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  • Double Stack Point Hold

    Hi folks,

    I would like to post an info-graphic I worked on in regards to our point hold composition and roles.

    Terms used in the post:
    Double Stack = The most common point hold building with a first floor, a second floor, and a roof.
    Open = The half of the second floor that has an opening to the balcony and/or the more exposed landing and stairs to the roof.
    Closed = The half of the second floor that does not have a opening the balcony, and the less exposed landing to the roof.
    Stairs = Downward stairs pointing to the first floor.
    Roof = Upward stairs pointing to the roof. Not to be confused with "On the roof" which could be a legit callout.



    In discussion with Garthra and Blaxxon, we've started laying the groundwork for a CQB squad composition in regards to a double stack. The basic layout being considered is a dual fire-team and reserve element. So by looking at the graphic we have the following:

    -Fireteam 1 (Spades)
    Engineer (AI Turret, AT Mines)
    Heavy (Shotgun/Jackhammer)
    Heavy (Large magazine, sustained fire)
    Combat Medic (Bubble/C4)

    -Fireteam 2 (Clubs)

    Engineer (AI Turret, AT Mines)
    Heavy (Shotgun/Jackhammer)
    Heavy (Large magazine, sustained fire)
    Combat Medic (Bubble/C4)

    -Reserve Element (Diamonds)
    Rear Engineer (Spitfire or AI Turret, AI Mines)
    Healing Medic (Nano Regen/C4)
    Max Engineer (Spitfire, Recon Darts, AI Mines, Under barrel Smoke)
    Max (AI/CQB)

    Each fireteam is anchored around the engineer's AI turret which in combination with the two heavies should provide an almost unlimited amount of firepower. Looking at the graphics we see that positions 3 & 7, (both heavies) can be on the rotate to cover roof if necessary. The medic of the fireteam should provide a bubble and direct medical support for his fireteam and have flack armor (vs bandoleer).

    The reserve element is optionally comprised of two elements. The first element is a AI/Spitfire engineer and healing medic with grenades. This element would also cover the closed roof section, and provide the essential revive grenades. The second element is a AI MAX with support engineer who will also provide recon darts and an additional spitfire turret. In general thinking the MAX element would cover the balcony/open roof, but in the event there was a strong push the element could shift to whichever side is necessary.

    So in a nutshell that is the general thought, lets please discuss and help formulate a plan. Some things we need to discuss is the specialization of the heavies in regards to armor, guns, implants, etc as well as the general layout for the engineers.

    Thanks
    -TheFatz

    BTW I quickly proofread this, so I am sure everything is wrong.

  • #2
    Re: Double Stack Point Hold

    Awesome info Fatz,we should start testing it on the field.
    The only thing you got wrong is my name :P

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Double Stack Point Hold

      Another set of terminology I've seen used for the double stack building (I believe by 1TR) is instead of "open" or "closed", it's "primary" or "secondary" based off which room has the control point (with that one being primary). You can then make callouts like "primary stairs" or "secondary window" to identify enemies in those specific approaches. I think I like "open" and "closed" better because it doesn't shift depending on layout.

      A point of concern is the windows. They're a low frequency angle of approach, but enemy LA going through them is a substantial disruption that often ends point holds. Three individuals covering each set of stairs might be a little overkill (there isn't a lot of space there and it makes them a little vulnerable to grenades), so maybe two of them could dedicate to covering the stairs full time while the medic and other heavy cover the additional flanks and only move to help at the stairs when they're needed (during a dedicated push).

      Mines seem like something worth considering. Tank mines on the stairs might make sense (especially midway up along the edges) because they're more likely to catch targets worth killing. Since only a MAX can trip it, either a MAX has gotten way too far up the stairs for comfort, or there's a crash coming in and the mine might catch multiple targets. Bouncing betties, on the other, seem completely wasted on the stairs; they'll get triggered by the individuals zerging at the point and go off way too early to be any help when the actual crash comes. I'd place betties instead on the outsides of windows or on the rooftop access stairs, where they'll catch the occasional LAs that cause so much disruption and which are difficult to cover.

      For the stair holding teams, swapping out a heavy for a MAX can be some easy force multiplication. A MAX at the top of the stairs can stop a rush in its tracks, and the fireteam already has an engineer to keep it topped off.

      What are your thoughts on just having the reserve fireteam float? Room holds are often chaotic and unpredictable; having the third team running around putting out fires, covering odd angles in downtime and responding to short term threats instead of dedicated to specific areas seems helpful to me, especially since, by implication, fireteams 1 and 2 are NOT floating and can focus exclusively on their stair holds.

      There's also the lower floor entrances to consider which I'll refer to as the "open lobby" or "closed lobby", based off which second floor room they have stairs too (though it also nicely describes the rooms themselves). The open lobby has two doors to the outside, while the closed lobby has only one and a better view of the opposing stairs from the hallway. Making use of these gives us an opportunity to defend in depth and disrupt enemy rushes from forming up.

      In the past, when I've had two squads for a room hold, I've placed the second squad downstairs in the closed lobby. This means that the team upstairs doesn't have to watch the closed stairs at all (just the roof and window in that room), allowing a stronger defense of the open stairs and/or better coverage of the alternate 2nd floor and rooftop entrances. The second squad has only the door and the hallway to cover downstairs. In many bases that door is a lower traffic entrance as well. Meanwhile, that hallway position, if locked down with a couple engineer turrets and/or a MAX, is a very strong choke point and gives a clear view into the open lobby room. The second squad can use that to harass anyone attempting to run up the open stairs and draw attention away, and nobody can safely group up in the open lobby for a push up the stairs without standing in a crossfire.

      For lower population fights, sending a fireteam downstairs to hold the closed lobby might make sense for giving the entire defense a little more depth and making the building as a whole more tightly locked down. I wouldn't want to send only four people down in a big fight, though, that'd be a good way to have them wiped by a sudden rush with no hope of a revive.

      Those are my initial, rambling thoughts, hopefully helpful!



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Double Stack Point Hold

        Quick innitial thoughts
        Perhaps engineers on the stairs are able to use there turrets best from the direct middle of the entryway and have both heavies on Either Side, This allows the heavies to pull back into the portable cover of the turret if they take too much fire as well as give them a means to reload and pop a med kit if needed. though I think the ability for them to pop back to cover isnt too difficult as is... though I think the diagram above is what fire teams were composed of and were there placed as opposed too the direct setup of them.

        I also think everyone should know this by now... but sticking just a hair off the entry ways, but still enough to see the bottom, will minimize exposure to fire while maximizing our ability to return fire.

        Also I think if we notice a quirk in a base say the northern most tower base right before you get to the bio lab (The name escapes me), we may consider a readjust. Here the towers landing pads and close proximity to the double stack makes any class "Even a Max" able to jump down and attack at a similar angle to a Light assault.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Double Stack Point Hold

          I'm not sure where the best positions are for guarding the stairs. The corner is obviously the safest, least exposed position with the smallest exposure to the lower floor, and standing far enough back from the stairs that crouching will cut line of sight makes the other parts usable, albeit a bit awkwardly.

          I'd be interested to know where grenades are most likely to bounce when thrown from the bottom of the stairs and which positions are the most vulnerable to them. I'm inclined to think that the engineer's turret should be placed in whatever position is least likely to have a grenade land on it, since grenades are one of the biggest threat to you on the mana turret and you have less ability to dodge grenades in that position without giving up effectiveness. Without that data, I'd be inclined to put them on the side of the stairs closest to the corner to make it difficult for enemy heavies to lob rockets at it; if our own heavies are covering from the far end of the entry, then those heavies should be shot before they can actually line up on the turret.



          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Double Stack Point Hold

            This looks really promising Fatz. Flak armor(or whatever the one that stops grenades is called) and resist for Heavies seem to be the best fit for these situations. I say we try this out and then go back to the drawing board once we've seen this in action.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Double Stack Point Hold

              Originally posted by starstriker1 View Post
              Without that data, I'd be inclined to put them on the side of the stairs closest to the corner to make it difficult for enemy heavies to lob rockets at it; if our own heavies are covering from the far end of the entry, then those heavies should be shot before they can actually line up on the turret.
              My view is turret should be on the far left of the stairway (closest to the exterior wall, furthest from the center of the 2nd floor doorway. My reasoning is that the far left means the turret will be the first thing an enemy sees if he tries to "slice the pie" on the stairs. Otherwise enemy can slice the pie to take out one or two heavies. The turret will be able to shrug off most gunfire. This removes the slow "slice the pie" threat entirely, leaving the rush, grenades and other threats.

              I agree with SlyfoxV, we need real experience, but not quite yet. I agree various tactics appear good in theory, and real world tests tell you the truth. A few tests may better reveal what is effective. However, we need a bit of training, a session or two at least, so that we give the tactic a fair shake. An untrained greek phalanx is not a proper phalanx, and thus does not show what a trained one can do.
              The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Double Stack Point Hold

                Something else to consider is implant choice.

                Lately, I've been seeing the VS use A LOT of emp/flash/concussion grenades, along with the standard frags. With several medics roaming around, squad members could ditch the Regen implant and pick up Clear Vision, EMP Shield or even Battle Hardened.

                Once we shake the bugs out of this defensive tactic, we could start looking at how to deploy multiple squads to the Double Stack for those 48-96 pop fights. Layered defenses, tactical withdrawals, smoke nades.. I'm getting all tingly just thinking about it.

                sigpic


                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Double Stack Point Hold

                  I had a question from one player about room defense and where to position himself when defending what I call a “triple” building. (Rectangular building with ground, second, and roof level.)
                  I am bumping this thread so any newcomers to the forum will see this. In addition, here is a good post on defending doors or kill zones.
                  Together the two good posts which together cover the topic pretty well.
                  The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Double Stack Point Hold

                    This is fantastic. Congratulations for this work, all of you!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Didn't see this until Garthra made the training about it tonight, so I'm a bit late, but I thought I'd make a "better" (no offense ^-^') info-graphic so we get a proper idea of distances and proportions, and see where windows are precisely.

                      Now, as a medic, my only concern is that you're placing all the medics in quite exposed positions. To remedy that I would at least place number 9 on the other side of the doorway. That side usually have consoles and better cover in general.


                      sigpic
                      "Keep calm and wait for the medic."
                      {45 270 lives saved}

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've modified the image a little bit: https://i.imgur.com/uBrIDR1.png

                        The black box is the safest place in the building; this is where the medics should be. The only danger in the black box comes from grenades, and enemies peeking through windows or coming down the stairs from the roof.

                        It also maximizes medic coverage and minimizes medic travel time, allows medics to revive people covering the stairwells from behind cover, and the medics can take out anyone flanking from the top floor stairwell. Medics can also very easily slip from one room to the other to get more cover or escape danger quickly. There is no need to split medics between fireteams here - so long as the medics stay (mostly) in the black box, they're good.

                        On Indar Com Array, the portion of the balcony closest to the point (Top left corner of the balcony in the image) can actually contest/flip it, and the railing provides a lot of cover against enemy infantry coming out of the Indar Com Array spawn room. Indar Com Array should have 1-3 guys on that balcony with long-range weapons - you can easily stymie an entire squad from there - while contesting the point.
                        http://i.imgur.com/Pn1UxKo.png - Tactical Gamer // Planetside 2

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