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  • Redeployment effeciency

    This is my first time posting on any forum ever so please excuse any Feux Pas or rule violations I may be inadvertently be making.

    The primary focus of this post is to bring to the attention of my fellow TG members in Planetside 2 an observation that has become for me a glaring inefficiency in the manner in which we redeploy or otherwise organize transport from one objective to another. What I notice is that we spend a small but notable amount of time with whole squads idle while command decisions are made or in transit to and from objectives. With the cost to redeploy being so small, I see no reason why any time greater than 15 seconds should be spent loading the squad into transport vehicles, save for max units. I'll give two examples.

    First, in a typical gal drop pulled from warpgate there is no reason, excepting maxes, why the galaxy cannot begin heading for its waypoint as soon as it is spawned. In these cases especially, seconds count, since we are often trying to perform the time critical action of taking and holding capture points. Issues such as rekits, and class changes can be handled in the player menus. There is no need to spend time running back and forth from terminals.

    There is also the simple fact that time spent riding in a sunderer or galaxy is time spent not fighing the enemy and gaining certs. I've been experimenting personally and I've found that it is often possible to spawn at a fight, get a kill or two and return to the squad well before the destination is reached. While I recognize there is some room for error, and there would certainly be a sacrifice to squad cohesion if every idle TG member did this; I also believe that this downside would be substantially mitigated if it were incorporated into our SOP. We already sometimes call, "10 seconds to drop." With a 15 second average redeploy (counting menu navigation) all that would be needed is a one minute to 30 second call before drop. Some experimentation might be needed to find the right time buffers, but the principle and the math is sound.

    In connection to this point, I've also been experimenting with "leapfrogging" redeployments. In many cases where the goal is to move the squad from one end of the map to the other for defending friendly territory, it is likely more efficient to select a squad or platoon member to consecutively redeploy from one friendly territory to another until they reach their intended territory. If I'm not mistaken this player will have to be squad lead, but in any case, the rest of the squad will be able to keep fighting without any real downtime.

    Overall these are just some thoughts and ideas I've been playing around with. I think one of the biggest problems with these sorts of razors edge redeployments is that non TG players will have difficulty keeping up. One way this might be alleviated is to divide public platoons between TG and non TG members. For Example Alpha squad might be TG and Bravo be for any pubbies we pick up, a sort of regulars and militia division if you will lol. However, I think I will start a new thread to expand on my thoughts on this last tactic.

  • #2
    Re: Redeployment effeciency

    There's certainly something to be said for the substantial inefficiencies when we redeploy, and sometimes I will give orders to the effect of spawning into Galaxies en-route when the timing is tight. You are certainly correct that there's a LOT of potential flexibility and power in the approach, and indeed this is how Server Smash is played and many outfits specialize in this kind of fast response. When executed properly, this approach is an enormous strategic advantage.

    However, this kind of thing is a little bit of a hard sell with a lot of the TG crowd. Ultimately, we AREN'T here to win at any cost; winning is the natural result of the way we approach the game, but isn't really the end goal. We're here to play in a certain way, in a disciplined, mature, teamwork oriented fashion that leverages real world tactics and avoids game-y tactics and exploits. It's this last little bit that is a little at odds with redeploy heavy play, and why a lot of our guys prefer to get our ducks in a row and load up while landed, inefficiency be damned.

    My own approach to this has been to find a bit of a middle ground. I don't subject anyone under my command to the ridiculously fast paced redeployment game that dominates competitive play and alerts, and I try to find battlefield niches and approaches where our own brand of play can shine and do something the average outfit cannot. At the same time, I'm happy to order squads to redeploy to Galaxies en-route or loitering nearby. It's really just a matter of not overdoing it, especially when timing isn't tight, and trying to emphasize solid, well run battles over redeploying faster. Personally, I'm frustrated that it's such a dominant part of the game, and I'm usually inclined to not make a habit of it.

    In many cases where the goal is to move the squad from one end of the map to the other for defending friendly territory, it is likely more efficient to select a squad or platoon member to consecutively redeploy from one friendly territory to another until they reach their intended territory. If I'm not mistaken this player will have to be squad lead, but in any case, the rest of the squad will be able to keep fighting without any real downtime.
    The squad lead jumping you describe strikes me as a clear line not to cross because it's doing something goofy and exploitive to take advantage of some of the spawn mechanics. I consider it in the same category as swapping the squad leader around to get additional squad beacons, which is something we emphatically will not do. The squad leader should be sticking with his squad and LEADING that squad.

    ... I also believe that this downside would be substantially mitigated if it were incorporated into our SOP. We already sometimes call, "10 seconds to drop." With a 15 second average redeploy (counting menu navigation) all that would be needed is a one minute to 30 second call before drop. Some experimentation might be needed to find the right time buffers, but the principle and the math is sound.
    I'd advise against doing the "wait in a fight until we're 30s to drop" thing in a TG squad without clearing it with your SL. One of the big practical advantages of taking our time loading up at warpgate is that it serves as a good time to make a squad cohesive and give a short breather. It's also a great way to filter out all the people who aren't listening and sticking with the squad so the SL can cull the herd! If you're off in another fight after the redeploy to warpgate call has been made, some of our SLs will be liable to kick you on the assumption you aren't following orders!

    There is also the simple fact that time spent riding in a sunderer or galaxy is time spent not fighing the enemy and gaining certs.
    Please get away from this mindset! Aside from the practical benefit of downtime in not burning everybody out, certs are not the goal here. We are not in the business of maximizing your cert gain, and playing for a high KDR or a bucketload of certs is antithetical to the TG ethos. That's not to say you won't SEE a boatload of certs playing with us (especially if you're in one of Ghost's armour squads), but, like victory, cert gain is a result of our playstyle and not the end goal.

    We play with a bit of a strange mindset compared to most. The way I like to think of it is "playing the game beautifully", if you'll forgive how corny that sounds. The TG ethos is really, when it comes down to it, the idea that how we play is more important than what rewards we get, how our stats look, or how many wins we have tallied up. When you see it from that point of view, it's easy to see why we're happy to spend an extra minute loading up at warpgate rather than pushing for maximum efficiency.


    I'm sorry if this post comes off a little harsh! We've got a very specific culture here that's critically important to preserve, and doing that is part of my job description as NCO. We've got a bit of an unusual mindset here, so it's not at all unexpected that you might not have internalized that yourself yet, so please don't take this as a reprimand!

    I am happy you're thinking along these lines, though. There's some solid analysis and tactical thinking here, and I'm eager to see what else you can come up with.



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    • #3
      Re: Redeployment effeciency

      ^^^ I agree with pretty mutch what starstriker just said...
      -I'd say the moments is what defines us rather than cert gain or xp gain
      -The moments of dropping from high altitudes to clear a rooftop,
      -The moments of Breaching a room with a lesser force and still managing to come out on top
      -The moments of holding our own in 4 on 1 fight
      -The moments of Arial strikes on targets
      -The moments of saving your buddies tank by putting yourself between them and the fire!
      ... I guess the point im trying to make is that you miss these great little moments if your to focused on "Winning" or "Cert Gain", witch is why I like to imagine is the reason tg plays the way it plays, like takeing those extra few seconds to load into the gal at the warpgate. If your always looking at the clock its easier to miss out on things. We might not do things the fastest or most efficient but I feel as though the way we do things has one of the best feelings and play styles I've ever seen in a game, Unfortunatley though a focus on winning tends to squash this on accident...
      -my two cents
      -Correct me if you think I'm wrong... But I think I have a fairly good point here.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Redeployment effeciency

        Certs are the perk not the point. When i joined TG (BR 12 on NC) obviously certs were on my mind having virtually none. You'll come to find when a TG squad hits its momentum you'll get plenty of certs.

        On to the point of: "For Example Alpha squad might be TG and Bravo be for any pubbies we pick up, a sort of regulars and militia division if you will," with Bravo being all pubbies the most we can expect is them being in the same fight if rarely where we actually need them(example: AT nest on SW mountain is where/what we need, Bravo is all light assaults on roofs.) In addition to that they wont see the enormous team-play we have (which from what I've seen) is our biggest recruiter.

        One other thing to be edited in; some of the squad leads are new and are under training by NCO's and leaders. But even NCO's and leaders use the delay in redeployment to plan the next move, to decide where the next place we can be effective at will be. If you cut that time out, its essentially WP placement then bashing our heads against the wall like any zerg.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Redeployment effeciency

          Many of the tactics you mention [MENTION=117475]Phele[/MENTION] have been used at some point before, but not for the reasons you highlighted and only when requested by the Squad lead or relayed by the Platoon Lead.

          If we are in the field and do not have direct spawn to a location, some SL/PLs will send a squad member ahead to scout or setup spawn logistics or gain Intel, while the squad(s) wipe up at their current location.

          Some SL/PLs will request that the squad(s) hit redeploy when a cap timer is near end, (while their are no other threats to the current location), to allow the whole squad to spawn at a new location as soon as the PL/SL needs it. This is sometimes used when the current location will be lost if the next location is not enforced, eg a link to a tech plant.

          But please note that the above its not about getting the points for the cap/hold its about gaining Intel at minimum cost and been ready to deploy as a whole unit where and when needed. as a consequence the squad may also get some points form a cap/hold within their location.

          Why not pull something, I can kill that threat myself and save the day?
          Why? Because, many PL/SL will monitor when all the squad(s) are 'resource ready' and call for individual assets to be pulled, if you have just used all of your resources without asking, YOU make the PL/SLs plan less effective.

          Eg: PL has requested ALPHA to pull vanguards setup with AV once redeployed. YOU have already pulled a MAX on the other side of the map and are detailed as AA(sky guard) but now either cannot drive or do not have enough resource to pull. Now this mass armour column has a less effective Air deterrent and no one else will have resource to rectify it.

          Gals pulled from warp gate:
          Yes they can be pulled from other 'closer' places, and sometime SL will request a Gal from these locations, but spawn options for these places can change , too many other spawns near SL will push the gal option off the spawn menu when the SL is not near or on board. The Warp Gate is a guaranteed spawn, ALL the time.

          Some SL may send a Gal to head to a location and request squad members to spawn on the gal at once or as the are killed. This also used to drop a full squad when wiped.

          Sunderers:
          Yes they may take a long time to get to Area of Operations, but, they also serve as a means of spawn to the squad and when deployed to other outfits.
          Sunderers can be deployed quickly and the squad load out can be changed as needed.
          Sunderers can pass through areas where Enemy anti air is heavy where as a gal would likely get shot down.

          Eg squad setup for AV MAX/heavy, on route, friendly amour is under attack by enemy air, the sunderer can move to a location with in range, deploy and the squad can re kit for anti Air in seconds.

          "leapfrogging" redeployments:
          This is mainly used by joining member to get to the squads location if no other spawn options are available. PL/SL might send someone to a location which may require more than 1 redeploy, to asses if a drop/deploy would be of any value. This Intel would be stale – over 2 minutes old once a plan of action had been formed from it.

          Having the whole squad “leapfrogging” would be impractical as well, again, if one of the jumps lost its spawn, then you end up having the squad spread into many location unable to support each other, (Heaves with no engineers, engineers with no medic, orphaned from each other) and unable to complete its objective.

          Divide public platoons between TG and non TG members:

          Running a full squad with only 1 or 2 TG members and the rest non TG will be hard work for the PL/SL as many of the squad will be un familiar with TG the SOP, better to set recruiting to TG only until more TG can join (at least half).

          Running a squad full of TG only, does not advertise how we do what we do and does not allow others to get a taste of how Tactical Gamer runs.

          We sometimes do run TG only squads, especially when training new squad members or new leaders, we will also use TG only squads to test ideas discussed in the forums or on team speak.

          Remember Tactical Gamer is not about getting the points or certs for the cap/hold/kills, Tactical Gamer is about having a group of people who like to do the same things in an organised way, ready to move as a team, covering each others weak side, helping other members along the way and sharing ideas while having fun in a disciplined environment.
          Last edited by vts; 01-18-2015, 01:37 PM.

          (6..~)Z Z z z....

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          • #6
            Re: Redeployment effeciency

            Vts, I want to have your babies.
            Communications, Cohesion, Confidence.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Redeployment effeciency

              Originally posted by vts View Post
              Remember Tactical Gamer is not about getting the points or certs for the cap/hold/kills, Tactical Gamer is about having a group of people who like to do the same things in an organised way, ready to move as a team, covering each others weak side, helping other members along the way and sharing ideas while having fun in a disciplined environment.
              So right mate.
              The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Redeployment effeciency

                I thank you all for your responses and would like to assauge any concerns about my being concerned about certs or K/D. My intent in minimizing the idle time of our members has a great deal more to do with enabling them to contribute to the greater effort of our faction than gaining certs.

                I'm also glad that it was pointed out that "leapfroging" is considered explotative. Redeploying is such an easy and integral part of the game that it never even occured to me that it could be construed this way, especially since the game has such features as the instant action or the reinforcements needed spawn options that streamline this very thing for players.

                However, I still stand by my original point, despite the cons. I've been choosing a fight to wait in since I joined. It is a simple matter of continuing to listen to the SL and PL. I comply with their orders to rekit and redeploy precisely as if I were at the warpgate or otherwise idle. I only spawn as infantry and certainly not as an infil wandering the wastes in search of snowmen. I'm not pulling assets just to leave them behind after a minute, so I'm not sure where vts got that, but hey, I bet some people would lolol. I can see now how this tactic might not be a good thing to implement overall, but as long as it's working for me and not huring the squad I think I will continue.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Redeployment effeciency

                  Please check that with the SL before doing it. You'll probably find many of our SLs to be receptive, but mustering at the warpgate is often done for a reason. A reason I'll do it aside from culling the squad of people who aren't listening is to get everything sorted out of contact. Getting things organized while in motion or in contact with the enemy adds a complicating factor to everything as no plan survives contact with the enemy. Redeploying to a galaxy on the move is just another moving part to managing in what might be a complicated operation, and increases the possibility of error.

                  For instance: say the squad has loading into a Galaxy at warpgate, but you've stayed behind to redeploy in 30s to drop. However, 20 seconds from the drop zone the Galaxy is ambushed by a Liberator and forced to drop everyone some distance from the target and the SL elects to continue on foot. You now don't have a spawn option to redeploy with the squad; the SL now either has to burn a beacon on you (something they might have preferred to save) or you'll have to find your own way to the fight.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Redeployment effeciency

                    [MENTION=117475]Phele[/MENTION]

                    Why not pull something...
                    This is not in relation to the content of your post but more to do with the title of the post, 'Redeployment efficiency',to enforce why pulling assets without asking your SL matters and effects the efficiency of a redeploy.

                    A few days ago, I was ordered to pull a gal, next time I died, way before the redeploy order
                    Another member of the squad also pulled a gal at the same time as I.

                    The squad ended up with two Gals, one with TG members and a few pubbies, and the other holding 2 or 3 squad members who did not know which gal to redeploy/load into.


                    This created even more issues and delayed the reason the gal was to be pulled early in the first place.

                    [MENTION=16189]starstriker1[/MENTION]: :) I normally end up pulling that lib away from an emergency drop with my Gal in hope to bail myself., Lib pilot normally does not notice a troop drop while engaged with a tasty burning gal and is happy to move on as long as they get someones name on the kill list. But with that decision I sacrifice my mobility and squad asset, in place for overview of the area and help with route fining via the map if required.

                    (6..~)Z Z z z....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Redeployment effeciency

                      Originally posted by vts View Post
                      [MENTION=16189]starstriker1[/MENTION]: :) I normally end up pulling that lib away from an emergency drop with my Gal in hope to bail myself., Lib pilot normally does not notice a troop drop while engaged with a tasty burning gal and is happy to move on as long as they get someones name on the kill list. But with that decision I sacrifice my mobility and squad asset, in place for overview of the area and help with route fining via the map if required.
                      That's a very different situation!



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Redeployment effeciency

                        I agree with the point you are trying to make, but honestly your example is ridiculous. I should stay with the squad in case we get shot down? In case we need to drop in the middle of nowhere? Even if we are close enough to our objective for continuing on foot to be viable, that would also mean that I would have already spawned back in the Gal to be ready for the drop. All that means is that we would need a one minute call instead of 30 seconds, as I said in my original post.

                        Also, as I said in my second post, I personally have no more trouble in contact or outside of contact complying with instructions. If I had trouble following instructions during combat, then that is a far more fundamental problem than we are discussing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Redeployment effeciency

                          Originally posted by Phele View Post
                          I agree with the point you are trying to make, but honestly your example is ridiculous. I should stay with the squad in case we get shot down? In case we need to drop in the middle of nowhere? Even if we are close enough to our objective for continuing on foot to be viable, that would also mean that I would have already spawned back in the Gal to be ready for the drop. All that means is that we would need a one minute call instead of 30 seconds, as I said in my original post.
                          It's not so outlandish as you might think. As an SL, I won't always know when I need my squad to deploy NOW; maybe a better example is an emergency redirect to a base as we fly over.

                          Also, as I said in my second post, I personally have no more trouble in contact or outside of contact complying with instructions. If I had trouble following instructions during combat, then that is a far more fundamental problem than we are discussing.
                          Your ability to follow instruction isn't in question; the ability of squad members to actually execute upon those instruction while in contact, however, is unreliable, at best. This is something I see first hand often, as a tactical error I make constantly is to try and muster my squads too close to the fight. In close contact with the enemy people get peeled off, shot where they can't be picked up, fall behind for one reason or another, or the squad as a whole is forced to wait and hold in a situation where waiting and holding for the squad to form up can get us killed. The smarter play, the one I need to try and make, is to muster some distance behind the front line in a low-pressure situation, THEN advance to contact.

                          Squad cohesion (IMO, the most critical aspect of making a squad effective) is difficult to form, and becomes exponentially more difficult when the enemy is actively trying to tear it down or when everything is already in motion. Retaining cohesion that you've already got, however, is substantially easier, and the more you have it the easier it is to keep it.

                          Another point which I failed to mention: you may feel confident that you can manage the timing to stick around in a fight and pad your score a bit then rejoin when you're needed, but when you do so (especially if it is counter to SL orders) you are setting an example for other members of the squad that might be much less disciplined and capable of handling that gracefully. When they see you ignore the SL's order, they'll be more inclined to do the same, and the cohesion and discipline of the squad will suffer in turn.



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                          • #14
                            Re: Redeployment effeciency

                            You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to starstriker1 again.

                            Phele don't be discouraged by the answers you are getting this is a good discussion. Make sure to heed them though these guys are NCO's for a reason :icon7:
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              Re: Redeployment effeciency

                              Yes, the emergency redirect example makes much more sense. In that case the safest bet would be to redeploy as soon as the gal leaves the warpgate, and then there is almost no point in trying to redeploy elsewhere before departure. So with this in mind I concede the point. I'm really glad we were able to really dig into this idea. Now I can wait patiently for as long as needed with the certainty that our time is being used to its utmost efficiency. :)

                              Also, the new point you bring up about the example it sets for me to disobey the SL is also an excellent one. Undermining the authority of the squad lead is certainly a price not worth paying just for a little bit of extra time in combat. As I said in my original post, we certainly wouldn't want everyone doing this on their own. I had thought that by incorporating the practice into SOP or at least getting SL permission that could be avoided, but in the light of Starstrikers latest points it simply isn't worth doing.

                              So, no worries on me taking anything personal, and I hope no one else took anything personal. I don't intend to be confrontational. It's just my manner when discussing ideas. I feel as though if we are truly to determine the truth of things, those ideas must be made to fight to the death, as it were. However, I have the maturity to see those ideas as separate from the person. When ideas argue, truth wins. When people argue, no one wins. I think we all get that.

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