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Smoke + breaches ...?

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  • Smoke + breaches ...?

    -So Ill just preface this with something I noticed. The base was the one just to the west of the crown(Cant remember the name). I was running a squad and the nc was popped 50/50. with maybe a slight tolerance toward the enemies. Normally Im running flashbangs, but I had had smokes with me instead due to a specific perpouse, from earlier in the night and I forgot to switch, so when me and my squad, were trying to get our friendlies to breach, I accidentally chucked a smoke, into the enemies thinking it was a flash bang. As far as im aware general consensus is to like, not, as it hinders your team just as much as it helps your team. Though something interesting happened, When I chucked the smokes, it appeared as though there were significantly less friendly casualties, when everyone rushed the room. I have a bit of a theory here.

    -Planet-side 2 has a split second delay... and long story short it means that it favors the attacker or the person coming right around the corner. It also means that the person that rounds a corner will see his enemy first. I think what happened is that the smoke cloud obscured the defenders vision, and because we "the attackers, were entering that smoke cloud, we were seeing the defenders before they saw us resulting in less casualties on our end. Of course in real life it usually favors the person thats defending but this is planet-side. Of course all this success could have been in relation to other factors, But still Id like to do a bit of theory crafting. thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

    I don't think smoke changes the latency dynamic, which as you note favours the attacker with a split second of additional information and time to react.

    There might still be something to smoking a room, though. Both sides will be hampered by not being able to see their targets, but I think that actually favours the attacker because the attackers need to clear the funnel at the door. Scattering and obscuring the defender's view of that door (essentially limiting most of them to targeting enemies that have been spotted) means they can't focus fire on it, and that gives the attackers time to enter and get clear of the most dangerous part of the room. Smoke also increases the confusion of the fight, which again is more of a problem for defense than offense.

    There's also a big opportunity to use thermal sights to gain a massive advantage in a smoked room. Since you'll be attacking, you've got more of an opportunity to choose the gear and circumstances of the fight, so if you've planned it out right you can have a squad breach with night vision optics in the smoke. An important twist there is that MAX units do not benefit from thermal sights, so a MAX heavy defense might be a little more vulnerable in this situation (and MAX breaching units will likewise be blind save for spotted targets). If you do have IRNV in this situation, spot your targets so that everyone else can fire on them!

    Interesting faction specific wrinkle is that the NC MAX is not only at home at the short range smoke encourages, but the Aegis shield is going to render brightly through the smoke. That makes an NC MAX pushing through smoke a gigantic bullet magnet; a good thing for everyone behind them, and with the shield up they can take it! While everyone is shooting the big bright shield, the rest of the squad can clean up.

    Finally, on the same note, all transparent particle effects are going to show up as highly visible in the smoke. That means that using heavy shields, medic heal/revive, LA jetpacks or any other effect that puts particles around your player model (for instance, getting shot) will light you up like a Christmas tree. Be very cautious using these tools in a smoke-aided breach, in particular AOE medic heals which highlight everyone affected!

    My thoughts on smoke in a breach are that it very slightly benefits the attacker, because impaired vision and a chaotic environment are slightly more dangerous for a static defender, but the real benefit in a breach is that you can come in prepared for the smoke where the defenders are unlikely to have the right equipment.



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    • #3
      Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

      -If I recall correctly the defense might have been slightly max heavy so that may have had something to do with it. Though id like to think obscuring the defenses vision of a choke point is what made that result. Also in the smoke cloud when breaching you can still see your foes in shotgun ranges, even lacking thermal sights. When your rushing that cloud, the attacker knows hes probably going to get close to people and have to dispatch them where as the defender has this moment of "SUPRISE OH SHOOT THERE IN MY FACE".

      -On that note though I think I will start running smokes for my cqb la, at least in my own personal squads as, it appears to benefit our team. Of course its nothing drastic, but it still seems more effective than flashbangs, as those seem to be only good for breaching a small room with 2 to 3 people in it, as the radius is just too small.

      -Interesting point you brought up about the nc max unit as, he can get into those shotgun ranges easier, where enemies start to appear inside the smoke cloud, not to mention eating bullets on the way in. to let our friendlies through.

      -Another point too is that those particle effects are showing up for us as well as for our enemies and during a breach, when defenders are dying and maxes are repping and bright neon power ranges (COUGH COUGH) I mean heavies, are using there shields to stay out for longer, to cover reses and stuff, then I see that advantage/disadvantage as equalling out. Though I think ill recommend NV optics for everyone in my smoke breaching jobs to run nv because it provides significant benefit.

      ... Now weres my rocket rifle... sigh

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      • #4
        Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

        I think this is a great idea - I've also noticed that smoke is very good at making a breach successful, both on the sending and the receiving end.

        I think it's because it does have a severe impact on the enemy's target acquisition. When a room is smoked, they can't immediately tell if they're looking at an enemy player or not, and players far enough away in the smoke disappear altogether. You have to rely on Q-spotting to make intelligent firing decisions. It all introduces delay. Furthermore, the smoke makes it possible for more players to slip through without being seen - defenders tend to focus on the first target, and if the next couple guys get in there without being noticed they start adding weight of fire to the attacking side, and usually from flanking positions against the defenders as the attackers move into and around them.

        Smoke also tends to work really well with shotguns, as it's a little easier to get into shotgun range without being shot.
        http://i.imgur.com/Pn1UxKo.png - Tactical Gamer // Planetside 2

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        • #5
          Re: Smoke + breaches ...?


          1.) LA can pack smoke hand grenades and rifle fired grenades, giving them greatest ability to desploy smoke, and carry more of it between reloads/rekits.
          2.) Smoke grenades can be bounced into rooms in places where the rifled launcher is ineffective.
          3.) Combining the hand thrown and rifled grenade can create 2x the time of smoke because the time delay on the hand grenade is almost perfect for chaining the two together. The combo allows a properly equiped LA to deploy a larger or longer lasting screen. By the time two smoke screens are done, the room should be clear, or you are all dead.
          4.) LA maneuverability can be used to deploy smoke in distracting ways or through windows that may allow greater safety, or distraction than ground based.
          See video showing these points.
          The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

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          • #6
            Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

            Some thoughts:

            1) I'm a little torn on whether the point of entry or deeper into the target room is the best place for smoke. On one hand, it's easier to smoke the target entry (the most important part to conceal), and it'll provide some cover against attacks on you while stacking up. On the other hand, that smoke on the exterior also masks anyone who sneaks up on your group or charges the door while you're stacked, and inside the room the smoke boundary creates a zone that you'll cross where the enemy has good eyes on you but you're still disoriented.

            I think on balance, it's much better to get the smoke as far into the room as possible. The benefits of smoke on the exterior are dubious (or even counterproductive), and the further in it is the more disoriented the defenders will be.

            2) Smoke NEEDS to be called by the SL, or at least signaled beforehand by the person doing this. If you pop smoke in close quarters without the squad being ready for it, you can badly hamper the squad. Losing situational awareness suddenly is bad.

            3) Underbarrel smoke launchers can be a little unwieldy, but in a ground floor breach I'd argue that they shouldn't be fired from the corner of the door anyways, but from further back, more face-on with the door where you can angle it into the back wall. Sometimes the situation doesn't allow an angle like that, but it's usually pretty safe.

            4) I don't see a huge win in layering the smoke grenade and the underbarrel smoke. The amount of smoke in the room isn't super important, because a single grenade will fill it fairly effectively and it achieves everything you'd want it to without having to layer it.

            5) I like that use of smoke grenades for the rooftop breach; in particular there, because the attackers rarely expect an attack from the roof in the first place, and the smoke will further confuse their response to it.

            6) This is more of a general breaching thing, but I'm starting to feel like the tight, back to back stack against the door we've trained on a lot is a little situational; in this game, the risks of exposing yourself to the periphery of the fatal funnel are lower because of lower lethality and quick medic pickups. At the same time, with the fast pace and penchance for solo players to flank and harass aggressively, stacking up tightly on the door puts us at huge risk for a sudden flank, vehicle attack, or C4 drop from above.

            Instead, I'm starting to prefer a loose stack on the door, maintaining spacing of the squad and covering more angles. It has the added bonus of allowing you to maintain pressure via suppressing fire through the door, preventing the enemy inside from gaining initiative and doing something unanticipated.



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            • #7
              Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

              -I volunteer as tribute for the light assault smoker *raises hand
              -Ive also been experimenting publicly (Non Squad) with smokes and I can definitely say that the further into the cluster of defenders you can get that smoke the better. I suspect that this is because, it makes room navigation more difficult for the enemy, on top of making it more difficult for medics to find dead players, defenders to see out of and keep an adequate bead on a a chokepoint, and engineers to be able to find maxes to repair. I also think that (while not for us) a chaos based offense for a room attack tends to be better, for public players for the offense as opposed to defense. basically by tossing smoke into the defenders when I charged the room I felt as though I was doubling the distance gained to get close to the enemy. I really feel as though having difficulties seeing where a chokepoint is, as opposed to knowing but not seeing the enemies come through the choke point is superior.

              -also of course you should never pop smoke unless asked by sl.

              On point number 4 star id actually argue that depending on the room your entering you may want the smoke of either 1 2 or sometimes even 3 grenades, the room with both the skinny and fat stairs being one of them (I believe its called a double stack, whereas garthras example building one may be adequate and the second one could be launched into the overhead room.

              -I also believe suppressors or flash hiders should definitely be a recomendation when you know your doing smoke ops, because, it gets you noticed way quicker without. (This is from raw in the field experimentation)

              -As far as my preference goes, I prefer the hand thrown grenades because often times, The "Sticky" smoke factor of the launcher proves to be a hinderance, and often times the added distance of the launcher, isnt any more significant than that of the hand thrown, plus the ability to deploy hand thrown grenades by bouncing them, makes for much more survive ability.


              In regards to the loose "stack" I feel as though Timing is the most important part in making your move into that building. Friendly and enemy reinforcements come in waves, and if you dont take the right wave than your breach is destined to fail. So even if A few squad members arent right next to that door with me ready to move in, Id rather ride the wave than wait for an extra two people, and besides they can still come in after us and support the push. (Im not talking on the other side of the base and unorganized, im talking a second or two behind.)

              Either way smokes dont randomly make blues push, they still need that spearhead witch is our squad, Proxy chat really helps too.

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              • #8
                Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

                Originally posted by RaymondScout View Post
                -I also believe suppressors or flash hiders should definitely be a recomendation when you know your doing smoke ops, because, it gets you noticed way quicker without. (This is from raw in the field experimentation)
                Agreed, I've done a lot of smoke ops in the past and hiding the muzzle flash helps a LOT in the smoke. The enemy will still see tracers, so if you stay in one place shooting they will probably start tagging you after a burst or two, and then your shield will give you away. However, tracers are harder to source back to their origin than the muzzle flash, so there's a real gain to be had there.

                Also, suppressors don't do any harm to you in the smoke at the short ranges involved, and the suppressed sound + no minimap marker also aid in keeping your position and intent masked.

                Suppressors plus IRNV are an awesome combo for hitting an enemy position covered in smoke!



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                • #9
                  Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

                  Anyone willing to take some time with me and experiment with this? Comparing how visible people are with suppressors vs without when coming through smoke? Just need one or two people. Can be ad hoc.
                  The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

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                  • #10
                    Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

                    -yeah sure if you want whenever im on feel free but i cant guarantee a time slot

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                    • #11
                      Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

                      Sure any time, as you noticed the other day, I mostly run with suppressor and smoke on my Engineer 'even for long range' :)

                      (6..~)Z Z z z....

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                      • #12
                        Re: Smoke + breaches ...?

                        I've been a proponent of smoke since PR 0.8. :) And therefore, I still have it underslung on both my Medic and Engi here in PS2. I'll help any time, of course, I'm rarely on these days...
                        "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw



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