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You do your job and I'll do mine

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  • You do your job and I'll do mine

    I have this bad habit where once I start typing I just keep typing. This is especially true when it comes to topics that are on my mind and relatively current topics.

    Recently there have been some talks about bad PUGs and wishing for guildie runs. Okay, not so recently persay, but in the general time frame of recently.

    Here are some helpful hints on how to make guildie runs fun, fast, and enjoyable.

    1) Guildies are NOT your servants. The people going with you on your runs are VOLUNTEERS and should be treated with respect, more so than people you meet in PUGs. When in a PUG you can make up some half hearted excuse about guild matters and ditch the mess if things are going baddly. In a guild run, you have to consider the fact that short of using /gquit or geting /gkicked you're going to see that person again and somewhat frequently. Some people go because of the bond shared in the guild, others because they consider themselves your friend, some people even go just because they happen to be walking the same way you are. The reasons are different, but you still have to treat your group mates them with respect.

    2) 5 man runs are, in a way, a little harder to do properly than a 20 or 40 man because of the limited class selection and increased work load. Depending on the instance you are expected to do the equililant work of 4 or 8 people in a 5 man run. Be flexible and don't pigeonhole yourself or others. Use your entire repitoire of class skills to the fullest.

    3) Pay attention to the flow of conversation in party chat. Some of it is friendly banter and some is actually relevant to the run. Strategies plotted out a head of time can make things easier as you run a set course...just try not to deviate from that course.

    4) If its not broke, don't fix it. If everything is running smoothly and without any problems then let sleeping dogs lie and just keep going. Start to try and fix things when they go horribly wrong and not before. People tend to branch out and experiment more in instances runs, let them do that.

    5) If you're running with me be mindful of my state of mind. I have 4 easily recognizable states.
    *Happy - This is my default state. I'm having fun, chatting on guild/raid/party chat, and answering questions or comments I see.
    *Concerned - Something is not right and I want to know why. I make comments and jokes about something that can be improved or should be done differently. If I get a response that satisfies my poking around I go back to being happy.
    *Annoyed - Someone is screwing up and screwing up baddly. I've been concerned and your answers aren't the right ones in my book. You're starting to piss me off and better start saying and doing the right things quickly, but no matter what you say I'll still be concerned about your future performance. I've been annoyed with a guildie all of twice so far, in PUGs I can tolerate being annoyed dependant on how far and how much progress we've made in the instance before cutting out. I can usually tolerate it more in zerg runs, but those have been cut back to just LBRS now. If I've been annoyed with someone I try to remember them to warn other off.
    * WTH? STFU! - Its official, you are an idiot. In fact, you may all be idiots in disguise and I just don't know it. I feel like I'm in the minority of people doing things right and the people who I think are doing okay agree with me. At this point my urge to kill has risen to the point where I'm honestly thinking about sabotage. Sometimes I call the leader an absolute idiot and leave, other times I deliberately screw the run over just because I'm so pissed off. This happens and usually with PUGs that go horribly wrong. I've posted about a few of them.

    Good news is that my long term memory is a little dodgy so I'll eventually forget all the bad things till everything is all shiney again.

    Examples of the decline in my mental state:

    Happy: BRD zerg run to get a quest done. We're doing fine and hardly need any healing. I can use my solo/DPS gear and nuke along with everyone else while throwing out the occasional heals. No one has ever died fighting green mobs when they hit 50% health and I doubt they ever will.

    Concerned: Growing resentment from someone else over my ability as a priest to nuke effectively (my smite does 500-600 damage and 700-900 on a crit) and keep the group healed. I use a standard 5 man healing priority list of self, tank, DPS, and support classes. Myself first because I can't heal when I'm dead. The tank second because loose aggro makes my job harder. DPS third because we can always kill things without DPS, just a lot slower. Support classes last because they can heal themselves if need be. There was one death and that was because early damage before the warrior could establish aggro ping ponged aggro to DPS to me and back to DPS where they quickly died. When a support class complained about not getting any heals during a hard accidental 4 group pull where I was focused on keeping the warrior and myself alive I pointed out that druids can heal too. I was then told I was a lousy priest and healers who don't heal are just dead weight. I translated that as "You're right, I can heal too! I should start doing that so I'm not dead weight" so I quickly put the druid out of mind of future heals.

    Annoyed: Druid refused to heal himself and kept pulling aggro and tanking in feral form. I respected his wish to prove he could heal as well as do damage and focused on keeping the rest of the group alive. Druid kept making snide comments and rude remarks towards me and started to neglect his group responsibilities of decursing and buffing the entire group to snub me. He starts to make comments of how bad of a priest I am and he should just kick me from the group. I just chalked it up to his immaturity and continued to let him have his way, I don't have a battle of the wits with the unarmed.

    WTH? STFU!: We finish Jailbreak after an hour and 30 minutes in the instance. Just as I'm about to suggest going to Marshall's and then SW to get the Windsor walk done I'm kicked from the group by the druid with some rude remarks. I hear them talk about doing more of BRD and hearth out to do more of the Ony chain. While doing the Windsor walk the druid rides up and see me in the middle of it and start to make rude comments and wishing I would fail and die so he could do it instead. At this point I considered putting him on ignore. Throughout the night he would start making negative comments whenever I said something on chat. I just ignored the brat and went about my own business.

    Here's a little tip for you. If you think I'm not nice, try and figure out why I'm not being nice before you start complaining about it.
    My sanity is not in question...
    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

  • #2
    Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

    Tarenth, I feel your pain...and I loved your write-up of the issue!

    Thank you again for your contributions to our guild forums! You help elevate us to an interesting, readable site.:row__593:

    At the heart of this are two things:
    1. The likelihood of grouping with some "gems" in PUGs is high. Guildies are a better bet for lots of reasons, though it's been increasingly hard to get dungeon outings for us as we "mature" as a guild.
    2. Playing tactics for a 5 man (or even a 10 man) party require particular care with everyone playing their role well. 5 man instances are some of the most fun I've ever had in WoW. I'm hoping that we can see some epic-level 5 mans with the expansion.

    On the general issue of dungeon running...
    • Anyone who is serious about playing WoW well and being a strong contributor in our 20 and 40 man raids needs both the gear and the experience of dungeon instances...LOTS of them. They were designed for a purpose. In the course of chasing your Tier 0 and .5 sets, you're learning valuable skills for party play. A new level 60 is NOT ready for Molten Core, IMO, without the experience AND the gear from Dungeon running and the high level quests.
    • If we're not raiding, I'd be happy to come along on Beep or Beepster to provide some help for you or any guildie. It'd be helpful for those who seek help to have some forum posting to announce that need. I find it a lot easier to "keep an appointment" than to invent something on the fly. Frankly, I get bored standing around IF, and won't stay in-game very long if I'm bored. Helping someone is way more interesting than watching General Chat.
    • I'm hoping we can set aside some dedicated nights to dungeon-running so that we can avoid conflicts with scheduled raids.
    • I also have a level 54 warrior (arms/fury) who is languishing for lack of company and attention. Olafsson needs some playmates!:row__536:

    Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)


    • #3
      Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

      Very good write up and I too feel your pain...Even I still do pugs and if from the beginning it doesnt seem to work I leave it.(i dont just leave i do give them notice and wait until they find a replacement) ..But its the summer alot of them are kids in a few weeks maybe it wont be so bad...
      Last edited by Ricca; 07-10-2006, 11:40 PM.
      Candrice 63 Warrior
      Ricca 70 Rogue
      Machelle 70 Mage
      Enya 74 Druid


      • #4
        Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

        Hmmm, Olafsson is level 54, Mateo is level 54. Just saying. :row__577:

        You know, I really do not get the substance of this post, as well written, and expressive, as it is.

        Let me explain why.

        First, if anything, those who treat other members of the Guild like crap, as if they are some peon to do their bidding, probably are not mature enough to be here, and are not Tactical Gamer material.

        Direct them to the Primer, tell them to get their buttocks into the forums to read the bits about maturity and respect, and let the class leaders know what these pendejos are doing under their watch.

        Every slot taken by a Tactical Gamer Guild Member that should not be here is one that could go to someone else more deserving. Being part of this Guild is a privilege, and should be treated as such.

        Next, I don't understand how someone could differentiate between a PuG and a Guild run.

        Let me explain that too.

        If I'm in ZF, for example, with a PuG, I am extra careful in what I do, what I say, and how I treat the other players in the run. The one thing I want players to come away with, other than some nice swag, is a sense that Tactical Gamer players are solid citizens.

        We get it done, we do it right, and we treat everyone right. I do not want someone coming away from the run thinking: damn, those TG guys are jerks!

        So, if anything, a Guild member should be MORE attentive to how they act. You should be an example for others, not treating anyone on the server as if they were there for your benefit.

        So that's why I don't understand any of this.


        • #5
          Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

          I try not to ask the impossible of people and I'm rather eccentric and cynical in my way of thinking. ;)

          The difference between a PUG and a Guildie run usually has to do with the reason people join up. If you're doing a PUG then you know that the people are going because they want something out of it. Lets face it, no one joins a PUG out of the goodness of their heart unless they have something to do in the instance you're running. Of course if you ask a friend and they come along because you asked its not really a PUG but more of a small team with some pick ups. Yes, you should treat people in PUGs with respect and give them their head when it comes to manners, but you should also recognize that they're in the group for their benefit. If you walk away with a good feeling on both sides then you have accomplished admirably in your task and shown respect and recieved respect. You spread the good word about TG and everyone is all happy. However, you will pick up some total ashats in your time. These are the ninja looters, the selfish bastards, and the idiots who couldn't lead out of a paperbag let alone through a complicated instance. They treat you like is a privilage to be in their run and so you should bow down to their whim. This is where people get a bad taste in their mouth and where the stigma against PUGs stems. At these times you should recognize that if the respect you give isn't being given back then no matter how nicely you act you won't get a good opinion when you walk away. People tend to want to get things done fast and efficiently. If you start to menader around and waste time, they may just pack up and leave because you aren't proceeding at the pace they want. PUGs are a fickle thing and a beauty to see done right, you just have to find one done right.

          If you're doing a guild run then the reasons start to blur a little bit and this is where I started off my post. Some may have a reason for going, but others will go just because you asked it of them. They are volunteers with the only reason for going because you asked it of them. It is a privilage to have them run with you and not a right. This has been explained a little bit in a few of the other thread concerning guild runs and the priorities other people put on what they want to do.

          There are a few people I've found suspect and reported to guild officers, but that only works if the officer in question is online and easy to get a hold of. Some of them aren't online that much outside of raid times and are a little trickier to get a hold of. The problem, when approached, will probably also be old because of the difficulty of getting a hold of the party in question if the subject isn't fresh.

          There is a serious stigma against reading. Its a often used joke with my long posts, but it holds a ring of truth. Simply put WoW is a game and people don't like working to play. If it feels to much like work to play then they stop playing or stop doing the work. You could refer people you don't think are acting appropriately to the rules and regs about respect, but odds are they won't listen unless you have the clout to make them listen.

          There is a method and way of writing and speaking that will inspire obediance for the short term as you project an aura of confidence and authority. I don't use it if I don't have to. Why? I'm not an officer and if you try to use such a tone of voice and people question the authority you put behind your tone then they realize you are all bark and no bite. At which point they have even less respect for you than they did before hand. Never give an order or ask something of someone that you know will not be followed. It just plants the seed of disobediance deeper into the roots of the pysche.
          My sanity is not in question...
          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.


          • #6
            Re: You do your job and I'll do mine


            I have had many of the same experiences in PUG's, especially when I took my 3-month hiatus from WoW. I suddenly found myself, upon logging in for the first time in 100 days, to be 40 levels lower than my buddies, and in dire (get it? DIRE?) need of groups for instances/quests. There were groups that rocked, groups that sucked, and some in between that, while tenuous, ended up working out.

            An important (I feel) addition to Tarenth's guidelines is this: There comes a time in the life of a group, be it 30 minutes in or 3 hours in, when it may become obvious that things are just not working out. It takes courage, at that moment, to drag Old Yeller out back, tie him to a tree and bash him with a shovel. I'm not saying that you should bail when things get tough - they always do in challenging situations... But when your group of 4 hunters and a warlock is having trouble deciding who will tank the Baron, it may just be time to bow out gracefully with a lesson learned and no hard feelings.

            Remember, it's only a game. Albeit a frigging awesome one.

            "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, you cannot say, or guess, for you know only a heap of broken images, where the sun beats, and the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, and the dry stone no sound of water." --T.S. Eliot


            • #7
              Re: You do your job and I'll do mine


              Amrod, if 4 hunters and a warlock can GET to baron then beating him is a cake walk in comparison. :P

              Personally I've only done it with 4 hunters and a priest. I like my healers and rezing too much.
              My sanity is not in question...
              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.


              • #8
                Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

                I generally agree with what is said here, but there is another side to part of this thread. Keep in mind, people are playing this game to have fun. Some people only have fun playing thier toon a certain way. Some druids can't stand to heal, usually from having failed miserably at it at some point as a lowbie. We need to respect the rights of these people who play thier toons a little differently than we would like them to, and take that into consideration when forming a party. I've done jailbreak several times with no healer, or healer-wanna-be, twice. It is possible if the group is working together and crowd controlling. One healer is more than enough, a feral druid or shadow priest should be allowed to do their feral thing or shadow thing full time if another healer is along. If a druid only stays in Bear form, keep that in mind and invite that druid to fill a tank slot. If they only stay in cat, ask them to fill a rogue slot. If a shadow priest stays in shadow form all the time, ask them to fill a dps slot. Just because a class has the capability to do something, doesn't mean that the player is any good at it, let them do what they are good at, and benefit from it. Some players are also good at utilizing all their talents and can switch back and forth as needed (Kemo comes to mind). These people are rare and can be used to fill any slot they are needed for. Let's not alienate people from the guild because they play a spec that is different from how we envision the class. Tolerence of diversity is the key to us all getting along.
                Anahlahna and Friends


                • #9
                  Re: You do your job and I'll do mine



                  • #10
                    Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

                    I love Feral druids. I love balance druids. In a raid they bring some very powerful buffs and abilities to the group. However, if you're fighting in a small group and things get sticky there are times personal preferences should get thrown out the window in favor of the survival of the group.

                    Druids have the unique position in that they can fill all three of the group roles and do it well if geared properly. They can be average in three fields, good in two fields, or excel in one field.

                    They can tank, but they have a small difficulty finding +defense to make them as strong as warriors. However with the armor conversion and some talents I've seen some dire bear druids push higher hp and armor than like geared warriors even if they can't use shields.

                    They can DPS, but they don't have an off hand and ranged weapon to give them the stats rogues have. However with a 2 AP per strength and 1 AP per agility conversion as well as a 20 agility per crit ratio they are at times better DPS than rogues who only have a 1 AP per strength and 26 agility to crit ratio. For gear, just steal rogue leather. :D

                    They can heal, but they don't have an escape skill like fade or bubblehearth. With the proper gear a druid can heal better than a priest due to the sheer number of quick heals and HoTs they can stack with a good deal of +healing. Leather healing gear tends to have a LOT of +healing and +intelligence, but lacks in mana/5 second like priest or paladin gear. Of course, if you're dedicated to improve your healing you could always wear cloth...most nonepic paladins do.

                    Of course the gear for tanking makes you a lousey healer and DPS just like the gear for healing makes you a weak tank and DPS. But sometimes 'anything' is better than 'nothing'.

                    Tolerance is all good and fine, but there are times you just want to pull your hair out over things. A 10 man UBRS group makes a pull and something minor goes wrong. There are 2 paladins, 1 priest, and 2 druids (both feral) and the 10 man is made up of 2 guilds only. The priest and 1 paladin go down leaving the last paladin to do all the healing. The paladin calls for help from the druids and one druid pops out to help heal...the other one pops out to rejuve himself then goes into bear form to try and pull aggro off the tank. Druid burns her innervate on the paladin and thing stabilize for a few moments, then both go OOM and scream for the other druid to help. That druid pops out to rejuve himself...again...then goes back to bear to try and pull aggro off the tank. Both druid and paladin pop potions and use minor heals and natural regen to keep members alive and over 50%. Afterwards the feral druid pops out and uses the /rude and /laugh emote on all the dead members (mainly the healers). I get a whisper to the effect of "OMG! What a noob!".

                    Tell me something isn't wrong with that picture? There are times where you just have to resign yourself to being a cog in the machine.
                    My sanity is not in question...
                    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

                    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.


                    • #11
                      Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

                      Yeah I hate druids like that.. yeah you may be feral but get over it; you're MAIN job is to heal if you're needed to. If you ever group with a druid that flat out refuses to heal I'd either leave or boot the noob.

                      |TG-Defiant| - It's you and me against the world. We attack at dawn.

                      You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you.


                      • #12
                        Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

                        I've never played a druid, but i've always thought their flexibility was really cool. And maybe being a "healer" isn't what you thought you were signing up for when you rolled your first character, but then go ahead and reroll a different toon. Its better than just refusing to heal when your group needs it. Either that or just solo everything.
                        Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                        Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                        ...and other distractions of various levels.


                        • #13
                          Re: You do your job and I'll do mine

                          my recent state of mind is this..... all people are stupid until proven otherwise
                          compared to my old one.. giving people the benefit of the doubt(about not being stupid)
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