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  • Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

    In the interest of fairness, we have come up with two options in the officer forums. These are not currently up for discussion, but we do need a consensus or vote from the guild. Please help us with this decision. And please vote in fairness for your guildies. Alts are a vital part of our guild and we all need breaks from our mains now and then...so how do we handle it?

    1) All toons have equal footing for loot on all runs, but mains get signup pref for normal runs, all alts queue, and Alts have signup pref on alt night, all mains queue. (3-raid rule applies to each toon)

    2) Mains get priority for loot and signups on normal raids, and Alts get priority for loot and signups on Alt Nights. (3-raid rule applies to each toon)
    40
    Equal loot for all. Mains get signup pref for normal runs, Alts have signup pref on alt nights.
    40.00%
    16
    Mains get preference for loot and signups on normal raids, and Alts on Alt Nights.
    60.00%
    24

    The poll is expired.



  • #2
    Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

    I think that Mains should get pref on ALL NIGHTS, but Alts get SIGNUP pref on alt night.

    It would be better to further equip a main than to equip an alt that doesnt get used that much. Such as, even if it was Alt night in MC,and im on my rogue, any Nightslayer SHOULD go to a Main.

    "REMEMBER! Pillage first THEN Burn!"

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    • #3
      Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

      This is not a simple issue. While I believe that mains should have preference over alts, what about when someone is ASKED to bring their alt for class balance? When that happens, IMO, that alt should be on an equal footing for loot, for dkp, and anything else that raid with the mains who attend. If not, then why should they switch from main to alt?

      I think mains should have priority for signups...a clear multi-day window to fill any scheduled raid. For last 24 or 48 hours before a raid, then ANY OPEN SLOT could be filled by any main or any alt. An alt who fills a slot should keep that slot (full sign up rights) and have equal footing for loot and dkp with other raid participants. This would encourage mains to sign up early, but would fill out raids before the start time with the desired class balance. Frankly if my alt was expected to pass on loot, I wouldn't take him on a raid. Why would I if he was ALWAYS expected to pass in favor of some newly arrived lvl 60 main?

      We need to be attentive the time and effort invested by many of our players in developing alts. They benefit the guild by being flexible...and can be of increasing benefit if they are well geared.

      In my opinion, mains get priority by being given the opportunity to fill raids first. If they don't do so, then alts should have equal opportunity once they are signed up. If my alt is always expected to defer to any other main for loot, then we are setting a policy that says "we don't care about your alts" and there is a higher probability that our alts will look for another guild home. I'd hate to see that happen when it so unnecessary. The alternative is that the player would be forced to change main toon designation if they want "fair" treatment for a second toon. It's especially frustrating for me because my alt (Beepster, priest) was developed at the guild's request when we had no healers. I developed Beep at the guild's request because we then had no tanks (but a few healers).

      Let me say it again...mains should have priority over alts...but with limits consistent with fairness.

      My "position" on this is the first choice in the poll...which isn't clear from the way the poll is written, but is clear if you read Crebis's post.
      Beep


      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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      • #4
        Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

        I think more frequent "alt nights" would alleviate some of the imbalance.

        The one we had the other night was wildly successful!


        "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, you cannot say, or guess, for you know only a heap of broken images, where the sun beats, and the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, and the dry stone no sound of water." --T.S. Eliot

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        • #5
          Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

          imho.. if your alt has enough DKP to bid on an item.. obviously they have been on enough runs to do so (altho new alts that have 0 dkp with the rest of the class having -dkp would be a backfire.. therefor i suggest that alts ONLY be alloud to bid on an item IF they have enough DKP to stay out of the negative)
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          . . . .

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          • #6
            Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

            I think this should be a pretty simple if you think about the overall objective. The purpose of running ZG & AQ are to futher strengthen your toons and subsequently the guild. Whether your goal is items, enchants or simply rep the end results remain the same. If it's not a designated "alt" night then you probably should be there with your main. If you don't want to bring your main then save the spot for someone that does. We've almost got enough members with alts now to run both of the 20 person instances.

            The issue gets complicated when someone is asked to bring an "alt" to fill out a group. If that's the case then I think it becomes much more complicated. I know I don't enjoy spending a couple of hours in ZG with my rogue only to be told I can't roll on something because others are trying to gear up their main. Despite that, I'd feel stupid and a little ashamed of taking a Warblade from someones main. I still think the premise has to remain firm, main's get first preference, alt's get ala carte freedom on alt night.
            “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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            • #7
              Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

              Perhaps we should not allow alts in our guild...that would make it simple and a non-issue.

              Or better yet, we could require guild members to destroy any character other than their main so that you don't get distracted away from playing your main character!!!
              Beep


              Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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              • #8
                Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                I somehow doubt that's where he was going with that, Beep.

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                • #9
                  Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                  Originally posted by luna
                  I somehow doubt that's where he was going with that, Beep.
                  Maybe not, but I'm seeing a 2 to 1 margin that says that alts are not worth much to the guild. I'm unhappy with that result. If alts really are not allowed to have a fair shot at raiding and gear, then we should be ready AND WILLING to see alts (belonging to officers as well as non-officers find another guild home where they can have more rights.

                  Don't misunderstand me...I'm one of the hard-core that mains should take precedence over alts. For me it is a matter of degree and fairness. I think I've played "by the rules". As evidence for that my alt has not been past the first MC pull...has not made it to revered with Zandalar or friendly with Cenarion Circle. It's beginning to look like he'll never have the chance either...or if he does, he'll be expected to pass on loot in favor of someone's main...unless we're waiting for some infrequently scheduled "alt night" where most of the raid was populated with mains.

                  I think the phrasing of the poll is misleading to boot...with as much discussion as we've had on this issue, I had a hard time deciphering which option was what. Crebis's post was clear, and I'm concerned that the poll choices didn't reflect his post.
                  Last edited by beep; 08-07-2006, 09:50 AM.
                  Beep


                  Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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                  • #10
                    Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                    I agree with Amrod. Why not just have alt nites more often and lets try to get as many alts in the raid as possible. This keeps people interested in their alts and for those with all or most all of their gear, gives them a chance to get their alt some gear also. I don't think we should kick alts out of the guild. I know alot of people that would pull their mains out if we did that and I don't want to see that. So lets just have more alt nites to help solve the problem.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                      Originally posted by crim
                      I agree with Amrod. Why not just have alt nites more often and lets try to get as many alts in the raid as possible. This keeps people interested in their alts and for those with all or most all of their gear, gives them a chance to get their alt some gear also. I don't think we should kick alts out of the guild. I know alot of people that would pull their mains out if we did that and I don't want to see that. So lets just have more alt nites to help solve the problem.
                      Well said, crim! On alt nights, the mains should only be used as filler, and, as stated, alts get signup preference. Ideally, an alt night would have no mains at all.


                      "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, you cannot say, or guess, for you know only a heap of broken images, where the sun beats, and the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, and the dry stone no sound of water." --T.S. Eliot

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                      • #12
                        Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                        i heard how the last alt night(zg) went.. and i dont want to be a part of that
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                        • #13
                          Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                          I am with Beep on this issue. I couldnt agree more. I also believe that if a person who has an alt has the DKP .. then let them spend their DKP.. they obviously have put the time in..

                          I also am with Beep that if we dont let people play their alts then they might as well put their alts in another guild where they will be allowed to play.. I dont want that either but thats what it leans towards. We have no reason to keep an alt here if we cant play them.

                          (I know Beep was being somewhat sarcastic but he was making a point)

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                          • #14
                            Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                            I think the wording is a tad vague and situational for those two choices to be the end all.

                            For example: I see ZG and AQ20 mentioned a few times in people's posts and I wasn't even aware those were considered loot preferance raids. We certainly don't spend any DKP in there and I don't think anyone really cares about the loot if they're already getting MC gear.

                            I'm for this:

                            MC/BWL/Onyxia/AQ40/Naxx should be 'mains first' raids. We get 40 people together and hit it hard. It takes effort, skill, and gear to succeed and we need to get our front line characters fixed up as much as possible so that we can speed things up and move on to harder content. The more mains we have in the raid with good gear, the better off we are. Until we have an 'alt night' in MC where we screw around with alts I'd like to see mains have priority over everything so we can prep ourselves for BWL and beyond.

                            ZG...I don't even consider it a difficult raid. We can clear everything except Jin'do in a single night and do it half assed and with zerg tactics 90% of the time. There should be no preference to loot or sign ups between mains or alts simply because we could probably run it twice every 3 day period with both mains and alts and still not have to worry about it. The loot drops like candy and the spread with a 20 person raid is a lot easier than with a 40 man using DKP.

                            AQ20 is getting closer and closer to a situation similar to ZG. We can hit quiet a few bosses with an almost certain level of success so there really in no difficulty in hitting it every few days for the loot again and again. No loot or sign up preferences here either since most of the loot is blue, we don't use DKP, and the stuff we fight for out of MC is better in most cases.

                            And yes, eventually I foresee a period when MC will be so easy for us we could litterally clear it with our eyes closed in a single day. When that happens it will get catagorized down with ZG and AQ20 to open raids simply because we don't need to emphasis getting the best of the best out on the line to make it succeed.

                            Simply put when a raid gets reduced to the level of a UBRS run in difficulty and number of times it could be completed then the need for strict rules with loot and sign ups fades away.


                            Paring everything down into a nutshell my thoughts sound like this:

                            40 man instances we are still working on should be the domain of mains and mains only. We want the best of the best on the line so we can learn, conquer, and surpass the content as soon as possible. Mains should get priority on sign-ups and loot.

                            20 man instances are getting easier and easier for us. Without the use of DKP and with the 3 day rotation for resets we can hit them frequently, easily, and possibly with multiple raids at the same time. There should be NO loot or sign up preference simply because mains should be getting better loot in the 40 man runs anyways.

                            An ammendment to that would be this. I wouldn't mind seeing old characters have precedent over newer characters in the 40 man raids and vice versa on the 20 man raids. ZG and AQ20 are a VERY good place to learn raid tactics and get a step up on loot to gear for MC (minus the FR gear).
                            My sanity is not in question...
                            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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                            • #15
                              Re: Mains vs. Alts concerning Raid Sign-Ups

                              Originally posted by Chair
                              i heard how the last alt night(zg) went.. and i dont want to be a part of that
                              Fine then! You're not invited!


                              "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, you cannot say, or guess, for you know only a heap of broken images, where the sun beats, and the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, and the dry stone no sound of water." --T.S. Eliot

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