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Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

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  • Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

    Regarding this. We are currently at max on some classes according to class officers and what we need for MC. We have been slowly filling MC without any issues and might be opening up classes to more recruits.

    The problem with this is that some would not be able to make the MC raids all the time. I'd almost go so far as to say that we need those that aren't geared a little to try to play the ZG/AQ runs more to get the gear/experience and then start running MC...otherwise, with over-crowding of classes, we run the risk of new people to the guild ousting current guilies from raids that they worked hard to get to the level of.

    I have no authority it would seem over telling someone when they are not properly geared for something and need to make the appropriate climb up the gear ladder...so I'm handing that to guildies...think before you expect to get into an instance...are you skipping content?...you could be gimping the run a slight bit.


  • #2
    Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

    I would rather have someone that's done ZG, AQ20, and the 5-10 man instances a bazillion times along side me in MC than someone who... diddn't. I started this way (Ground the last two levels in a day just so I could enter MC) and I diddn't know left from right... I benefited from playing a class that really has no 'crucial' points to raiding... wasn't responsible for anything... Also benefited from the fact that just about the whole guild was new to this whole MC thing... so I wasn't entirely the odd man out.

    Needless to say... I don't believe I was really ready for it. But GOD ZG makes me sleepy... =P
    RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

    Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

    I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

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    • #3
      Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

      Addressing warriors and their progression, readiness for MC means having at least 150 FR on your own...and ideally closer to 200. There are other threads posted about what items will get you to that level...and it takes more than a pot o'gold and trips to the AH.

      Warriors who are serious about MC and beyond should check out this...http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...p=1#post594562

      and this...http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...p=1#post924371

      These are item specific guides that are chock full of information. Admittedly, they are tanking oriented, but all warriors in MC have to do the "sword'n'board" dance every once in a while.

      In broad terms, you need to have quested enough and run the dungeon instances (Scholo, Strat, UBRS, LBRS, BRD and Dire Maul) enough to have your Tier 0 set...or its equivalent in other gear. FWIW, I never completed my Tier 0 set, but went for better gear/better stats focusing on DM especially for top-notch blue gear. If you're attempting MC in green gear, you're putting a burden on your healers and not ready for the instance. It's not personal...we were ALL there once.
      Beep


      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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      • #4
        Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

        Regarding paladins: God this is a hard role to define. Do you need to run the other stuff 1000 times? Yes. But the question is: what do you need to build?

        Pallies are not generally DPS in MC, not at first. However, a paladin's role in MC isn't very well defined. We're backup healing, and we're responsible for our tanks, but we're also responsible for the raid. The purpose of a paladin is to flip out and protect people.

        But how do you build your pre-mc gear? Lightforge is useless, since it has no +heal. So I'd recommend going and getting some of the decent +heal mail gear and throw int and stamina enchant. Basically you need to work first on your mana pool (for decursive fights) and then on your healing. You'll get geared up fast!

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        • #5
          Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

          I know this from experience. When i first started MC back in the day when TG and VB were joint running it i had some LF and other blue stuff...no healing gear and very little fire gear. I was constantly running out of mana and the fire just ate me up. You may look at healing gear thinkin pfft whats +20 to heals going to do or whats +3 mana every 5 sec gonna do. Trust me 20 here 10 there adds up and you will notice a huge difference.

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          • #6
            Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

            You know, I really have a hard time giving respect to people who go into MC and Ony raids straight off the front lines once they hit 60. I mean its great you got to 60 and the loot that drops there will definately be an upgrade for you, but you're just too green.

            Well, let me put it this way. I hit level 60 in November of 2004 because I took a short break. Then messed around until January finishing all my left over quests and went on another break until March. When I got back my guild (Unseen) told me "Welcome back! We're raiding now and you don't have the gear or experience to join us. So sorry" /gkick. A friend of mind wrangled me a spot in Oath, but they told me the same thing so I started working on my gear and joined other guilds working on preraid endgame. By a rough estimate it took me 2 months of hitting nothing but Baron 3 times a day to get my pants. 1 month of hitting UBRS at least twice a day to get my chestpiece. Of course, then Dire Maul was released and people told me to get DM gear instead, but there was no way I worked for 3 months for gear just to replace it again. My headpiece was a fluke since I got it on my first successful Scholo run in a 5 man I put together with 3 hunters, a rogue, and a druid healer without any deaths or wipes. We then did it again with 4 hunters and a priest with a 2nd one dropping. I hit the 1/4 mark to revered with Argent Dawn the HARD way. Mob rep points halfway to revered then 12000 rep in token turn-ins and quests. I can honestly say I had nothing but blue gear and green trinkets (good ones too, not the commision or such stuff) once I hit level 47.

            Instance running = good (you get good xp too in a 5 man that's close to each other in level). Solo grinding = bad.
            My sanity is not in question...
            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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            • #7
              Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

              I understand the purpose of this, but, here is a con to this.

              By doing this you are creating a "second teir" of members who can't earn DKP because they can't get on big raids until they have XYZ. Who decides when its enough that they can raid with the "big boys and girls"? And while they are trying to get one set of gear, the main people are moving even farther along creating an even bigger disparity. ZG gear is nice, AQ20 stuff seems ok, but the biggest, and quickest way to upgrade gear is MC. We all know this. If gear is a major concern, is anything being done to hurrying along the distribution of bank items we have? I think we are currently at 3 Bracers of Might, 2 Felheart Belts, and 1 Nightslayer Bracers. Is there no one in those classes who can use them?

              I personally think this could create tension and resentment which is never good for a guild.
              Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

              | | |

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              • #8
                Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                Well from my stand point as healer. I know I'd rather have along other priest that have the experience in those other instances healing. Because you need that experience to know what spells to heal with and not heal with, if you don't you run out of mana to fast or die because you didn't fade/shield/heal yourself or other raid members die often or you overheal WAY to much.

                I'll give an example - Say we have a priest along that doesn't have the experiences and spends most of the raid casting prayer of healing on group when only 1 or 2 have a bit of health lose(this is a HUGE waste of mana, due to the fact this spell heals everyone for around 1000, it's a waste even if everyone has a slight health loose in the group). I never use this spell in someplace like MC unless were doing surgers because of thier knockback doing damage as well as the slamming into wall damage, which causes nearly everyone in group to drop 1/4 to 1/3 of thier health. MC is mainly renew/flash heals only.

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                • #9
                  Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                  Actually its funny. For priests the best pieces of healing gear can be picked up in Blackrock Deep, Dire Maul, ZG, and AQ20. The pieces you find in MC typically are focused towards endurance and are heavy with high intelligence and mana/5second. The leather/plate pieces are the only ones comparable to Dire Maul gear for healing. That means your heavy healing gear could possibly picked up outside of the raid and everything you get in MC is nice solo gear or icing on the cake.

                  Aside from that, the better the priest is at the '1% game', the less they rely on flash heals and the longer their mana bar can last. The only place to improve on your heal judgement if, of course, doing 5 man raids. In the bigger 20/40 man raids you have other people picking up the heals you may miss and you start to rely on them more than your own spells.


                  I don't think you should go so far as have all, or even most, of your tier 0 stuff. Those instances are a long grind now that you can't zerg them and most of that gear (for warriors, priests, druids, and paladins for example) is pretty useless for what you'll be doing in raids. A few DM:E/W/N runs will get you better stuff and is a lot easy and faster to put together anyhow. I just don't want to see people in MC or Ony dressed in mostly greens and with the paint still fresh off their Ony key. Unless they're an alt, that just means they haven't got the time clocked in with instance running that will give you the experience to be much of an asset. I mean, the blues out of Uldaman and Maraudon are better than the greens you can buy in the 50 range.
                  My sanity is not in question...
                  It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                  Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                    I would imagine there is discussion on this subject in the officer forums.

                    IMO, working new people into MC is vital. But I do think that they shouldn't just walk into MC without doing some of the 5-man stuff and getting at least a portion of their tier 0 (or equivalent). If there's a spot open, sure bring em if they want, but we don't want to gimp the raid too much. Getting that gear and getting FR gear has got to fall on the individual. However, remember that very few of us had much in the way of FR when we started. Hell, some of us don't have enough now :D.

                    But it seems that some decisions are going to have to be made regarding rotations (by class) of people coming to MC.
                    Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                    Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                    ...and other distractions of various levels.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                      THis isn't a requirement we are setting up. I am asking some to not ignore the proper 5 man instances. The gear/experience/knowledge you learn there make you better in MC/ZG/AQ...and like someone said, you end up fading into the group and letting others do your work for you...ie: healers cross heal because you didn't...just an example...there are many reasons this can happen, but you should understand the meaning...

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                      • #12
                        Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                        While we might not need to enforce a "minimum gear" rule for MC, as people keep urging us to hit BWL, we really should enforce it there. Most guilds have a minimum gear requirement for BWL, and they have it for a reason. Everybody has to be on their "A-game" in there. That is often not the case with us, and if half the raid is poorly outfitted, that will make everything even harder. We should have a minimum requirement (x-armor for warriors, y fire resist, z-fire resist for casters, etc) and post it so everybody knows what they are aiming for to be ready for BWL and tier2 gear. When we have a 40-man appropriately geared and ready to go, that's when we should start hitting BWL.
                        Anahlahna and Friends

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                        • #13
                          Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                          Originally posted by Sajier
                          I understand the purpose of this, but, here is a con to this.

                          By doing this you are creating a "second teir" of members who can't earn DKP because they can't get on big raids until they have XYZ. Who decides when its enough that they can raid with the "big boys and girls"? And while they are trying to get one set of gear, the main people are moving even farther along creating an even bigger disparity. ZG gear is nice, AQ20 stuff seems ok, but the biggest, and quickest way to upgrade gear is MC. We all know this. If gear is a major concern, is anything being done to hurrying along the distribution of bank items we have? I think we are currently at 3 Bracers of Might, 2 Felheart Belts, and 1 Nightslayer Bracers. Is there no one in those classes who can use them?

                          I personally think this could create tension and resentment which is never good for a guild.
                          Saj,

                          I don't think the intent is to create a 2nd tier but rather to list some expectations for people entering into the 20 and 40 person instances. In my opinion this is absolutely necessary. If you join a 20 or 40 person raid and you're wearing level 52 greens and blues from your last Sunken Temple run then you're severly gimping your effectiveness and your dead weight to the rest of the group.

                          In my old guild we had a set roster of 40 people that attended MC every week. If you weren't on this roster then you didn't get to go unless someone else couldn't make it. The advantage to this approach is that everyone gets familiar with MC much quicker so it goes faster and you also got geared up a LOT faster. The disadvantage was some people never got to go. IMO, that might not be the best approach and I don't think that philosophy would ever work here nor do I think it should. BUT, and this is the big BUT, what we did have a concrete expectation from everyone that was considering going to MC. It was expected that everyone have at least their Dungeon level set or items that were similar in quality. You also were expected or be busting your butt to get at least 100FR on your own.

                          We all know the work required to get your Dungeon set and yes it's a pain in the ass at times. We know the work because most of the people in MC have done it. Sadly, there are others that have not done the work and they really need to. If you can't make the effort to be a contributing factor to the raid, then you don't deserve a spot.
                          “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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                          • #14
                            Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                            What about green FR gear????

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                            • #15
                              Re: Food For thought concerning Class Limits and Gearing Up.

                              Originally posted by Anah
                              While we might not need to enforce a "minimum gear" rule for MC, as people keep urging us to hit BWL, we really should enforce it there. Most guilds have a minimum gear requirement for BWL, and they have it for a reason. Everybody has to be on their "A-game" in there. That is often not the case with us, and if half the raid is poorly outfitted, that will make everything even harder. We should have a minimum requirement (x-armor for warriors, y fire resist, z-fire resist for casters, etc) and post it so everybody knows what they are aiming for to be ready for BWL and tier2 gear. When we have a 40-man appropriately geared and ready to go, that's when we should start hitting BWL.
                              BWL is where I'm going to diverge from my previous MC statements. BWL is a MUCH different test from MC. If we go in there with 40 people and we're undergeared then we are going to get bounced and bounced hard. I personally don't feel like paying 15g in repair bills because we're inviting anyone that wants to come. MC tests your FR, DPS and aggro control. BWL does that and will expose each and every weakness in your team.

                              I strongly believe that the class leaders should pick their top 5 players and that will become the BWL group. I realize this sounds harsh but for those of you that haven't been to BWL, I'm just saving you a LOT of frustration and some MASSIVE repair bills.
                              “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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