to greater affect.

      Anyway I like the idea but things are different then they were when emale was around. Due to lattice and some other force flexibility changes that only benefit infantry, armor cannot keep up with infantry which are usually playing wack'a'mole across a continent(s) plugging holes or exploiting them. Either way armor cant constantly redeploy which ends up breaking their cohesion with their infantry.

      Ran into this just tonight. Fighting a hard battle between indar excavation and cora meds and the fight seemed a steep up hill battle and the PL lost interest and ordered a redeploy to scarred mesa skydock in the opposite end of the map. Bravo squad was predesignated as armor when the platoon started and was at about 40% armor capable so the infantry leftover simply redeployed as planned but the armor had to start the long trek across the map. The PL was in complete shock to hear this as the PL expected the armor to be ditched so they can have full manpower at the skydock. This as you may imagine caused alot of friction as many in bravo were there to do armor, even left alpha to go to bravo for this reason in the beginning. I had stepped away to put my son to bed and when I return it seemed half of bravo had left squad, to me I presumed it was due to the involuntary role change bravo was ordered to do because Alpha was still at full strength.

      I have off topic opinions about what happened here but the on topic point I want to make is that in order for this type of combined arms to work in the game as it is, the leaders need to be prepared to work at the speed of armor or it just simply wont work. The only other way I see this having any play otherwise is to use throw away armor and utilizing it sporadically when resources/cooldown permit. I think this way has steeper consequences in both resources and morale of those that like their armor. However this is just my opinion. Now SOE has said they intend to introduce a way to transport armor across the battlefield much like Gals can transport infantry. If this happens then perhaps this tactic will become more reasonable to all parties.

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      • #4
        Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

        This is something we did way back when we did that warpgate blockade, with the armour/AA squad being supplimented by an infantry AV squad. It's a potent combo.



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        • #5
          Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

          I always thought about running an armor squad, and bravo can be a airborne av infantry squad. I've seen TR and VS load up a av squad and drop them somewhere and be crazy effective. I've had my whole squad wiped once.



          I hate doing armor in a platoon to be honest, Its boring and we rarely see combat. Sometimes i turn my TV on and just wait for orders. Armor like air should not be apart of the platoon but should be there if the platoon needs help. i've logged in almost 200 hours in my vanguard and about 65% of that was sitting around in a platoon doing nothing. I'm not trying to discourage people from doing armor in a platoon, its just a waste in my opinion.

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          • #6
            Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

            Ghost,
            As a guy who runs armor a lot, do you have suggestions for how to make armor less boring? Coordinating them must better with infantry?
            I do not see how your airborne infantry will help the problem. Won't you still have periods of boredom while infantry are inside bases, or slowly moving out?
            I am interested in hearing your thoughts for solutions, as you know armor as well as anyone. I would like to know how to make the game / TG squads fun for a variety of people, including tankers. I am sure other players and PLs would like to hear as well, no one wants their squad members bored.



            Vlad,
            Yes I can see how this would be frustrating. In PS1 there was a "lodestar" aircraft which was basically a galaxy for vehicles. Hope they get it introduced in PS2.
            You raise a good point about the differing speed. The same problem can come up with air assets (they move around faster than other assets, experience terrain differently, and therefore must fight the battle differently, and exposed to different threats). Happily, I think the armor/infantry divide is not so great. Infantry can move on the ground in a sundy, thus synchronizing with armor. The "redeploy" jump across the continent is where the infantry and ground armor must separate. But, aside from that, I think there is a real chance to work together.
            Last edited by Garthra; 04-17-2014, 02:20 AM. Reason: added details
            The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

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            • #7
              Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

              We at TG are supposed to use real world tactics as much as possible. Why not have a friday night here and there that is ground ops only. No air transport authorized? We could call it (FNGP) Friday Night Ground Pounding!

              I for one am sick of having to jump /redeploy all over the map to find fights/defend where needed. How about we pick a starting point and we get where we are going by ground or not at all one night? It will give us some variety since most nights we are flying or redeploying like mad. This takes away our sense of ownership of bases and ground we have taken. We don't see anything between bases anymore! The introduction of Galaxy spawning is the cause of most of these issues. I miss the old slow Sundy spawn only days.

              PS:Just because the NCFU wants us to jump to a bases across the map does not mean we are obligated to do so.

              Todd
              sigpic

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              • #8
                Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                This∆∆. I definitely would be interested in trying this.


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                • #9
                  Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                  I dont know why we do not do this more. Two squads of infantry, squad of armor/sundies and then a squad of air. I think that would be a pretty potent fighting mixture. The PL could then get on NCO wide coms and ask where the help is needed, we saddle up and ride on out to save the day TG style!!






                  "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

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                  • #10
                    Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                    Regarding the armor operators being bored while waiting for their infantry to cap, why not leapfrog forward and start laying siege to the next lattice link or provide interdiction services forward of the capping base while you wait for your infantry component to finish the cap and catch up?

                    To echo others, we are on our own timer, have our own priorities with regard to game play, and are not at all beholden to NCC, NCFU or any other outside entity that seeks assistance. As much as this is a game about coordination on a continental/global scale, our needs/priorities always come first.




                    * *

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                    • #11
                      Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                      Another point on this is ease of leadership and retention.

                      If you're focused on smaller objectives, moving at your own pace etc and not warping all over the place you make the job for your leadership easier to some degree. They are able to focus on what you're doing as opposed to where you're going. That allows a greater emphasis on quality of play, tactics and having fun our way.

                      If you are continent hopping or redeploying a lot you're creating a big logistical overhead and tiring your leadership with basic herding. It ends up being an exercise in galactic commuting not dissimilar to organizing a school outing in a future based war zone lol. This in turn means more milling around waiting for people to regroup/arrive. They get frustrated as they get less trigger time. Eventually people start getting left behind if they can't keep up and that leads to fragmentation and people drifting off for the night.

                      Some of the best fun I had when I was playing regularly after release was when we walked or drove from one objective to another. We took objectives that were linked and rarely redeployed, just kinda stayed together and marched about. It maybe because the game was new and we were less involved in Coalitions etc but it did build camaraderie and made things easier to organize. It also allowed people to lead squads or fire teams with a clearer focus on the little things without having to worry about the wider game and what holes somebody else wanted us to plug. Nothing wrong with large scale coordination but I prefer to get my own ducks in a row first and make sure the people I am playing with are having some tactical fun above all else.


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                      • #12
                        Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                        Originally posted by Wicks View Post
                        If you're focused on smaller objectives, moving at your own pace etc and not warping all over the place you make the job for your leadership easier to some degree. They are able to focus on what you're doing as opposed to where you're going. That allows a greater emphasis on quality of play, tactics and having fun our way.
                        I would have to say that I've never had as much fun as when we are doing this style of play. After all, I feel like there is nothing "Near-simulation" about teleporting and redeploying all over the map. It might make sense in PS2 world but it (For me) breaks up the immersion, which is why I'm really starting to love armor. And at lest for me, SL-ing in this kind of Platoon is Way easier and enjoyable. I would love to see more Platoons being run this way, and I cant wait to see what TG does with this.
                        "When attacking a stronger opponent, Attack swiftly and with full force at their weakest point— take them out before the can react, or Fall back and engage in guerrilla actions,” Spartan 117.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                          While I completely agree that we should be sticking to one front as much as possible, the major problem with that is that this redeploying has become the "end game" strategy for everyone else. After we win a fight 1 of 3 things will likely happen:

                          1) The enemy redeploys entirely and you are left ghost capping the next base - until they redeploy back in overwhelming numbers.
                          2) A large portion of the enemy redeploy, some don't. You now outnumber them so much it's not challenging - again, until they redeploy back.
                          3) The enemy hangs around to defend/attack.

                          Any time we are presented with 3 we should certainly stay. However, I find facing 1 and 2 repeatedly just as unfun as redeploying over and over. I think we should be finding the most even fight possible, whether we end up staying or redeploying.



                          |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                            When I run armor I lead it in a anti-tank role, I hunt enemy armor ( a harasser squad on steroids) . I enter a battle with the sole purpose of destroying all enemy armor. When my objective is complete I leave and assist somewhere else. Lets be honest TG has the the most effective armor squads in any outfit in the NC (not including zergs) because will use them to turn the tide of a battle instead of just pulling and charge the enemy. But when you use it in a platoon it really limits the squads ability to perform since we are always tasked with a defensive role. Which most of the times means staying back and protect the sundies form 1 or 2 enemy tanks.

                            I have suggested before to allow armor to have more freedom in the battle. Let them (if the SL is up for it) patrol the area for enemy armor. That way at least they are doing something instead of sitting at the squad way point until the base is capped. They are still tasked with escorting the infantry around but should move to a forward position once the sundies are deployed. I've also suggested that the armor should lead the way in any battle.


                            I would really like to SL an armor squad during FNF but by the time I get home from work the server is not as active anymore. Maybe Ill call in sick one day =p

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                            • #15
                              Re: Coordinated Armor and Infantry AV Team

                              Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                              This is something we did way back when we did that warpgate blockade, with the armour/AA squad being supplimented by an infantry AV squad. It's a potent combo.
                              Oh yeah, that's true.

                              The reasons we did it then were to be less obvious and to worry less about attrition and resources. We were focused on survivability which meant bringing enough armor to make the enemy pause, rather than rush us, but no more than that. Plus enough firepower to win the fight.

                              As long as we're not fighting an entire tank armada/zerg (which won't stop for a few tanks) or trying to shell enemy infantry positions to kingdom come, I think this could be used regularly as an alternative to matching the enemy's 1 to 2 squads of armor. Making the armor squad AA heavy, since Skyguards are the best AA right now, would be an added benefit.

                              This really seems like something we could incorporate into our general play.

                              Originally posted by Randy_Shughart_ClwFL View Post
                              Or mechanized infantry, where said infantry ride along in the armor squad's repair / ammo sundies, and disembark and engage when needed. We (I remember Al / Emale in particular) used to do this, where the armor squad would also provide transport and guard the Sundie(s). It was a lot of fun, we should do it again some time.
                              If you mean dedicated transport I found that problematic given a Sundy can't hold an extra driver, or driver + gunners, at the same time as a squad.


                              My point was to shift the focus from infantry doing their thing (capping bases) and only swapping to AV when under fire, to following the armor around specifically to help them eliminate enemy armor. They have a symbiotic relationship, the AV firepower does much of the killing, and the armor grabs attention and soaks most of the damage.

                              I'm sure that won't be needed all the time but that's why I was asking what are the times this change in priorities would be worth it. See my reply to Ghost.


                              Also, keeping the infantry near the armor would present some pros and cons.

                              Pros:

                              Easier to coordinate focus fire with armor.
                              Can use our own armor as cover no matter the terrain.


                              Cons:

                              Gaining LOS could be tricky at times. Hills could be better.
                              Keeping the squad cohesive when you're running in-between armor could be difficult.


                              Originally posted by ghostshooter101 View Post
                              I always thought about running an armor squad, and bravo can be a airborne av infantry squad. I've seen TR and VS load up a av squad and drop them somewhere and be crazy effective. I've had my whole squad wiped once.



                              I hate doing armor in a platoon to be honest, Its boring and we rarely see combat. Sometimes i turn my TV on and just wait for orders. Armor like air should not be apart of the platoon but should be there if the platoon needs help. i've logged in almost 200 hours in my vanguard and about 65% of that was sitting around in a platoon doing nothing. I'm not trying to discourage people from doing armor in a platoon, its just a waste in my opinion.
                              Yeah, assuming the AV squad wants to be able to set up in a different location to our armor, it would need to have its own Gal or Sundy.


                              Mmm, I can see the argument for separating the armor into its own platoon. If the infantry don't require CAS or artillery then the role of our assets should be hunting enemy assets or helping in a territory that needs us. Sitting around is a waste and not fun.

                              Our air platoon (Star) has suggested that we treat them as global resources that can provide on-call CAS to any territory, for any friendlies, in order to maximize time spent and hit the most appropriate targets. Obviously, the TG ground platoon would have some bias in favor of them, if they need air support we'd be there. I suppose Air should be discussed elsewhere.

                              Could / should we treat a separate armor platoon this way?

                              The problem I see is that armor won't be able to move around as fast and might not be able to return in time to help the infantry platoon. Should they be restricted to adjacent territories only? Or, as Drona said, move to the next base on the lattice?
                              Last edited by MrJengles; 04-17-2014, 11:38 AM.



                              |TG-Irr| MrJengles - You know you want to say it out loud.

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