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Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

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  • Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    So, i'd just like to do a bit of "shared tactics" here and give to you guys what I've learned from UxB.

    I've heard it time and time again from different sources and outfits, " TG is THEE place for tactics on the NC" and the counter argument being " I agree but, they are really slow".

    What TG does well:
    -Well executed, thought out and dynamic tactics on a scale unparalleled by any outfit on this server
    -Powerful force multiplier and capable of, at times, bringing a whole platoon of members to an objective with fantastic precision.
    -Probably the only outfit on the server that uses in-depth tactics in it's asset based squad. (I've rolled with N, DA, NNG, QRY, you name it. They vastly rely on throwing numbers and specific player skill at things instead of proper tactics)

    What TG doesn't do well:
    1.)Fireteams. I rarely ever see this happen.
    2.)squad specific orders. Most of the time squads will be forced into the same jobs as a result of huge enemy numbers.
    3.)Defense and retreat of infantry. (vastly gotten better at defense in recent months with thing such as revives)
    4.)rapid deployment.

    For me, UxB has been the exact opposite of TG. They excel in what TG doesn't do well and fallng apart with what TG excels in.
    So I'm going to address each of these "flaws" that with good an easy methods that will (hopefully) become just as simple and inherent as our in-game comms system.

    1.)
    Why use fireteams?:
    well 2 is obviously much better than 1 in a fight (and 4 eyes are better than 2). If 2 players find 1 enemy the odds of them both dying or getting jumped are significantly lower.

    What I've seen works well:
    One person takes a knee in the spawn room (or safe area of choice) and waits for other player to join them. This person is now a fireteam leader. They don't need to issue any orders, they just need to move around as the other members of the fireteam follow. Every player should always make sure that they have at least 1 other player near by them (doubling the survivability of the squad).
    If the squad leader want everyone pushing the same objective in the same way, they would simply call for the squad to group up by looking for the squad star on their map (SL becomes 12 man fireteam leader).

    It's difficult to introduce into the head of players and requires some discipline but, with time, players will notice that for some reason they are less successful when they don't group up (*gasp!*). A very powerful motivator

    2.)
    Why use squad specific orders?:
    Why have squad leaders if you aren't granted freedom to make some tactical choices? The grand strategic picture should always be handled by PL but the power of in-depth orders aside from "Alpha and Bravo attack" is incredible.

    What I've seen work well:
    Imagine this scenario; The platoon needs to push up into a tower to take A point but, as we know, those stairs can be a real pain to advance. What can be done here is, The PL can issue specific tasks for each squad while assaulting OR squad can call their task for common types of engagements

    Ex: PL: "Alpha and Bravo push the north staircase while Charlie and Delta push the south." "Move on my mark, in 15-30 seconds"
    Alpha SL: "Alpha is assaulting and in position"
    Bravo SL: "That means Bravo is suppressing their advance, we're also in position"
    Charlie SL: "Charile is best equipped for suppression. We'll be in position in 5 seconds"
    Delta SL: "Copy Delta will be ready to assault when Charlie arrives"

    3.)
    Why defend and retreat?:
    Sometimes we have to except that TG just doesn't have the numbers to push or hold an objective. Luckily there is this wonderful thing in the game called "hoards and hoards of blueberries". One squad can provide the serious advantage (heals, ammo, a safe place not to get shot from, suppression, etc.) for blue berries to advance. The last thing you want in a large fight is for one of the only organized groups to become wiped
    It also does wonders on squad moral as they aren't dying every 10 seconds.

    What I've seen work well:
    If all fire team rules are followed well, the squad is appropriately kitted and all members are following orders, there is little you can not achieve.
    Attacking a difficult base like the crown or the bastion can be a really pain on a squad when numbers are high. But if one squad of players decides that they're objective isn't to get to point but to hold a building half way to the point that means every blueberry behind this squad will be able to AT LEAST make it that far.

    And in regards to retreats. It's the last thing that enemy players expect. Most enemies expect to breach a room and wipe a whole squad and be done. Retreats can cause very rapid "role-shifts" that turn attackers into highly uncoordinated defenders. It also causes the less coordinated enemies to start "trailing" this means they start breaking into lines of 1 by 1.

    4.)
    Why do we need rapid deployment?: It's not my preferred method of play but, Planetside is game of "getting to the fight fast" and the advantages of being faster than the enemy are usually far more important than 100% perfect squad load outs. (especially with the new galaxy and sundy updates)

    What I've seen works well:
    Get galaxies and sundies moving torward objectives BEFORE the squad is asked to redeploy. Also, only ask for players to swap around kits when there is a significant lack of a particular kit in the squad. This way there is less waiting for players to opt and grab kits, as the galaxies wait for every last player to climb in and sort things out.

    These are tacitics very often used by smaller "experienced player" outfits such as; DA, AC, UxB, SVO,etc.
    They take they're comparatively small numbers and optimize them for maximum effect. (I see DA and AC often fight off twice their own numbers this way)

  • RaymondScout
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    -as far as getting fire teams up and running, why not do this.
    A squad lead says something along the lines of numbers 1 through 6 you are fire team 1, numbers 7 through 12 you are fire team 2. The SL can then assign different orders to the fire teams depending on the situation.
    Example: Your squads job is to hold a building. the enemy is making an offensive push on that building. you as SL notice that number 9 though 12 has quite a few engineers, you make them a fire team and send them up on the roof to put up turrets to provide cover for blueberries. you assighn the other numbers as a second fire team and have them gaurd the entrances to the doors.

    Leave a comment:


  • Garthra
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    Good point jengles. Maybe I misunderstood the value.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrJengles
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    Regarding the buddy system:

    Put it this way, 12 people trying to self organize who moves/looks where, with player variability throwing an extra spanner in the works.

    Or 6 pairs, usually lead by those who feel more confident (either in general, or at that particular base, given a particular enemy threat they noticed on the map etc.) and move/look accordingly. Also, as Zep said, the idea is that the squad is cohesive but in addition some players are closely shadowed to the point that 2 guns will always be on the same target.

    Finally, even if we had fireteams it would be uncommon for people to be commanded individually, we'd be telling 2 people to support each other anyway so may as well cut down on comms by ordering the "guide" knowing his buddy will follow.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zepkron
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    My general idea was to find some way to make things like these to be easy to learn and well expected when you hop into a TG squad.
    It should be something that is second nature to TG members, it would be best taught through example in the field than through VR training sessions.

    Although VR training can be used to introduce the newer members to the ideas and clear up any questions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zepkron
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    Originally posted by Garthra View Post
    Summary:

    1.) Fireteams
    I typically ask all players in my squad to be very close together. This eliminates the advantage of “hey I need a friend,” which you seem to imply in your post, provided people are following orders and sticking with the squad.
    The squad, of course, would be sticking together. This "buddy system" is typically a good way of making sure that when the squad is engaged it will always be at least two members of the squad vs the enemy.

    For example: if you're assaulting a room with multiple entrances, it's a good idea to come through more then one door so the enemies can't focus fire.
    Also if you are defending a point, this ensures that there won't be a single moment were only one person is covering one door. This way nobody dies alone.

    2.) Squad Specific Orders
    I need a bit more clarity.
    Do you refer to the PL issuing orders to the SL very generally, and SLs making up detailed plans for their squads? If so, that is my practice currently when I am PL or SL. And I support it greatly! I think SLs need to realize their responsibility to create such plans.

    If instead you refer to the PL giving precise, mutually supporting orders to the SLs (Bravo cover from rooftop, alpha advance, Charlie, suppress the enemy, then follow advance…), I would be OK with that, but I prefer more SL freedom.
    What I mean by this is that the PL to SL relationship in a fight should be, in a way, like constructing a building. The PL maps out where and how he wants the fight to play out and the SL's decide exactly how they wan't to complete this task.
    I'll add to my comms example for better clairity:

    PL: "Alpha and Bravo push the north staircase while Charlie and Delta push the south." "I want one squad suppressing the stairs while the other advances" "Move on my mark, in 15-30 seconds"
    Alpha SL: "Alpha is assaulting and in position"
    Bravo SL: "That means Bravo is suppressing their advance, we're also in position"
    Charlie SL: "Charile is best equipped for suppression. We'll be in position in 5 seconds"
    Delta SL: "Copy Delta will be ready to assault when Charlie arrives"

    PL orders should not be "I want you pushing the stairs"
    This clumps the whole platoon into just one big squad

    Through this kind of "specialized job board" the SL's get operative choice and it takes off the PL's mental load.
    It's also possible that SL's can pitch ideas to the PL which can be confirmed or denied.


    (I left out the orders for the "how" because towers are so frequent it would be preferred that this was an expected tactic that most TG SL's are aware of)

    Leave a comment:


  • Ytman
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    I just wish to clarify that my mention of 'CHEESE' tactics did not mean to include ESF Beacons which should be classified under 'ILLEGAL' but my format and grammar was sloppy.

    An example of something I consider 'CHEESE' is Galaxy drops onto enemy Sunderer positions, which recently if I recall correctly, was ruled potentially against primer. I also think that some people consider Sunderer/Galaxy Squad Spawning/Generic Quick Response Redeploy 'CHEESE' but willing use at times it because of its value. Overall, I admit that lactose intolerance is not a huge impact against our group.

    Leave a comment:


  • Garthra
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    Summary:
    Really great ideas Zepkron! I think 2, 3, and 4 should be standard practice. I know they mostly are for me. I believe NEW SLs should READ THIS POST carefully.
    The fireteams I agree with in principle, but it implies that the squad is already split up, a basic premise that I think in itself denotes a failure under most circumstances. That said, in situations where the squad is divided, I think fireteams are a good idea. I can’t wait for Sony to implement them!

    1.) Fireteams
    I typically ask all players in my squad to be very close together. This eliminates the advantage of “hey I need a friend,” which you seem to imply in your post, provided people are following orders and sticking with the squad. However, I see really good utility when the squad needs to separate, or loses cohesion. People should never scatter to the point they don’t have a buddy. This will mean that some players will need to give up their personal freedom of movement and follow another player. One leads, another (or more) follow. I think fireteams should use PROXIMITY chat to coordinate. I think we can improve in this area and think it is a good point to bring up.

    2.) Squad Specific Orders
    I need a bit more clarity.
    Do you refer to the PL issuing orders to the SL very generally, and SLs making up detailed plans for their squads? If so, that is my practice currently when I am PL or SL. And I support it greatly! I think SLs need to realize their responsibility to create such plans.
    SLs should use the Platoon net to keep other squads advised of their plans, and coordinate with them in the way your example mentions. I have done this several times with Starstriker and it is REALLY fun when it works. : ) Its one of them “O yeah I love TG!” moments.

    If instead you refer to the PL giving precise, mutually supporting orders to the SLs (Bravo cover from rooftop, alpha advance, Charlie, suppress the enemy, then follow advance…), I would be OK with that, but I prefer more SL freedom.

    I like your example of squads operating in a large “fire and movement” exercise.Good tactical thought. I would like to see more of this.

    3.) DEFEND/RETREAT
    I have used the offensive “defend” strategy recently. There was a bunch of coral type cover south of Indar Excavation, and a TG squad setup behind it with armor and infantry to help cover friendly blue berry advance from south to north. It worked well. We were eventually wiped out but it took the enemy a long time and we took out many pieces of armor, while losing much less. (I think two of our tanks actually ran completely OUT of ammo well before they died.)

    At far as the retreat, I agree also. An example I have used to good effect is when taking an AMP station, start the timer on a generator or a point, and then withdraw to a nearby building. Wait for the enemy to come in and cancel the timer or retake the point, then storm them with 12 guys. They never expect the counter attack, and your squad maintains the initiative. It is quite fun. :)

    [MENTION=56259]Zepkron[/MENTION], regarding retreats and their potential utility, I agree man. On a broader level, I think this is a good idea as a harassing tactic, the redeploy button tends to diminish fights in open terrain and make enemies complacent in those zones between bases. Ripe for ambush.

    4.) Redploys into the galaxy as galaxy flies.
    I have used this strategy, having 1 guy go pull a gal, the rest of the squad keeps fighting until the gal is part way to the drop zone, then redeploy into it. fly the last third of the flight and drop. Even before the redeploy into galaxy became available, my policy is always have the gal pickup zone planed before you need it, and have be very clear so everyone understands the pickup. That is the sort of thing the SL should be thinking about the second it is clear the battle is won. Often the last minute or so is essentially an easy mop up, and the SL should have brainpower to spare.


    ---------------

    Sidetopic---
    [MENTION=37421]Ytman[/MENTION]

    I agree with almost all of your post. Especially the point about retreats deserving their own thread. And squad specific orders I agree 150%.

    Comment on Cheesy Tactics
    Originally posted by Ytman View Post
    Getting to the fight fast is important, and has always been so (how many rounds of Project Reality ended quickly because of poor starts?). The problem lies in the generic idiosyncratic biases most of us in TG have formed from our experiences in other games (such as Project Reality, ArmA, etc. etc.). One problem is the knee jerk reaction to doing something in PlanetSide2 that would otherwise be considered 'CHEESEY' or 'INEFFECTIVE' in extreme circumstances it is ruled illegal by our primer (IE ESF beacon drops). Personally anything we consider just simply 'CHEESEY' should be re-examined for potency. There is no point in fighting a boxing match with your arms tied behind your back.
    I hear your frustration, and I get your desire to move quickly and be effective. I respect your views on this matter, and I have enjoyed a lot of your posts on the forums over time.
    However, I have to disagree here. My view is that there is a point of fighting a boxing match with one hand behind your back if that is what is expected of you, if that is the standard you hold yourself to. Remember we are TG, which means we play by different rules. Its like a 1 handed pushup, you could use two hands, but would that be as awesome? (Sigh-- thinking back to when I could do a one handed pushup...) Anyway, just my thoughts, no need to derail the thread. :)
    Last edited by Garthra; 04-24-2014, 12:36 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • starstriker1
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    Excellent post, Zep.

    1) I like fireteams but they're difficult to work with without prior drilling, a very disciplined squad, and compensating for lack of in-game tools. Getting around this will require dedicated training efforts and practise time. A buddy system, though, is a very simple rule that we can easily drill into our members on game night as needed!

    2) Yes, absolutely. The PL needs to be looking at the broad picture and finding that balance between micromanaging a squad and not giving them enough information. Vague orders aren't very useful, but the SL's flexibility and initiative can't be compromised either. It's a very tough balance to find, though.

    3) I loooooove good defensive fights, and I'm also a fan of proper retreats (though I've had some difficulty getting them to work in practise). It's something I'd like to work on.

    4) Moving quickly is super critical. I disagree with YT man that any deficiency on our part is a result of us avoiding "cheesy" tactics, though. We've done this very well in the past--and even in the present--limitations and all.

    The keys are quick response to orders and squad cohesion. It shouldn't take more than a minute for a squad to recall to warpgate, pull a gal, load up and be ready to go. In ideal conditions I think you can do it in less than 30s, and if you're really on the ball (and don't care about MAXes) there's no reason with the current gal-spawning system (which I STILL despise on principle) that you can't have Galaxies pulled and already en-route to target before redeploying and have everyone spawn in the galaxy seconds before drop, getting you redeployed and ON TARGET WITH NO TRAVEL TIME in about 25 seconds.

    Again, this is something that comes down to training, discipline and cohesion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Garthra
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    Really great thoughts! I will comment more when I have time. I would +rep you if the darned website allowed me to Zep. :)

    Leave a comment:


  • bregard031
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    (It is late and I am left with half of my capacity. Sorry.)

    I think optimising the squad has a lot to do with training. Randy was doing it right when he began to pull some lessons in VR. It quickly developed a large culture, a consensus.

    This is necessary to know exactly what the leaders want in much less words. It also allows for groups to practice. When you can put a word on it, it becomes easy to execute.

    Zep :Thank you to point out these flaws, buddy!

    Leave a comment:


  • Zepkron
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    [MENTION=71438]Emrys[/MENTION] seeing as these are squad tactics, I don't see why not. It would probably work the most optimal in a 2 squad format though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Emrys
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    I wonder if it would be possible to test these ideas together on a squad level. We could have a blitzkreig squad dedicated to rapid redeployment to be the first on the scene, evaluate the battle so the next squads coming can know what to expect. We could have an early retreat squad that always pulls out early to set up a new defnsive line, set up mines, man turrets etc. The other squads could try to coordinate with one another more closely than usual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daelon Suzuka
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    I've been waiting for an excuse to post this, and you've thrown the opportunity into my lap, Zepkron. I know they were written by filthy spandex wearers, but they're made very well, they're funny, and the first one in particular is terribly relevant.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zepkron
    replied
    Re: Optimizing the squad effectiveness ( Easy fire teams, fast movement)

    [MENTION=29978]MrJengles[/MENTION]
    I agree, TG does do these things but, less often than I would like and it seems to be a hassle sometimes.

    Leave a comment:

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