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  • Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

    Dear TG,

    We have had a resurgence of interest in room breaching recently. A lot of people have been through training on it in the last few weeks that had not been through it before and were not around when it was designed. I thought these new people might have new ideas on how to make it more effective, or improve it.

    Here is the place to post your ideas and we can all discuss them and weigh in.
    I am not guaranteeing everything mentioned here will be adopted or incorporated into my next training. I am against changing drills frequently or without a really solid reason because if you change them too frequently they cease to be drills and become experiments.
    However nothing in life is perfect, and so I believe there is room for improvement here too.

    Let's hear it. Got ideas on how we can breach better?
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

  • #2
    Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

    IMO, the best way to improve the breaching drill (both as a maneuver and as a training tool) is to make it something we can do all the time, and then do it all the time.

    The opportunities to execute a textbook breach in Planetside are few and far between. The pace of the game often makes stacking up too dangerous, or the time spent stacking, clearing, and waiting too valuable to spend. Various threats or pressures also threaten to derail a proper breach; a couple people dropping from an unseen flank can cause a huge stall. On top of all this, people with the full drill memorized are rare which again slows or botches the execution. As a result, rather than apply the full procedure in an ineffective or risky way, we usually just forget about it and don't implement it in practise.

    The current breach has these steps:
    • SL calls for stacking up, appoints a demoman
    • SL calls "set"
    • Demoman throws grenade, calls "breach!"
    • Squad enters, fanning along the walls in a zipper and calling their corners


    The answer, IMO, is to develop and constantly apply a version of the breach that can be applied by minimally trained (IE, on the job/by osmosis) players, executed rapidly start to finish, and is kept as simple as possible. Remove as many moving parts as possible; nix the grenade prep of the room entirely, forget about a proper "zipper", and the SL calls the entire operation start to finish. In this version of the drill, it boils down to these steps:
    • SL calls for stacking up
    • When they feel critical mass is hit, SL calls "breach!" (I prefer "GO GO GO", but both work)
    • Squad enters, fanning along the walls and calling corners

    Isolating command and control to the SL keeps things snappy and prevents multiple untrained members from stumbling over the process. Losing the grenade speeds up the operation, and rarely is important enough to keep unless you've got an infil or LA specialized in your squad for the job. Removing the zipper is largely an afterthought; in practical terms we won't be well drilled enough to do that reliably.

    Most importantly, for members unfamiliar with the drill (or who have forgotten), they can follow along with minimal instruction. The SL calling for the squad to stack on a specific side of the door is a fairly unambiguous order, and calling out the corners is something that'll become second nature once they've heard it done a couple times. I think this covers the crucial elements; we have the stack up to concentrate our force, we enter the room simultaneously, and we call out the corners to manage a clean sweep.

    That leaves a few fundamentals left to be trained, or expounded upon by the SL in a low pressure situation:
    • Covering a sector while stacked up
    • Moving along the walls while entering
    • Avoiding the fatal funnel


    The breach WORKS without any of this, but it works much better if those elements are there. Heck, they're great skills for general use, not just breaching. IMO, explicit training should emphasize those fundamental skills above formalized execution.

    This isn't to say we don't train the full, by the numbers breach. In martial arts, you'll learn forms and techniques in an "ideal" form; for instance, a basic punch in Taekwondo is trained with the torso full facing, opposite arm pulled back to the hip, in a specific shoulder width stance with a straight back leg and bent front leg. In an actual fight, you'd almost never fully execute any of those elements exactly. You want your opposite arm up to guard, your stance looser, etc. However, the training done in the idealized way informs the more pragmatic execution, training the fundamentals of using the opposite arm for reaction force, having a stable stance, etc. By analogy, I feel this is the relation our by the numbers breach should have to our day to day usage of it.



    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

      I would agree with the trimmed down version of the breaching maneuver. The only comment I would have is that while I would agree that most of the orders are pretty self explanatory (I.E. "stack up", "breach"), the specific way in which the orders are to be carried out is not. With this, I am referring specifically to the processes of fanning out into the room and avoiding the fatal funnel.

      While I believe the method starstriker1 proposes would indeed cut down on a lot of the unnecessary elements of a formal breach maneuver without critically compromising it's effectiveness, I think the bit about entering in a zipper formation may not be readily apparent to either non-TG players or TG members who have not undergone formal breach training. The entry method itself is, in my opinion, one of the most important elements in a successful breach, and I feel that it should be preserved if at all possible.

      Communicating the entry method to the squad could be as easy as merely giving a brief explanation in between engagements or even during execution as part of the order itself ("Breach, fan out into the room! Keep clear of the doorway!"). I would certainly welcome any input on this specifically, as it is something I am considering how to approach myself. Assuring that my squad is all on the same page *before* the action hits is very important to me.

      All of that said, I definitely think this is something that could be a very useful tool in a squad lead's tool belt, and it is certain worth refining! Formal breaches are very fun to participate in and extremely satisfying to execute, but as starstriker1 said, when the bullets start flying, it is nice to have the trimmed-down basics to fall back to. Fewer moving parts means fewer things that can go wrong. I look forward to hearing other people's thoughts on this!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

        So I pretty much agree with all the above's that have been said except im not sure about the fan vs the Zipper The fan could be useful but i feel the the zipper is safer and still just as simple to explain as the fan shape something as simple as With the zipper First person slides along the door left the next slides along the door right and vica versa. And I really agree with the idea of having a simpler breach to fall back on too that SL's might not feel as intimidated trying to form. Also it should be noted that It should be SOP (As much as we dont like to change it) that people shouldnt enter a room without SL's permission or at the very least it might be a good idea, I also wrote the following before reallizing the two notes above me due to theres being typed while I wrote mine anyhow bear that in mind whilst reading this
        -So my thoughts are this
        -Standard breaches while effective i feel are slow to set up due to one element and that's the demo man. first off SL has to establish a demo man and ensure he has a proper grenade type witch finding a volunteer on the fly can take unnecessary time.
        -second off the process of getting stacking up with the demo man and giving the orders to stack up set and then having the demo man toss the grenade call frag out then call breach breach breach often times in live fire conditions leaves the squad very vulnerable due to the time gap, we'll be stacked up and as were prepping we'll lose a few guys that the medics have to pick up and that keeps happening over and over effectively removing a large portion of power on the initial breach. And often times what Ive heard is that we need to train better to be faster in this, and while true, i believe developing two types of breaches could be beneficial to the Sl, each with a different purpose in mind. The other type is simply a simplified version so the changes would be minimal.

        Breach Type #1
        -Fairly standard one that we use nowadays,
        1. Demo man is named
        2. smoke is deployed to cover demo man upon approach to entrance
        3. SL Calls for stack up on one side of a doorway
        4. SL Calls "set" giving the demo permission to do his thing
        5. Demo chucks the grenade and calls "Grenade out!"
        6. Demo calls "Breach Breach Breach"
        7. The Squad enters the doorway in what ive been endearingly referring to it as the "Zipper Formation"
        Purpose and uses
        -When we are under little direct fire
        -have at least 20 secs to plan ahead,
        -when we want to breach a room that has the enemy pretty sealed in tight but not much looking at us from the outside of the building.
        -good for breaking a strong point hold

        Overall thoughts
        "The Standard room breach whilst it may be good in many situations in many games such as arma "Not that ive played arma only assuming here" and more i find to be somewhat time consuming and inflexible in many situations in planetside 2 with alot to remember on the fly while were executing fast paced and often frantic game play to keep everyone up and running things can be missed constituting to lesser strength of our attack force if were under fire from the outside. Viable but only under certain circumstances

        What i purpose is coming up with something called The fast breach meant to reduce outdoor exposure time at the cost of not having a grenade thrown to soften up our enemies.

        Breach type #2 The Fast Breach
        A simplified version of the standard breach meant to reduce downtime exposure and enemies knowledge of our position
        1. SL calls "Stack up on left or right hand side of the doorway"
        2. once everyone is stacked The SL will call "Breach Breach Breach" just as we normally do
        3. The Squad then moves out along the doors in the "Zipper Formation" and afterwards we decided what to do from there
        -So doing it in this way does a few key things
        A) It minimizes downtime keeping much more of your forces active for the breach
        B) No Grenade marker inside the building means the enemy has a bit of a tougher time figuring out were your coming from
        C) Not as much for newer SL's to manage
        D) Its Faster and sometimes safer than waiting for the time it takes the demo man to toss the grenade.
        -A little earlier yesterday princess (and me mabey dont remember if i got the opportunity to try this) had the opportunity to test this and it made for a very good rapid and somewhat safer entry just due to the fact that we weren't getting caught up in the line of fire for as long on the outside of the building
        -The main issue ive come across in employing breaches into live fire situations is simply getting everyone together at the same time meanwhile having people dying before we even enter the room. The idea for this came for the feeling of the need to go faster and simpler.
        Perpose and uses
        - Quicker breaches when were under fire from the outside
        -stealthier breaches for gaining the element of surprise
        - entering a room in a low pop area in a safe manner being able to easily overwhelm 2 to 3 infantrymen with minimal losses on our end
        - Still being able to breach effectively even if all the squad hasn't been 100% trained on breach training. Its a little easier to explain Stack up on the outside then breach by each squad mate going left then right then left

        Honestly the goal of this breach type is not to replace the original completely but rather to understand how doing it faster has its value along with doing it more traditionally Under live fire conditions it seems to be somewhat usable and usable in more situations. Not saying its tried and true but initial experiments have proved effective. Id like to hear your thoughts and worries with this breach type though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

          Originally posted by RaymondScout View Post
          So I pretty much agree with all the above's that have been said except im not sure about the fan vs the Zipper The fan could be useful but i feel the the zipper is safer and still just as simple to explain as the fan shape something as simple as With the zipper First person slides along the door left the next slides along the door right and vica versa.
          Sorry, I probably should have been more clear on this. In my post, 'fan out' is in essence shorthand for the 'zipper'. The reason I went with 'fan out' instead was to try to establish shorthand that non-TG could understand organically and act upon. They may not necessarily understand what we mean by 'zipper', but they will have a rough idea of what 'fan out' means. The main goal here is to communicate that the squad should be dispersing into the room, not bunching up in front of the door. The zipper will always be the preferred method, of course, but in lieu of that, I feel it would be advantageous to at least ensure that the squad does not bunch up upon entry.

          Originally posted by RaymondScout View Post
          Honestly the goal of this breach type is not to replace the original completely but rather to understand how doing it faster has its value along with doing it more traditionally Under live fire conditions it seems to be somewhat usable and usable in more situations. Not saying its tried and true but initial experiments have proved effective. Id like to hear your thoughts and worries with this breach type though.
          I think having a quicker 'Fast Breach' method would be a very powerful addition to a squad leader's arsenal indeed. I have done formal, live fire breaches that have been resounding successes, but the opportunities for them are so few and far between due to the specific set of circumstances that have to be in place for it to be a viable option. I think the main advantages of a 'Fast Breach' variant of the formal breach would be, as you said, shorter exposure time and a quicker execution. I also, however, want it to be easy enough to understand so that it can be used with players who have not taken formal breach training. Being able to do it in a squad non-TG members would not only be a great boon to the effectiveness of the squad when entering buildings, but go a long way in establishing the caliber of play they can expect from TG. And as starstriker1 said, even if we don't do it that often, they are good skills to have regardless.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

            Ayumi, I wouldn't use the words "fan out" as people may get the wrong idea and spread out into the middle of the room, which is just about the opposite of what you are supposed to do (slide down the walls).

            I would keep the drill and training largely as is. Yes, people who have not been through the training will miss important details, but so what. Better to have a few of the people performing the breach know the proper way, even if everyone doesn't execute it exactly right, than dumb it down to where it is less/ineffective. Discussion afterwards can help train the new people, and/or motivate them to attend the next breach training. There will always be a gap in execution between those who have trained and drilled in this multiple times vs those who haven't, but there's nothing you can do about that. Just let those who are more experienced be the demoman, and the first 1-2 in on each side. That way they can call the corners, lead the way in, etc.

            Only other thing I would add, I would do the call outs in prox. When you start doing something like this, blueberries see what you are doing and join in. Plus it's good advertising for TG to be seen executing breaches like this in game. Just make the point to everyone to slide down the walls in prox before you go in, especially if there are a lot of blueberries joining in, and/or a green squad. Only takes 2 seconds.
            "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

              Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
              I
              The answer, IMO, is to develop and constantly apply a version of the breach that can be applied by minimally trained (IE, on the job/by osmosis) players, executed rapidly start to finish, and is kept as simple as possible. Remove as many moving parts as possible; nix the grenade prep of the room entirely, forget about a proper "zipper", and the SL calls the entire operation start to finish. In this version of the drill, it boils down to these steps:
              • SL calls for stacking up
              • When they feel critical mass is hit, SL calls "breach!" (I prefer "GO GO GO", but both work)
              • Squad enters, fanning along the walls and calling corners

              ....

              The breach WORKS without any of this, but it works much better if those elements are there. Heck, they're great skills for general use, not just breaching. IMO, explicit training should emphasize those fundamental skills above formalized execution.However, the training done in the idealized way informs the more pragmatic execution, training the fundamentals of using the opposite arm for reaction force, having a stable stance, etc. By analogy, I feel this is the relation our by the numbers breach should have to our day to day usage of it.
              [MENTION=33568]Randy_Shughart_ClwFL[/MENTION] ; I agree with Randy, I am still in favor of following current procedure.
              The reason for this is that current procedure does not have to be slow. Demo man can be named before hand by SL, so that takes no time just before the breach. If the demo man and SL are awake and moving fast throwing a grenade into the room adds two or three seconds. The "Stack up" and "set" calls can be literally one right after the other, as soon as the force is stacked. Except when the outside of the target is Extremely dangerous, 2 or 3 seconds traded for an EMP or flash grenade, or smoke inside, seems a good trade. I believe we can speed up the tempo of the current drill by drilling it faster. Find another gear ourselves. I am completely willing to work on speeding up the current process with a core group of people. It just takes training, and I am always down for that. Every drill is slow when you have not drilled it enough.

              I hear an implication arguments that a formal breach is too hard for untrained members, but to have a grenade you only need 1 trained member. (demo man/woman.) In fact if the SL truely has no one trained in their squad they can do the whole thing themselves (although I think that would be poor policy because the first person in will likely get shot, and that should not be SL.) Having one infiltrator in a squad, or one LA, or one heavy assault with a concussion grenade is not a serious loss to squad power in any respect.
              [MENTION=16189]starstriker1[/MENTION] ; I also agree the SL can always make the call to cut out the grenade for reasons of speed or lack of enemy contacts or danger outside. I also agree with you that breaching with a grenade or smoke does make it more effective. I disagree that we need to make formal breach something we use only in training as an "idealized form."

              I think in the end the SL has to decide if the exterior is too hot, or the likelihood of enemies too low to warrant using a grenade or smoke. They could simply say something like "No grenade breach, I will make all the calls." Then the SL will call "Stack up, SET,... GO GO GO [or "BREACH!"]. It is very important, as [MENTION=132620]Ayumi[/MENTION] mentions, to make sure the squad understands what they are doing before hand. Even without grenade, I believe the "set" command has value in that it coordinates the squad and tells them the breach command will be coming up soon.

              Although I see several people have reasonable arguments for a simplified no grenade version, I am still in favor of formal breach. I worry by diluting that procedure and shifting to a simpler method we will stifle ourselves and eventually lose the ability to do a full breach with grenade and or smoke correctly. When the hard fight comes we will need smoke or a grenade, and we will be awkward in using them because of lack of practice.

              But at the end of the day the SL on the scene has to make a call, and decide how they approach a building. If the SL on the ground thinks a grenade is unnecessary that is their decision to make.
              The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                -If I might add my two cents the purpose of coming up with this secondary drill was NOT TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL! It was to give the SL the option under fire from the outside of the building to shave off a few seconds
                -My main issue and frustration with the standard breach is finding a way to take it into live play. Quite frequently when I've tried a good chunk of my squad has been gunned down before we can even enter the building And I know the common argument (Drill it better Drill it better) Witch agreeably is true But with the now growing player base of TG it becomes more and more difficult to get everyone on the same page with breaches. There Really fun when you execute them correctly, but all in all when ive taken them live the situations where applicable can very greatly. And you know maybe we wont even call what i refered to as "Fast Breaches" breaches. maybe its just how we should enter a room period and breaches are for taking out the "Really Dug In" Rooms. I think standard breaches should still be practiced and put to use whenever possible because i believe them to be more effective however tossing aside the idea of doing a faster one that can be used whilst under pressure l I believe is a mistake. Both of these would be a useful Tool. You dont throw away your hammer just because you bought yourself a screwdriver.

                2 secondary thoughts
                -If we charge a room maybey sl should just tell everyone to move in a zipper in advance rather than formalizing it by calling the stack Because like i said sometimes the standard breach is impractical depending on the situation at hand. The end goal of this is to ensure were not just blindly charging a room and hoping we make it like we have done in the past. If we dont have time for a formal breach but still want to enter safely is where I feel this could be put to the best use
                -Sly had an interesting idea he voiced to me by splitting up the squad to have a smaller force through each doorway but having them attack from all sides, I wonder myself how this would turn out but have yet to experiment with it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                  Originally posted by RaymondScout View Post
                  -If I might add my two cents the purpose of coming up with this secondary drill was NOT TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL! It was to give the SL the option under fire from the outside of the building to shave off a few seconds
                  -My main issue and frustration with the standard breach is finding a way to take it into live play. Quite frequently when I've tried a good chunk of my squad has been gunned down before we can even enter the building And I know the common argument (Drill it better Drill it better) Witch agreeably is true But with the now growing player base of TG it becomes more and more difficult to get everyone on the same page with breaches. There Really fun when you execute them correctly, but all in all when ive taken them live the situations where applicable can very greatly. And you know maybe we wont even call what i refered to as "Fast Breaches" breaches. maybe its just how we should enter a room period and breaches are for taking out the "Really Dug In" Rooms. I think standard breaches should still be practiced and put to use whenever possible because i believe them to be more effective however tossing aside the idea of doing a faster one that can be used whilst under pressure l I believe is a mistake. Both of these would be a useful Tool. You dont throw away your hammer just because you bought yourself a screwdriver.

                  2 secondary thoughts
                  -If we charge a room maybey sl should just tell everyone to move in a zipper in advance rather than formalizing it by calling the stack Because like i said sometimes the standard breach is impractical depending on the situation at hand. The end goal of this is to ensure were not just blindly charging a room and hoping we make it like we have done in the past. If we dont have time for a formal breach but still want to enter safely is where I feel this could be put to the best use
                  -Sly had an interesting idea he voiced to me by splitting up the squad to have a smaller force through each doorway but having them attack from all sides, I wonder myself how this would turn out but have yet to experiment with it.
                  RaymondScout,
                  It sounds like we are not disagreeing really, just talking slightly past each other. I am ok with the SL modifying the formal breach any time they need to. That includes taking out the greande or doing a "simplified breach" or "fast breach" as you call it. I get that it can be dangerous to stay outside and modifications can be made by the SL.

                  My policy has always been we should ALWAYS enter rooms by zippering. Always. Every time. Even when there is no breach, even when there is no enemy, even when we are asleep, always.
                  So I think I am getting confused when several people are saying "why don't we simplify the breach, and I am thinking "a simplified breach should mean you enter the room like you always do." I have many times entered a room where no formal breach was called and checked my corner and said "clear right" on squad... I think we need to remind the community of that concept: "every entry a breach." Maybe it was my bad for not emphasizing it enough.
                  The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                    -thats probably a fair point, and yeah i don't think were disagreeing either. Maybey sl's should make it a habit to remind people about the zippering room entry in our squads that way its common practice, just as how we set up point holds is. So maybe its not really worth training on but simply having our SL's bring it up like we do with point holds is worth something as well. I think ill start doing that in squads that I lead. The thing I frequently see though is a headlong charge in a tripple straight up to the stairs witch leaves us more exposed than necessary witch would be a good thing to make not happen as often, this is initially what sparked my interest in breaches. Whereas I think the goal of breaches in the normal sense is to break a stronghold point rather than being used to enter safely every time. Also I thought I heard via Word of mouth that the rooftop breaches are best not tried in the formal sense (Id be curios to hear your thoughts on that)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                      The "Formal" breach tactic is/was never meant to be used as a by the book, all the time method of engaging an enemy force within the confines of a building. Instead, it is used when necessary, by which I mean that if the enemy force has solidified their position and is now "bunkered" down, you formally breach. In all other cases, most breaches will occur with people engaging using multiple vectors of attack. I.E. Windows, both(all) doors etc. THAT is how a "Fast" breach is done. 1 point I did forget to mention is that by no means is a grenade ever unnecessary. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the grenade is probably the most useful breach tool in your arsenal. With a grenade you can disorient your enemy thereby buying YOU a few seconds of reprieve upon engagement. This reprieve will inevitably and invariably give you the upper hand. The tossing of a grenade takes a minimal amount of time. In fact, when done right, a fast breach from multiple points of entry, with multiple grenades being thrown from all directions can be executed in less than 15 seconds properly assuming the squad knows the various points of ingress. IN GAME. In real life it takes slightly longer to set up because we don't have jetpacks (looking at you LA's). Point being that if you want to change the way you breach on the fly, fine. Do so. But do it properly. The so called "Formal" breach is invaluable and should in no way shape or form should it be changed for simplicities sake.
                      #BlameCairbre

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                        I don't agree on the grenade, except for very specific situations (enemy clustered or heavily entrenched, preferable with an EMP or flashbang). IMO it's just not very effective in Planetside. If this were Project Reality, where a grenade in a room was a legitimate threat to everyone in there and applied a nasty concussive/suppressive effect to boot, sure, absolutely, but in PS2 a single frag is often barely an annoyance and unless you KNOW the room is locked down or crowded it's usually not worth the extra moving parts.

                        Here's roughly where I stand on this:
                        • The by the numbers breach is very situational. I need a squad that is by majority drilled on the procedure, I need to be under minimal pressure, at-this-moment squad cohesion needs to be very tight, and I have to know I have a room ahead that's worth burning time and effort on the procedure. It's also fragile; attempting it is a risk even with drilled participants, and under chaotic conditions or someone jumping the gun the whole thing falls apart. This all makes it difficult to find a situation in live play to apply it, and that in turn means we get very little live fire experience with the drill, which in turn means we're not very good at it or don't build it into our standard playbook.

                        • We need a version of the breach that is fast and simple to address these shortcomings, that is error resistant, features as little communication as possible (comms get lost in a big fight) and viable even with non-TG in the group with us. Such a stripped down version (or version with modified calls to accomodate lack of training and prime the squad members) would be more generally applicable in the fast paced and chaotic environments of PS2.

                        • Having such a version and using it often will allow us to build breaching into our day-to-day vocabulary and make the by-the-numbers breach more viable thanks to greater familiarity with the overall process. A stripped down informal version is better than nothing, and may enable us to better bring a more formalized breach to bear when we really need it. Right now we by and large DON'T breach; maybe an informal version will allow us to start to change that.

                        • An informal version that we can execute more often is also a valuable opportunity for training; not everyone will have been in the normal breaching drill, and we might be able to spread the ideas to more of our members.

                        • We need to make allowances for the fact that our squads will never be perfect; we don't have the luxury of drilling for months so that every member can execute it in their sleep. We play pick-up games on the internet, often with members new to our organization or with strangers in the mix. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good!

                        • I view the skills around entering a room, calling corners, etc to be a different subject in many ways, valuable beyond just their application in a breach! Anything we can do to make those skills better known and better practiced within our community will reap dividends, even when we're not executing a breach! I think setting good examples in-game is one way to increase usage, and SLs giving reminders to "clear your corners" when entering might also help.



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                          I agree that grenade first is largely ineffective in a full organized breach (On the other hand, left up to an individual to throw when they feel most opportune, I consider it effective) - most of the time that grenade doesn't go anywhere or do anything important in an organized breach; less often it will just kill teammates, and even less often than killing teammates, it will actually hurt an enemy. (Note: Hurt, almost never kill!) The exception to this is the EMP, which has incredible range when it explodes; any squad with an infiltrator should ALWAYS EMP breach small/medium rooms when the enemy are known to be in the location. It eliminates possible enemy mines, disables enemy HUD, depletes the infiltrator cloak and heavy assault shield, and if they're close enough to the detonation, takes out their shields. The fact that the demoman/pointman infiltrator can cloak and go around the corner also means the reaction to his presence/grenade toss, even by a prepared enemy, is that much less effective, and his aim that much close to target. Infiltrator breach is so incredibly effective that given the chance I'd breach with EMP's every time; unfortunately infiltrator players are very few in TG.

                          My personal assessment is that 8 is the minimum number for a breach without an EMP grenade, and preferably a full squad of 12. EMP grenades could be seen as increasing squad size by 1.5x-2x due to their effect on the enemy; so a minimum in that case would be 4-6 people breaching.

                          As far as training goes, I don't think there's much for the majority of the squad to actually train on. The only two that I feel are actually worth looking at is the squad leader and the infiltrator pointman:

                          Squad Leader:
                          - Getting the squad stacked on the door together, and doing it quickly
                          - Making a good and accurate assessment of defender numbers and putting the squad against that in a way that local superiority is preserved
                          - Get someone to be an infiltrator point man with EMP grenades prior to breaching

                          Infiltrator pointman:
                          - Getting equipped with EMP grenades and possibly a bandolier
                          - Practicing with EMP grenade tosses on the kinds of rooms that are commonly assaulted
                          - Learning/knowing, intuitively, the distances EMP grenades and their effects work at

                          Edit: Infiltrator pointman may also want to deploy his sensors at some point prior to breach so everyone has a better idea of how many defenders and their locations inside.
                          Last edited by Wintermote; 10-08-2015, 09:44 PM.
                          http://i.imgur.com/Pn1UxKo.png - Tactical Gamer // Planetside 2

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                          • #14
                            Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                            Originally posted by Wintermote View Post
                            As far as training goes, I don't think there's much for the majority of the squad to actually train on. The only two that I feel are actually worth looking at is the squad leader and the infiltrator pointman:
                            I see what you are saying, the squad leader and point man have to know more, and have more specialized knowledge than the others. You summarize well what the SL and grenade thrower have to know.
                            Yet, I think you are wrong to say that there is nothing for majority of squad to train on. Do they need less training than the demo / point man throwing the grenade? Sure.

                            But a mob of people rushing a room is simply not as effective as trained soldiers breaching a room. Just about anything in life is improved with training and practice.

                            Now, is getting people trained in doing anything a challenging task given the nature of Planetside 2 and the free to play / open nature of our squads? Yes.
                            However that is a separate issue; difficulty does not make it pointless.
                            The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

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                            • #15
                              Re: Comments and Ideas for Breaching Drill Update?

                              deploy his sensors at some point prior to breach
                              Am I mistaken or do the sensors only show 'moving/running' enemy?

                              If this is the case then a well trained defence(like a TG defence point hold) would not be picked up due to the enemy holding in wait (not moving around).

                              * The sensor also lets the enemy know, 'you are around'

                              * It might only give you the position of one enemy scouting the area.


                              From what I have seen from many breaching outfit, I like the TG Trained one the best.

                              * Remember, it is a tool that an SL can use if the situation calls for it.

                              * The SL has the 'choice' to cut parts out on the fly or pre planned or use the 'full breach'

                              * It would help the squad if the SL at the time, covered the basics of a breach.

                              If the SL is going to use any part of a breach, the most important part is:

                              Stack {here}.
                              Whether this is the whole squad behind a rock, near a door way or a split squad stacking on multiple areas. If the stack is not set or takes too long or in part is the wrong place, it is no longer a controlled breach.

                              --

                              A section that could be drilled more, is the zipper and what to do once your inside the breached cleared floor

                              The squad is now split with those whom went left and whom when right:
                              Should you all meet for the next breach {closest stairs} or stay split and breach both stairs?

                              As it strands the full breach is used to gain entry to the building, then we tend to use mini less focused breaches inside

                              I would like to see more training on a building that has more than one choice entrance on each level and the options an SL may have at each stage.

                              Do you keep the same demo at each stage? (may need three primary nades for the entrance, stairs, point room)

                              (6..~)Z Z z z....

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