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  • DKP system

    I know Arkamis was going to start this thread, but since he hasn't, I will. I'd like to start with Koodos to everybody involved with the implementation of this system. I can see all the hard work and time involved with putting this all on paper and making it so interactive to all of us. Thank you very much.

    I only have one gripe with the system. The class limitation and priority part. We have had a Need/Greed system in the past, which I think has worked well. Each toon has it's strengths and weaknesses based on specs, gear, and player attitude. To prioritize items based soley on class is not fair to everyone. A "caster sword" might come up, and not be available to a pali because there are better "pali swords" out there. If this pali spends most of his time healing and casting, he should be able to roll on the sword. Likewise, a Balance Druid, who never comes out of moonkin form is a great asset to the damage casters of the party, yet would have little use for a +healing item they have #1 priority on, and excellent use for a +arcane damage item they are pushed to #2 on.

    My solution to this is to open every item up to need/greed. Take the class restrictions off completely. People don't want to waste their DKP on stuff they can't use, and we have a fair-minded team here, for the most part. When an Item comes up, ask :Who Needs this item. People who need this item will respond in raid chat. The person who has the highest DKP of those who respond gets the item, and a roll-off of those who are tied may be neccessary. If nobody needs the item, it is open to greed, and then DE. If a pali states need on an item, and one of the main tanks needs the item, I think in most cases the pali will defer, because that main tank keeps him alive by playing his part the best he can. On the other hand, that pali might feel that they are called upon to tank often and would greatly benefit the guild by getting that item for themselves. This should be his perogative. Telling someone that they will forever have low priority on an item they are really trying for will only foster bad feelings and urge them to find a guild with an open DKP system. This means, yes, feral druids might be able to go for the Nightslayer set if that is what they feel will benefit them the most, or a Tanking Ring.

    Officers on a run will always have the power to override the system if they feel it is completely out of line. And nobody should be able to spend DKP on an item they will not be able to use as a need roll. BoE should be open to everyone on the greed roll section, as everybody can use money to get things they really need.

    Just my lowly $.02 :)
    Anahlahna and Friends

  • #2
    Re: DKP system

    Originally posted by Anah
    I know Arkamis was going to start this thread, but since he hasn't, I will. I'd like to start with Koodos to everybody involved with the implementation of this system. I can see all the hard work and time involved with putting this all on paper and making it so interactive to all of us. Thank you very much.

    I only have one gripe with the system. The class limitation and priority part. We have had a Need/Greed system in the past, which I think has worked well. Each toon has it's strengths and weaknesses based on specs, gear, and player attitude. To prioritize items based soley on class is not fair to everyone. A "caster sword" might come up, and not be available to a pali because there are better "pali swords" out there. If this pali spends most of his time healing and casting, he should be able to roll on the sword. Likewise, a Balance Druid, who never comes out of moonkin form is a great asset to the damage casters of the party, yet would have little use for a +healing item they have #1 priority on, and excellent use for a +arcane damage item they are pushed to #2 on.

    My solution to this is to open every item up to need/greed. Take the class restrictions off completely. People don't want to waste their DKP on stuff they can't use, and we have a fair-minded team here, for the most part. When an Item comes up, ask :Who Needs this item. People who need this item will respond in raid chat. The person who has the highest DKP of those who respond gets the item, and a roll-off of those who are tied may be neccessary. If nobody needs the item, it is open to greed, and then DE. If a pali states need on an item, and one of the main tanks needs the item, I think in most cases the pali will defer, because that main tank keeps him alive by playing his part the best he can. On the other hand, that pali might feel that they are called upon to tank often and would greatly benefit the guild by getting that item for themselves. This should be his perogative. Telling someone that they will forever have low priority on an item they are really trying for will only foster bad feelings and urge them to find a guild with an open DKP system. This means, yes, feral druids might be able to go for the Nightslayer set if that is what they feel will benefit them the most, or a Tanking Ring.

    Officers on a run will always have the power to override the system if they feel it is completely out of line. And nobody should be able to spend DKP on an item they will not be able to use as a need roll. BoE should be open to everyone on the greed roll section, as everybody can use money to get things they really need.

    Just my lowly $.02 :)
    Thanks for your thoughtful post. As I see it, zero-sum DKP system is more "fair" than need/greed since there aren't enough end-game items from large raids to evenly distribute the gear in a pure need/greed system. Zero-sum puts recent winners at the back of the line for items with those that are still looking at the front of the line. Continued participation moves you back to the front of the line.

    As far as item preferences go, there may be room for improvement, but the existing priorities are the result of a lot of thinking and work already. In your example, if a normal priority for a weapon would be warrior first, then warriors should get priority (IMO). If the warriors already have it, or don't want to spend the DKP on it, then it would go to the next on the priority list. We rely on our prior decision about class need more than your faith in the good will of players. If everyone acted as you suggested, then we wouldn't need a DKP system. It isn't that you're wrong, but I can point out numerous instances of epic gear going to first time, non-guild raid attendees when such gear would have been a significant upgrade for the guildies. That's the downside of need/greed that our DKP system is created to adddress.

    We are intentionally trying to implement a system that WON'T require officer intervention.

    We don't pretend our system is perfect, so we always want input or ideas. We're so new at this that we don't have sufficient experience to say that our system won't work and needs to be changed. Classes that can fill multiple roles (pally and druid) logically have more concern about class priority for items.
    Beep


    Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: DKP system

      If a Feral Druid claims need for Nightslayer and is awarded it over rogues because they have more DKP then I'm pretty sure quite a few people would hearth out or quit to look for a better system.

      Mostly because Nightslayer has a niffty "Class: Rogue" restriction that makes it utterly useless to a druid other than DE trash or some vendor food.


      Lets play both sides of the fence:

      Priority System - Emphasizes the 'best at' aspect of each class so that items are awarded upgrades that would improve their performance and/or contribution to a raid. Example: priests should concentrate on healing so they need +healing gear instead of going shadowform and trying to DPS. Therefore +healing gear would be defered to priests and +shadow would be defered to warlocks. Why? Not because the priest can't go shadowform and DPS like a warlock, but because if they step over into the roll of a warlock then you still need someone to fill the roll of the priest. Why not just get a warlock to act like a warlock and a priest to act like a priest?

      Things are pretty clear cut for some of the classes. Hunters shoot pointy things at something till it falls down. Rogues poke pointy things at something till it falls down. Mages cast spells that make the peoples fall down. Warlocks hex things until they fall apart.

      Others get pretty murky, but we all know what we'd like to see. A priest can do decent DPS and assist warlocks with shadow, but we'd really perfer that they heal because they're better at healing than anyone else. A warrior could start using berzerker stance and deathwish to put out massive DPS while dual wielding, but we'd rather see them tank with a sword and board because they are better at it than anyone else.

      Then you have the hybrid classes that could do a number of things decently, but not outstandingly well:

      A protection paladin could tank, but not as well as a tanking warrior. A retribution paladin could dps, but not as well as a dpsing warrior either. A holy paladin could heal, but not as well as a priest. Subpar tanking, subpar DPS, and subpar healing. Since healing is always good, we perfer they heal while adding what DPS they can. Therefore, you see paladins healing and decursing more than spaming Judgement of Command because it frees up the priests and druids from decursing so they can concentrate on healing.

      A feral druid could tank in bear or DPS in cat, but not as well as a warrior or rogue in endgame. A balance druid could DPS, but definately not as well as mage or warlock. A restro druid could heal, but not with the speed and versitility as a priest. We have plenty of classes with the sole purpose of DPSing so having a druid dedicated to adding subpar DPS is counterproductive when you could have a decent healer instead. That's why most raids perfer the druids aid the priests with healing instead of joining the ranks of DPS orientated classes.

      A priority system is designed to benefit the RAID, not the individual. If given a choice between awarding an item that's the best for a certain class or subpar to another, the priority goes to twinking out as many people in as few raids as possible.

      Giving +healing to a healing priest or druid will impact their heals more than giving them +damage.

      Want/Need - Everyone has a 'wish list' of things they want to suplement their own unique style of game play. A balance druid (oomkin) wants +damage gear more than +healing gear because they want to spam moonfire and starfire. A retribution paladin wants +strength and +crit items more than +healing or +intel because they want to be a critadin and push themselves on the damage meters. A caster hunter wants +damage/healing items so they can increase their arcane shot and serpent sting damage to change up their shot rotation. What items they roll for and get benefit them because they want them to and not because of classical roles or 'best at' titles.

      On the one hand it makes some people happy. They put their time into the raids and get what they want out of it. On the other hand it makes a lot of people unhappy. They put their time into the raid as well and get to see items thought of as better suited for their class going to someone else on their whim without a noticable impact on their raid performance.

      If a priest wins over a warlock on +shadow damage, but still does nothing but heal during the raid then what impact has that +shadow damage item given to the raid as a whole by being awarded to the priest?



      Personally I'm still waiting for the 'updated' DKP system to be posted so I can look over it and poke at it some more. Apparently the current DKP on the forums is outdated and has chunks of it completely wrong or unspecific.
      My sanity is not in question...
      It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


      Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: DKP system

        I like items having class priority. That is one of the most important things to me as far as fairness is concerned.

        I don't know about melee stuff, but as a caster it's frustrating when class priority isn't in place.

        For example, [item]Sorcerous Dagger[/item].

        Say this drops in MC. Any mage/lock will tell you, that's very much a mage/locks wet dream of a weapon. In the past, I've seen this drop with open rolls for mages/locks/druids/priests, and if pallies could USE daggers, they'd be able to roll on it too. I've seen it done with some off-hands that have dropped in MC. Assuming you have a full 40 man, we're talking at least 12-15 people wanting something. So if you're at the back of the line, you have to wait through 15ish people. Depending on drop rates, that could be 15 runs. You could be running MC for a month and a half before you even get ONE item, ... then once you do, you could potentially go another month or so before getting something else. The point is, in order to gear up people appropriately, the classes/specs that will get the most use of said item should have priority. If they all pass and you want to make it an open roll then, that's fine. But if you're trying to gear people up to have more end-game success, class priority (IMHO) is necessary.

        Going a month and a half running MC to get one item doesn't seem worth it to me. Because, as greedy as it may sound, people are in MC to get better gear. After 60, that's a main focus of the game, there's no denying it.

        Again, this is just my opinion on the matter. I just remember getting frustrated when everyone and their brother could roll on an item that seemed to be specifically tailored for only a few classes.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: DKP system

          You all better be glad hunters can't heal...Hell, we STILL might roll for +healing gear ;)

          Hunters roll for everything!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: DKP system

            *eyes Altor* We can heal. Its a spell called Mend Pet, and while handy for solo elite tanking, that's hardly the point.

            Actually, with sufficient +damage gear a hunter can increase their DPS by a substancial amount by replacing Aimshot with Arcane Shot in their shot rotation. This is possible because Arcane Shot gets 43-48% of +damage value (Volley, Mend Pet, and Serpent Sting all get 100%). What causes the DPS increase is the removal of the 3 second cast that aimed shot requires in order to increase your yellow damage with regular shots (yeah, autoshoot is a spell and thus does 'physical spell damage') since arcane is instant and can be dropped to a 5 second cooldown.

            If you browse through the hunter forums there are some rather bored endgame hunters doing farm runs through BWL in cloth items and caster gear who get 2000-3000 damage per arcane shot. Of course, the fact that the mobs they're bragging their large numbers with have arcane vulnerability might have something to do with that. I wouldn't mind having a Serpent Sting that ticks for 300+ damage though.

            +Damage/healing is also useful for long kites since our two kiting tools (Serpent Sting and Arcane Shot) benefit from such stats.


            Of course this is all pretty much moot. Does +damage/healing benefit hunters? Yeah, but in the same way that the Lightning Reflexes talent benefits hunters...only when you have a crap load of it. Should a hunter be able to roll on +D/H items with casters? Hell no.
            My sanity is not in question...
            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: DKP system

              Originally posted by Altor
              You all better be glad hunters can't heal...Hell, we STILL might roll for +healing gear ;)

              Hunters roll for everything!

              What da ya mean I heal my pet all the time....:madsmile:
              "they're more like guidelines, than actual rules,"....Captain Barbossa - Pirates of the Caribbean

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: DKP system

                I seem to be in the minority again, which is fine. I wasn't suggesting that we go to need/greed, but that with the existing DKP system, need/greed could replace the class priority system.

                The point I'd like to expand on a bit is yes, druids don't heal as well as preists, dps as well as rogues, or tank as well as warriors - part of this could be due to gear - they can't get the best of any of it. That Shadow priest we took to Ony significantly added to the damage warlocks were doing. That Balance Druid we took to MC helped the mages out. We have used Kemo, Lyc, and Ark as tanks. Want to bring a priest on a 45minute Baron run? These other classes have other options. A Shadow Priest with tons of +shadow and damage gear and improved vampiric aura could also do a significant amount of healing to thier group (even in shadow form).

                Who are we to say "this is the only useful spec for this class, so we are only going to equip for this spec"? TG has always prided itself on stepping outside the box when it could, but in the case of DPS, they have made a very stiff box with some stuck outside, and others stuck inside. We have come up with the DKP system to be more fair. I agree with and welcome the DPS system, but think that the class limitations are too strict and, in some cases, unfair.
                Anahlahna and Friends

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: DKP system

                  You are not alone in your thoughts, I see where you are coming from. But I also look from the viewpoint of the raid.

                  When raiding, we do not do so in order to twink your player out for 5 man runs. We do it to further support your character in endgame instances. Where each class has an expected duty to perform.

                  First priority is to keep oiling our raiding machine. Second priority is to equip characters with desires.

                  Lets face it, if everyone did what they wanted to do in raids, we'd get nowhere fast. It was honestly painful before DKP to see Might gear go to Arms Warriors before our Tanks. I feel that it lead to problems further down the line.

                  The time will come when we are at a point where we don't need to worry about that, but that time is definately not now.
                  RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

                  Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

                  I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: DKP system

                    When it comes to set pieces, that class should get equal rights no matter what spec you are. The sticky situation comes to cross class items and spec specific items. Ya, everyone might not agree with who can all roll on said items. But let's not be greedy, and look at it from the viewpoint of who will benefit from this item the most and help the RAID out most by getting this item. That is the one thing i love about Reverent and how we handle dkp. Ya you probably have enough points to be uncontested for an item. But to better the raid you should be thoughtful and not ready and see who it will upgrade and benefit the most. That is one thing that will make any guild and raid successful in whatever challenge is in there way.
                    Thunderhorn:
                    70 Night Elf Priest-Lunaar(holy)
                    70 Human Mage-Alava(Fire)
                    70 Night Elf Hunter-Insai(Beast Master)
                    70 Dwarf Paladin-Ginoldor(Protection)
                    70 Human Warrior-Revenged(Protection)
                    70 Draenei Shaman-Tianora(Elemental)
                    70 Draenei Shaman-Fayrel(Restoration)
                    Gilneas:
                    50 Undead Priest-Eikyl(Shadow)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: DKP system

                      Looks like you guys have put some hard work into this system so as to strengthen your guild - good work to all involved.
                      It's always good to see friends progressing well and enjoying success in their end-game experiences :)

                      I have one question though, and I hope that this does not sound too selfish. If/When players like myself come on your MC raids to help with numbers/aussie accents, does the implementation of your new DKP system mean that I will not be in a position to be eligible for any loot? I know that sounds selfish, and believe me something like this would not deter me from coming on your raids whenever I can (I <3 you guys, afterall), but I'm just curious.

                      (hopefully this did not come off sounding selfish, because believe me when I say that is not the intention)

                      Delirium Platoon Leader
                      Fate Squad Leader
                      All round fantastic dude

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: DKP system

                        Oh so you wanna be Greedy Chad, FINE! Take your lewts.

                        heh.

                        Just kidding.

                        Well since you've sadly been unable to attend one of our MC Raids, I'll point you in the direction of our DKP Site. http://www.tacticalsites.com/wowdkp/listmembers.php?s= You'll notice your friend Brano is listed there among the rest of us.

                        There is a stipulation though. We don't want people coming on a single raid with us and buying l33t epix and bailing forever. I am not 100% positive, as I know it has (along with other things) been re-taken in for consideration... but last I heard it was 3 raids before you can spend. I don't generally like saying what I'm not sure about, but It's a response.
                        RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

                        Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

                        I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: DKP system

                          Originally posted by Vinzalf
                          Well since you've sadly been unable to attend one of our MC Raids, I'll point you in the direction of our DKP Site. You'll notice your friend Brano is listed there among the rest of us.

                          On the contrary, i've been on two MC runs with you - just looks as though i havent been on any since the DKP system was implemented :)

                          (Hopefully that is going to change this weekend ;))

                          Delirium Platoon Leader
                          Fate Squad Leader
                          All round fantastic dude

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: DKP system

                            That's what I meant.
                            RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

                            Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

                            I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: DKP system

                              Originally posted by Chadwiko
                              ... to help with numbers/aussie accents

                              :drool:

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