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  • Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

    Tonight during the AAR logistics came up. I see lots of point holds that almost make it, and would make it with a bit more logistics.

    I am posing this open questions to get ideas from everyone: How do we better integrate sunderers into our squads?
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

  • #2
    Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

    Sunderers:
    One sunderer is never enough. You'll want 2-3 at least, with each placed on the opposite side of the base from the others to spread out the area of engagement and prevent friendlies from being bottled up and surrounded. Right now the whole squad will usually run in a single sunderer, and this is good for squad cohesion and organization, but puts all your logistical eggs in one basket.

    I would argue that in single-squad actions, sunderers actually shouldn't be a focus; instead it should be the squad beacon and Valkyrie, which I'll get into later.

    For platoon-level actions, I think the best option is for the armor squad to also run logistics. Primarily because the armor squad is best equipped for defending the sunderers, especially against the lone magrider that usually pops out to destroy everything set up around a base. Normally I'll see 3-5 MBT's and 2 sunderers in a TG armor squad; I would suggest that for initial logistics deployment, the MBT gunners actually grab sunderers first and get them deployed, then hop back in their respective tanks. This allows the squad full flexibility without sacrificing any performance.

    Also important in other situations are layers of sunderer deployments, so that if NC forces get pushed back from the area, they can absorb and attrit the push over the terrain, which can actually be very effective in stopping a zerg. I'd even go so far as to say it's the best way to stop a zerg. This is where cloaked Sunderers really come in handy.



    Squad Beacons and Valkyries:
    This is where I think the focus should be for squad logistics when there isn't a platoon running. First and foremost: I notice TG squad leaders often neglect to deploy their beacons, and when they DO put them down, they are in easy to reach locations and very quickly destroyed by the enemy. Often a beacon gets put down as a battle is occurring, rather than before it does. To improve logistics, I'd suggest SL's initially deploy as a light assault: First this will help you remember to deploy the beacon to begin with; second, it lets you find some place really high up to put the beacon - the higher the better, because out of sight is out of mind, and most defenders won't even spend 30s jumping up to take out a beacon on a tower.

    On top of a beacon being placed, there should be a dedicated Valkyrie pilot/gunner pair. For a full squad, you'll need two valks for the initial deployment, but you'll only want one providing logistics/CAS. The purpose of the valkyrie is primarily to act as a squad spawn - flying over the base to drop people off. This takes some pressure off the squad beacon which can have a pretty slow recharge after someone's initial spawn-in. Secondary to providing logistics, the valkyrie is there to provide close air support where possible (Using the CAS 14 E in an anti-infantry role). The Valkyrie pilot and gunner can thus alert the rest of the squad of enemy forces in the area, engage those forces where possible - including harassing them before they can reach the squad - as well as proactively engage enemy logistics should they happen to deploy, by dropping off an engineer, light assault, or heavy assault to take care of it.

    The benefit of a valkyrie is also that it's a MUCH smaller and faster target. It doesn't get prioritized like a galaxy will, it can easily slip away to cover for repairs, it can still provide CAS, and most importantly it's maneuverable and small enough that it can get the squad to locations that would be difficult for a galaxy to reach, or reach quickly, and keeps squad deployments completely unpredictable. The enemy can't bottle the squad up when you can deploy anywhere in the base that you feel like. Nor can a lone magrider destroy your only logistics option. This gives us a lot more tactical flexibility.



    Galaxies:
    These are great, but I feel they're extremely under-utilized by TG. For starters - on potential hot drops, we never circle the drop point to engage with a bulldog and wipe out defenders on the roof or around the point. Frankly, we should ALWAYS sweep the drop point with bulldogs first, and THEN drop, AND a bulldog gunner should stay with the galaxy after drop to provide CAS until it becomes too dangerous for the galaxy to do so. The only exception to this case should be on emergency drops where flipping the point is more important than a safe insertion. Right now, we pretty much just use them as a transport and nothing more.

    As a potential alternative option to initial valkyrie deployment, and easier to organize, would be initial galaxy deployment with the galaxy providing CAS until the pilot/gunner pair are shot down, and then the two grab a valkyrie and operate as above.
    http://i.imgur.com/Pn1UxKo.png - Tactical Gamer // Planetside 2

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

      Originally posted by Wintermote View Post
      I would suggest that for initial logistics deployment, the MBT gunners actually grab sunderers first and get them deployed, [...]
      Also important in other situations are layers of sunderer deployments
      I second this. Backup sundies may even be left far behind with their 20mn timer.

      Originally posted by Wintermote View Post
      The benefit of a valkyrie is also that it's a MUCH smaller and faster target. It doesn't get prioritized like a galaxy will, it can easily slip away to cover for repairs, it can still provide CAS
      That's the point of a Galaxy, though. It draws attention; in my opinion, it's still better to have 2 enemy MAXes and 2 HAs acting as AA in the spawn room than trying to breach the point. Plus, once AA is active, I can't see how a Valk could tank flak and rockets the way a Gal would (and yes, I may sound partial, despite the fact I really like Valks but...well)


      Originally posted by Wintermote View Post
      These are great, but I feel they're extremely under-utilized by TG. For starters - on potential hot drops, we never circle the drop point to engage with a bulldog and wipe out defenders on the roof or around the point. Frankly, we should ALWAYS sweep the drop point with bulldogs first, and THEN drop, AND a bulldog gunner should stay with the galaxy after drop to provide CAS until it becomes too dangerous for the galaxy to do so.
      I love you !

      Ba-dum-tss
      My life before TG http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/Cairbre
      Who cares about stats ? http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/Cairbr

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

        Logistics in Planetside is often reduced in conversation to Sunderers and spawn points, and while important I don't think it's the important issue here. The art of logistics is fundamentally the job of making sure you get the thing you need it where you need it and when you need it; it's a fundamental skill of any human endeavour of scale.

        Our point holds typically would NOT be more robust merely with the introduction of a Sunderer spawn; even a nearby beacon spawn would be questionable. Those spawns aren't very helpful when our point holds are going smoothly because our medics are keeping the squad up and spawning so far away would incur far, far more travel time than its worth. When our point holds are failing, they usually do so all at once as we collapse under the pressure, and in that case the enemy HAS the point and likely has superior numbers; retaking it using local logistics is fairly unlikely.

        What those point holds need is:
        • A reinforcement of the position or a reduction of enemy effective force strength to prevent the hold from breaking
        • Which is typically on the point hold proper
        • At or before the time at which the hold will break


        Staggered Drop Strategy

        Addressing this logistics issue is one of the goals of the staggered drop strategy, though it does it under some odd rationale to cope with the PS2 spawn environment and with a potentially high degree of inefficiency. By no means is it the optimal way of solving this problem. However, the staggered drop strategy is effective because:
        • Not engaging with the entire force from the word go limits the ability of the enemy to redeploy in force, and reduces the enemy's inclination to respond with an appropriately sized force

        • Galaxy drops allow us to drop almost anywhere with speed

        • The emphasis on constant galaxy mobility makes it easy to retask squads

        • Having galaxies already in the air outside the region borders allows for a 20s-30s lag in deployment, which is fast even by Planetside standards

        • Wrangling the entire squad into a Galaxy gives a cohesion boost that allows us to maximize our force at the moment of the drop


        Because of those factors, it represents a fairly effective solution to the problem of maintaining a point hold from an operational level. It's got a ton of downsides, of course:
        • Squads sit idle waiting for deployment. This is obviously an inefficiency.

        • The strategy as practiced does not have provision for on-site spawn logistics. While we're able to operate quite well under that constraint, it limits blueberry support and makes us more vulnerable to attrition and full wipes.

        • Loading up Galaxies and getting to a rally point represents a substantial delay that needs to be taken into account in planning

        • Timing of reinforcements is easy to get wrong, either escalating the fight too quickly or arriving too late and having the point hold break, the original holding force destroyed, and the reinforcements outnumbered and unsupported on the ground.

        • The strategy as practiced is often very shy on force multipliers; MAX units in the drop are often the only ones, and those are sometimes discarded for speed when deploying into an in-transit Galaxy.

        • Idling Galaxies are vulnerable to intercept and disruption, especially during alerts.


        A lot of these issues can be addressed to an extent. Here are some thoughts for that:
        • Use Galaxy overwatch more aggressively, as Wintermote and Cairbre have suggested. This is a force multiplier we don't use enough, though it'll be risky in AA heavy environments.

        • As Wintermote suggested, get beacons into better places. They're awful from a force sustaining perspective and are a method of last resort, but I've seen a lot of point holds fail because the medics caught a bullet and we lost our ability to sustain ourselves. A beacon that survives longer into the fight also provides a last ditch option to retake the room from a proportional enemy force.

        • Integrate Sunderer procurement into the drop plan. If the base is empty or lightly populated, the first squad in can hack a vehicle terminal and put a Sunderer down that way. Otherwise, single squad members from squads should be sent to requisition a Sunderer from nearby bases, where viable (ie, no major battles blocking them) and bring up Sunderers behind the main force BEFORE we get desperate. This has the added benefit of helping blues get into our fight and stick around.

        • Get better at loading up quickly.

        • PLs must plan reinforcement squad transitions to galaxy mobility in advance, and SLs need to be cognizant of their capacity in this regard and keep the PL informed. We can keep troops fighting in critical bases while also making a supported play for another base IF we keep our loading and travel times in mind and correctly anticipate how long the advance force can hold out. This is the hardest, and most crucial thing to learn to do well. If we do this right, we'll have our second squad loading up when the first one is dropping and arriving just as the first one is starting to see resistance, and so on.

        • The latter logistical challenge would be vastly easier if we had good heuristics for estimating these crucial timetables.


        Logistics Fundamentals

        Staggered drops only represent *one* approach to logistics management, and we've got a big need to focus on the fundamentals. The last point there is really the meat of it; our PLs need to be anticipating the needs of the platoon several minutes in advance. If it takes one minute to get airborne, one minute to reach the drop point, and two minutes for the advance force to be met by proportional enemy resistance, then our timetable needs to look like this

        0:00 1st squad loads up
        1:00 1st squad moves out
        2:00 1st squad drops, 2nd squad is moving out
        3:00 2nd squad moving out
        4:00 1st squad at breaking point, 2nd squad drops

        If the second squad is loading up only once the first squad is running into trouble, it's too late to do anything for them. The crucial error was made two minutes earlier.

        Doing this right is HARD, but it's so utterly fundamental and we need to get better at it. There's a reason that there's a saying in warfare like "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics", everything falls apart if you need something now but needed to ask for it yesterday. We in TG are particularily vulnerable to this; groups less interested in maintaining tight cohesion and who are okay with rapid redeployment and zerging their targets have the luxury of fighting in a mostly reactive fashion. Because we like to get our ducks in a row and move out with conventional means, we're perpetually at risk of running late to important engagements. The only way not to run late is to anticipate our needs before we need them.



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

          Something else to add that ISN'T really logistics based: if we want to use local spawns to help our point holds work out, I think the best way to make them effective is to defend in depth. What that means is that instead of focusing our defense on the point proper, we use elements of the attacking force to push aggressively forward from the final point position. If we are defending from a forward position, it is safer to suffer a squad wipe (assuming a local Sunderer) because the loss of that forward position isn't the immediate loss of the base and we'll be able to remuster the squad and push up from the Sunderer in time to rejoin the point hold, especially if we have multiple layers of defense.

          If we don't have local logistics, we have to be more conservative. Forward/supporting elements are still a great idea we need to apply more often, but their positions will be as vulnerable to a wipe as the point proper without supporting logistics.



          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

            Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
            if we want to use local spawns to help our point holds work out, I think the best way to make them effective is to defend in depth. What that means is that instead of focusing our defense on the point proper, we use elements of the attacking force to push aggressively forward from the final point position.
            Are you basically saying that, in the case of a local sundy spawn, we should first focus on making a safe way to the objective for allied forces to pass along, securing choke points and covering them instead of rushing ourselves into the point building, counting on blueberries to distract hostiles ?

            Ba-dum-tss
            My life before TG http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/Cairbre
            Who cares about stats ? http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/Cairbr

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

              Nope, I'm assuming no blue support. I'm saying TAKE the point, then send a squad ahead to hold a defensive position between the enemy spawn and the point proper, or at least in a position that disrupts the approach. A great example is the NE Eisa tech plant satellite; a second squad can be placed on the hill north of the enemy spawn and have a clear line of fire down back of the main bridge to the CP, making an advance through there very difficult.

              The idea is that these forward spawns can be more aggressive and can wipe without causing an immediate failure of the cap; they can use the local sunderer spawn to immediately rejoin the battle and get back to the front before the point hold collapses. Losing the forward position is still obviously a bad thing, but by defending in depth we are able to trade that position for time, forcing the enemy to engage our forward positions before they can even threaten the point hold. It also allows us to set defenses up in a time and place of our choosing instead of having to close ranks around a control point that might be porous and difficult to hold.



              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                I agree very much with pushing forward rather than holding the point.

                Ideally, 1-2 infiltrators hold the point against the odd person who breaks through, the rest of the squad moves forward into better positions and fires on the enemy as they approach. This keeps the squad from getting bottled up and flanked - as the point rooms are actually very easy to attack from multiple directions. And it maximizes the squad's firepower as it can all be directed along a single front, no longer split between two stairways, a balcony, the roof, and windows; or similar. Now the squad is concentrated together and shooting enemy troops moving across relatively open ground.

                If there is one tactic I could change amongst our regular squad leaders, this would be it. Holding the point with an entire squad is, in my experience, largely ineffective compared to taking the fight closer to the enemy spawn and falling back as they push.
                http://i.imgur.com/Pn1UxKo.png - Tactical Gamer // Planetside 2

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                  Either pushing towards the spawn, and/or/then falling back in a layered fashion. Nothing new in the end.

                  Originally posted by Wintermote View Post
                  Holding the point with an entire squad is, in my experience, largely ineffective compared to taking the fight closer to the enemy spawn and falling back as they push.
                  Can't agree more with you... Well, it works when facing scattered, noob, non organized 1-24 forces. 4 organized players are enough, though, to breach a room and wipe a squad.


                  Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
                  There's a reason that there's a saying in warfare like "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics"
                  [LG] Logistical Gamer

                  Ba-dum-tss
                  My life before TG http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/Cairbre
                  Who cares about stats ? http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/player/Cairbr

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                    Originally posted by Garthra View Post
                    Tonight during the AAR logistics came up. I see lots of point holds that almost make it, and would make it with a bit more logistics.

                    I am posing this open questions to get ideas from everyone: How do we better integrate sunderers into our squads?
                    I feel the answer is simple. Bring them.

                    TG seems to be 80% gal drops lately ive observed. I have been having this itch to be in ground crawl squads lately and its not so easy to scratch in our predominate air drop squads over the last few months.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                      .... SO
                      -HERE IS WHAT ILL SAY!!!
                      in regards to all of this
                      Sundies=Better offense
                      Gal's=Better Deffense
                      Valks=Better small offense
                      -What i mean by this is during an alert If we are ahead by a great deal ive noticed that when we are in the lead Its better to have a galaxy up and mobile to quickly reinforce places that need defending, as usually, (Provided its not being camped) the spawn room is a short distance away and we can rally back up much faster.) Gals have become our method of redeploy side, like it or not. However thats not to say its bad in fact its really good and what i wish the rest of the game would start doing instead of redeploy side, (and heavyside but thats for a different time). Anyways Gals are good for these sorts of situations due to the fact that we need to rapidly get to different places and we can guarantee spawn options on the defensesive side.
                      -A note on the staggered drop offense, Its one of my favorite strategies but only useful when you have two or more squads and is limited by how long a base will take to cap and how many squads you have at your disposal to meet the defenses growing numbers.
                      -Another note on the "SL's use LA for beacon placement" YES YES YES YES YES YES! even if you ditch the class right afterwards I cannot express deeply enough how much more effective beacons become when you do this and they don't die literately five seconds from placement
                      -back to the vehicles, Sundies on the other hand become much more effective for offensive roles due to the fact that A. you now have blues that can reinforce you, witch often times will save a squads bacon (Not beacon lol), and B sundies aren't usually quite as obvious as "BWWAAAAAAHHHH" skywale coming through (Sorry Cairbr gals aren't designed for there sneak factor).

                      -Then thers that odd time that you need to attack that base that has 0 reinforcements at the time and you usually want to try and keep the fights relatively small thats were the Valk and beacon placement come in. valks are sneaky enough to pop behind a ridgeline to not get noticed by other players on the ground after the innitial drop, and if you have the right shade of camo can become fairly invisible to other other aircraft in the area (Favorite tactics include parking my valk in the trees on hossin, or hovering with green camo inside a tree on amerish. the other thing too is if the beacon go's down you know have a valkyrie in the area that isnt going to be picked up by sky nights as easily as a vehicle the size of a building. Thus it can remain hidden and closer to the fight without having to go farther back to maintain safety.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                        Originally posted by RaymondScout View Post
                        valks are sneaky enough to pop behind a ridgeline to not get noticed by other players on the ground after the innitial drop
                        So are Gals. In fact, if you are not staying this low and using terrain to mask your ingress and egress, then you are doing it wrong(tm).
                        "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                          1.)I agree staggered defense can be very effective, on many bases with 1 spawn room.

                          But I have seen points lost because blue berries siege the spawn room, and leave the point open for external attack from galaxies, sunderers, or from a second spawn room that blue berries do not siege. There are many bases in the game with teleporters connecting 2 spawn rooms. That configuration was designed by developers to make defense in depth/ spawn room siege ineffective. And it very often does exactly that.

                          The same applies in part to an enemy gal drop - it makes sieging or spreading defense away from the point much less effective.

                          So I simply disagree with the argument holding the point is ineffective. Are there specific circumstances where defense in depth can be more effective? Yes. Is defense in depth/ spawn siege always moRe effective ? No. Because unlike a defensive location anywhere else, a hold on the point cannot be flanked or bypassed by a smart enemy.

                          2.) I see some new/ old ideas here. All it takes is a few people squad leading to try them out. :)
                          Last edited by Garthra; 10-23-2015, 10:08 AM.
                          The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                            If you only have one squad? Sure. But if you have two squads (and especially if you have local spawns) you probably shouldn't be stacking them into the same point building unless the point you're defending is particularly porous or you're a fan of ceding all initiative to the enemy.

                            But none of that really has to do with logistics.



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Logistics Ideas/Brainstorm

                              Starstriker,

                              I agree we are off topic so I will limit my response to that. Good call.
                              Last edited by Garthra; 10-23-2015, 01:45 PM.
                              The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

                              Comment

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