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Breaching Testing and Mess About

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  • [EVENT] Breaching Testing and Mess About


    I would like to mess about with breaching ideas and practice them a bit. When I say mess about I do not mean this will be joke time. It will be focused. This Is figuring out what works, not official practice or training because we don't know yet what we should practice.

    Who is interested in helping with this?
    I do not promise action or excitement. Far from it, I promise tedious, detailed, repetition. I promise only sweaty mouse hands, and virtual tears. If anyone remembers arty training from ACE ArmA you will understand. I promise you we will do a drill 100 times without killing an enemy or earning an XP point. But at the end, we will have learned something together.

    The Plan

    I will need at least 4 people to test this. Ideally, 8 people so we can have a few TG OPFOR for each attempt. This will have to be a team effort.
    My rough plan is we take a standard building, and tell the OPFOR which door we will be coming in, so they are watching that door, simulating a hostile room. So we have to breach into enemy fire. After trying one tactic 5 or 10 times, we ask the opfor, did it work? What worked, what didn't? Then we try a different variation, again 5 or 10 times, then ask again. Then we ask, ok, was breach type 1 more effective than breach type 2? OPFOR gives us an answer. Then we try variation three, again 5 or 10 times... and so on, and so on, until we run out of time. Yes, you will spend infantry resources on grenades. The price of realistic training is high.

    We may practice first a bit in the VR, but we should move to an OPFOR testing for the majority. I am talking at least one hour for this.
    ** I will post a date in the near future after I look at my calender a bit. **

    Some questions I would like to see answered through this session:

    1.) Is movement speed on offense (entering rooms) important enough to warrant laser sights/hip fire?

    2.) Is it worth it to throw a medical grenade for AOE healing in along with the concussion grenade, to keep the point man up?

    3.) What is the mot effective set of commands to get everyone IN THAT DOOR at the same time, right after the grenade? Right now I have written a proposed SOP, but I need to test it. My theory could be wrong. The simple room breach attachment here is one idea to try, not necessarily the best.

    4.) Is it better for the first man to sprint out of the fatal funnel, then put gun down and shoot, or come in hip firing the whole way?

    I don't know when is a good time to study this, I will be busy all week and next sunday, but I would like to try this within the next month. (Yes I have already started practicing room clearing on my own. Yes I am that excited.

    I am ready to listen to thoughts on
    A.) How to best test these ideas.
    B.) If anyone KNOWS the answer to these questions already, tell me.
    C.) Times/date that would be good for you to do this session. I am assuming weekend, since most people can be on then.
    D.) Best weapons and attachments for breaching.
    E.) Do you have OPFOR we could use?
    F.) Other thoughts?
    Why am I excited about this?
    Thrilled even? Because it sounds tactical and like something few outfits would spend time to test. We are TG, we don't have mass numbers, we don't have gimmics ... we have brains and discipline. This is a chance to use them. Also, infantry has to clear rooms every day, so why not figure out how to do it better? While we are learning the best method we are practicing as we learn and building the discipline we need to execute the ideal plan, once we find it.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Garthra; 07-28-2014, 08:29 PM.
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

  • #2
    Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

    I am very interested in getting involved with this. We'd want to choose a time that doesn't conflict with friday night ops. Personally can't make Mondays, but should be able to make any other day.

    I think the AOE heal grenade isn't going to be terribly likely to pan out. The concentration of fire received when breaching will pretty much overwhelm it entirely, it might not even save a single bullet (if someone is properly guarding a door, I don't expect anyone they explicitly target to last half a second under accurate fire). A res grenade, on the other hand, to pick up anyone who dropped in the initial seconds of the breach? That could work wonders!

    A question I'd like to see answered is "how effective are flash, concussion, and smoke grenades in making a breach work? What combinations of them are most effective, and where are the diminishing returns? Is doubling up on any of these (in particular concussions, that REALLY mess people up when doubled) worth the effort?"

    I've got my own suspicions on that one... specifically, that a flash/conc combo will be terrifically debilitating and catch even people running implants to counter one or the other, and that smoke is as likely to backfire as not (but might synergize with a properly kitted breaching time with NV sights). However, this is the sort of thing that only SCIENCE can determine!

    We should try and make sure we've got some kind of video recording up. I imagine a lot of this will end up being very useful... indeed, some of it might make good source material for future training videos (and a blooper reel would be pretty entertaining).


    • #3
      Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

      just want to throw my .02 cents in. We have covered the intial breah pretty well. Now that I think about it most of the defense is usually on the second floor. How would be continue the assualt? while at the same time fighting off enemy reinforcements?

      I havent read anyone mention LA's, 2-3 LA's fly on the roof with shotguns and flash/con grenades and really wreak havok plus make the enemy have to switch their attention. I've done this serveral time, sometimes i would have enough time to drop some c4 right on the middle, or go after their medics.


      • #4
        Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

        I like the idea of finding a use for LA's and ghost's suggestion is pretty awesome.



        • #5
          Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

          I was doing that this morning when we were fighting at Ceres, it got the to point where they had like 2-3 maxes watching the stairs to the roof because I kept flying in with my mauler shotgun and c4 :p


          • #6
            Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

            Oh.. I forgot to mention that I'll be happy to attend the testing session.

            I recently quit my job, so my schedule is pretty open.

            I do not have any alts, except on the test server. I could be persuaded to create one, though.

            I've seen our adversaries use concussion grenades when breaching to great effect. 2 concs in a row really screws up your character. I haven't seen too many flash or EMP nades though. (be aware that concussion grenades explode on contact. ie. they don't bounce!)

            It seems to me that having 1 or 2 AI MAX's on point would give the breach attempt a better chance at succeeding.

            Weapons and attachments would be dependent on the size and shape of the room being breached. Although, LMG's, SMG's, and carbines would be good, all around picks. Maybe even rocket launchers?



            • #7
              Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

              Excellent idea Garthra and I back it fully. Saturday afternoons work best for me. I consider myself good at giving constructive criticisms from the OPFOR point of view. I stand ready with capable infantry, MBT's, and battle Gals from both Vanu and TR.

              I would advise that those going into this have an open mind. Everyone will has different experiences and opinions on the matter, and there is not likely a one right way. So every one should be willing/flexible enough to give the methods of others a legitimate chance.

              So I see a pattern/system growing and it seems something like this:

              1. Tuesdays be used to test however far fetched Tactical/Strategical/Operational ideas (as suggested by MatthewDaManiac for "Tactical Tuesdays"

              2. Upon perhaps nomination of ideas like that which have been experimented on "Tactical Tuesdays", These tactics be planned for a more serious and thorough discussion and testing like what Garthra is proposing above.

              3. Once an idea has been thoroughly refined and tested, If a quorum can reach agreement that it be approved as a "TG standard SOP" then it be added to the Tactical drills list sticky thread.

              4. Once an idea is approved for the "Tactical Drills" list, the Training manager then adds a drill day(s) for the SOP on the Calendar every month

              This is just a high level view of how I perceive we might standardize our SOP development. Forgive me, process standardization is drilled into me everyday due to my profession.

              But regardless, I'm down for your plans Garthra.


              • #8
                Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

                If you have an idea we should test in the session, post it here. Please be specific and detailed.
                The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"


                • #9
                  Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

                  I think your already on track with what you have planned. I'm just ready to test them out. May I recommend the main discussion occur over Team Speak so OPFOR can hear everything.

                  What I want to try is more on the defense side. Takes three people for one major entry point. A mana turret in front, A max and medic behind. This plays to the Mana turrets invulnerability to small arms and short downtown for a downed engi. The Max covers overflow enemy the mana turret missed. If the engi go's down then the medic picks him up. The reason the Max is in the back is because it takes significant amount of time to repair them taking an engi off the defense.


                  • #10
                    Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

                    MAX on point breaching scenario:

                    Small (4-6 man) Squad loadout - 1 MAX w/lvl 4 or 5 Aegis shield, upgraded suit (FLAK or Kinetic, hard to choose) and dual 'upgraded' AI weapons, 1 (or 2) HA w/concussion grenades and Rocket Launcher), 1 (or 2) Medic w/revive grenades, 1 Egnineer.

                    On SL BREACH order:

                    - MAX unit enters with Aegis shield activated and posts up just inside doorway. This should negate the fatal funnel, at least momentarily.
                    - HA follows MAX, chucks conc over MAX, splits left and lets loose with LMG (if second HA is available, chuck conc and split right with LMG blazing). If enemy has a MAX and/or MANA turret, HA's should lead off with Shrike/Decimator shot.
                    - Engineer next, behind the MAX repairing
                    - Medic last, dropping revive grenade as he enters. Stays behind MAX and heals HA's.

                    For a larger squad, add a MAX and HA's. One might argue that the extra SM's should be medics but, I disagree. Here's why. The point of breaching a room is to clear out an entrenched enemy, not to have a prolonged gun fight. You're going to need firepower and situational awareness (SA). When you're revived by a medic, it takes a moment to regain your SA and to reacquire a target. Time that the enemy will use to mow you down again. In my opinion, a breach maneuver should take seconds, not minutes.

                    Alternate ideas for this scenario:

                    - Replace second HA with a LA. Have him jumpjet to the right as he enters. Moving targets are harder to hit and flying targets are even harder. C4 would be nice here.
                    - Replace second Medic with an Infiltrator. Before breach, place motion sensor/darts. EMP grenades might be an option here.
                    - Second MAX equips dual Falcon/Raven to deal with enemy MAX and engineer turret.



                    • #11
                      Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About


                      So. I take away from your idea that we need to test best use of Max units. Some options are 1.) Max steps forward through door and forward a few more steps with shield up to block funnel. 2.) max walks in with shield and goes left or right. 3.) max sprints in left or right to draw enemy fire away from the door.
                      The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"


                      • #12
                        Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

                        We'll definitely need to test using a MAX for a rapid breach (using the default charge ability) versus using them to block fire. I'm inclined to think the latter is the better choice (with the shield up they can absorb the alpha strike potential of rockets and C4 that is likely to be present if the enemy expects a MAX crash) but given how much of a breach is based around shock and speed I'd be reluctant to rule out the charge ability entirely. Suddenly having to deal with MAX units BEHIND you would be nicely chaos inducing.


                        • #13
                          Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

                          That works, Garthra. I was focusing on a specific technique of breaching when we should be looking at the bigger picture. Good call.

                          I hadn't thought of using the Charge ability, starstriker.. Interesting idea!



                          • #14
                            Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

                            does anyone know if the max shield can block AI mines? just 1-2 mines can really hurt the breach.


                            • #15
                              Re: Breaching Testing and Mess About

                              [MENTION=56436]ghostshooter101[/MENTION]: I think so? I think it block things like C4 and grenades if you orient it towards them, so it should be able to eat a mine. Heck, a MAX can eat a mine without it... probably even trip it without sticking around for the explosion if they charge over it!

                              Another thought: we should experiment with light assaults as part of the breach. In certain buildings, like the standard two story + balcony building, a light assault can heavily disrupt the enemy by popping up to a window and shooting them in the back, or by getting on the roof/balcony and assaulting from that direction, possibly knocking out spawn beacons that are propping up the enemy defense.

                              Not to mention that light assaults get flashbangs, IIRC!




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