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  • Simple Suggestions and Ideas

    Just some things that I've been thinking about and feel like I should actually put in writing to look over.

    Raid Sign Ups

    Basic Idea: To change the current First Come First Served system into a time independent system.

    Implementation: Raids go onto the raid sign up site as usual with class spots left at 0/0. For two/three days after the raid goes on the page all signups go to the queue. At the end of the 'free sign up' period a roll off is made to determine if you attend the raid or get a backup position on the queue. If you are rolled off to the queue you are exempt from being rolled off on the next chronological raid you have signed up for. After the roll off is done then the raid is populated with people who were lucky enough to win and any left over class balanced spots are then populated with the usual FCFS method.

    Example: There are 7 people signed up for the 5 hunter slots. /roll 7 is used and a 3 pops up so the third person to sign up chronologically is then moved to the queue. /roll 6 is used and a 6 pops up so the 7th person to sign up chronologically is then moved to the queue. That means 1,2,4,5,and 6 all get a spot on the raid with 3 and 7 in the queue. If the same 7 sign up on the raid the next day then 3 and 7 get bumped up to the raid and /roll is used twice to leave two off again between 1,2,4,5, and 6.

    Reasoning: The current raid sign up system is very luck dependent and somewhat unfair to some people depending on when the raid goes up. There are days you are told when it is up and you can sign up right away, and there are days you notice it’s been up for over 24 hours and you're lucky if you get the 3rd spot on the queue. By shifting away from a FCFS system to one that's random and time independent then it means people have a buffer where they can sign up and still have a chance at getting a spot on the raid. Also if we have an over abundance of people of one class, it ensures that there is a somewhat even chance that people will be rotated in and out at random so that everyone can attend raids.

    Cons: It is possible to get an 'unlucky streak' and get rolled off every other raid you've signed up for. Also, DKP is definitely slanted on a few days more than others. If we do all of MC on Saturday and only Onyxia on Friday and Sunday then its obvious that people who get into Saturday's raid will have more DKP then people in Friday's and Sunday's.

    BoE, DE, and DKP

    Basic Idea: To provide a system that maintains Zero-Sum DKP and does not penalize newer members or pressure people into taking items they don't want due to DKP loss from items.

    Implementation: A raid member called 'bank' is added to all the raids. That means if 40 people are in the raid the DKP is split between those 40 and the bank for a 41 way split. This ensures that the bank is always gaining DKP. If a BoE drops that no one wants then the epic is bought by the bank and the DKP is split amongst the raid. That BoE can then be bought from the bank by another character with a simple transfer of DKP from that character to the bank. Yes, that means the bank gets the split from winning the BoE and the full cost of the item from the receiving character, but lets consider that a 'holding fee'. If an epic is DEed (IE Nexusstrike) then the item is bought by the bank and DKP is awarded to the raid as usual.

    Example: [item]Bracers of Might[/item] drop (again) and no warrior in the raid needs it when it is offered. The item is then bought by the bank and the 20 DKP is split amongst the 41 raid members (40 PCs + bank). Another warrior then wants to buy the bracers so 20 DKP is transferred from the warrior to the bank. [item]Shadowstrike[/item] drops...again...and no one wants it...again. The bank then buys the item as its DEed for 20 DKP that is split amongst the 41 members of the raid.

    Reasoning: As more and more people get all their gear more and more of those items will start to get DEed. That means people who start to raid with us later on will get less DKP than people who were raiding from the beginning. The only problem with awarding DKP for a DEed item right now is because it loses Zero Sum since DKP is going out without any going back in. Adding the bank as a raiding toon serves two purposes really. It provides DKP for items we DE so that no DKP is 'lost' during the raid and it also provides a list of what has been DEed before for the records. Since DKP is going in (from nonbanked/DEed items) and going out (from banked/DEed items) Zero Sum is maintained.

    Cons: All items are valued with an even number of DKP and 41 is an odd number for a split. However, it is the same problem if only 39 people are in the raid so not really much of an excuse to not do it. Also, with an extra 'body' in the raid there will be slightly less DKP per person per item. Yet, the difference between a 40 and a 41 split is so minor the amount of DKP gained from a DE compensates for that.

    Amendment: If we acquire any Tier 1 BoEs through nonBoE trade/gift/theft then the DKP cost for those items is awarded directly to the bank and not to the entire guild. If the BoE is traded for another BoE then DKP is transferred as mentioned above. If DKP is awarded to the entire guild on a 'give away' then it is definately possible that the more alts you have the more DKP you will get for those BoEs.
    My sanity is not in question...
    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.




  • #2
    Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

    There already is an account on the DKP site called 'bank' which is where the BoE's that we get but do not disperse go to.

    This account is at it's maximum capacity as far as new features are concerned. It is a temporary swap space where BoE's go to be transfered upon a member buying from it. That is all this account is for.

    Yes, as we move forward in MC more will be Disenchanted and less DKP given out, but also more people would be passing, so people will be getting equipped faster anyways.
    RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

    Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

    I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

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    • #3
      Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

      Not being an expert in various DKP systems myself it I might not be seeing the downside, but it seems that Tarenth's ideas are pretty good. I know that every time someone questions the "zero-sum" aspect of our current system (ie. no one getting dkp for DE'd items) that they seem to be shut-down immediately. The system has worked great for us so far, but when we start de'ing half of the stuff that drops it would be great if the officers would consider tweeks to the system. I'm not trying to stir up anything or anything like that, but being open-minded to the ideas brought up by everyone else is probably a good thing.

      Personally, I'm not a fan of the roll-offs, but thats not bad Tarenth - 1 out of 2 :D.
      Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
      Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
      ...and other distractions of various levels.

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      • #4
        Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

        In all honesty, I don't see why having the bank being a DKP sink for BOEs is a bad thing. Many other guilds, POA included, do that. However, there's a lot of discussion on it I have to read up on in officer forums.

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        • #5
          Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

          We want to keep Zero-Sum. I don't know why, but its Shal's system and he says zero-sum so we keep it zero-sum. That's why adding the bank as a member of the raid is such a simple and elegant solution. Someone is still buying those items we DE and that someone is also still earning DKP from the raids. As long as DKP goes in as well as out then zero-sum is maintained.
          My sanity is not in question...
          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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          • #6
            Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

            Yeah, but shal doesn't want the bank to become a DKP sink.

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            • #7
              Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

              But since "TGBank o'DKP" is earning DKP on all raids as our 41st member then the items it buys to DE should allow it to not end up a DKP sink.
              Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
              Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
              ...and other distractions of various levels.

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              • #8
                Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                So I can "buy" epic items and turn them into the bank for DKP?

                /buysfarmedgold

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                • #9
                  Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                  Originally posted by Altor View Post
                  So I can "buy" epic items and turn them into the bank for DKP?

                  /buysfarmedgold

                  ?
                  Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                  Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                  ...and other distractions of various levels.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                    I do think that its bad that DEed items don't count for DKP. Nexus Crystals are valuable to the guild, as they can be used for some great enchants and a few other things in the future, and it did take the raid to get them. So why aren't we receiving DKP for the Crystals, or receiving DKP when those crystals are used for something like a +15 FR enchant or something? Maybe Crystals are worth 5 or 10 DKP and when you use them out of the bank you are charged for what you use, but the raid members at least get some credit for their work to obtain the crystals.

                    Just something to think about.
                    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                    | | |

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                    • #11
                      Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                      While I will defer to the DKP experts, the main goal of the zero-sum DKP system is to insure a fair distribution of epic loot to the guild members in a way that is more even-handed than need/greed.

                      If no DKP is assigned to a DE'd item, you are no better or worse off than you were before the item dropped...meaning your DKP hasn't changed and your relative ranking is unchanged. You are still in the same position as far as bid priority for an item that you DO want.

                      Since we are pretty far down the road to farming MC, we will see an increasing frequency of DE's because all our raiders will just not need or want the items that drop.
                      Beep


                      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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                      • #12
                        Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                        Originally posted by beep View Post
                        While I will defer to the DKP experts, the main goal of the zero-sum DKP system is to insure a fair distribution of epic loot to the guild members in a way that is more even-handed than need/greed.

                        If no DKP is assigned to a DE'd item, you are no better or worse off than you were before the item dropped...meaning your DKP hasn't changed and your relative ranking is unchanged. You are still in the same position as far as bid priority for an item that you DO want.

                        Since we are pretty far down the road to farming MC, we will see an increasing frequency of DE's because all our raiders will just not need or want the items that drop.
                        Agreed here, after thinking on it it seems like getting DKP for DEed items is just bein plain greedy for no reason. I mean, it's all relative right? It's simple math.. EVERYONE gets the DKP removed regardless, so everyone is in the same boat. Now, where it becomes a problems is it's just bad luck that someone is on a raid with a DE as opposed to someone else that isnt. My answer to this?? Have ur DKP ducks in a row and make sure someone in the guild benefits from the loot.
                        As far as DE for benefit of crystals, etc. Why not just set aside some time for this purpose? Just DE every damned thing! You gotta remember what these crystals are used for. In many ways it's as good as getting a nice loot drop. And if not used for these purposes, they can always be sold for gold.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                          Originally posted by beep View Post

                          If no DKP is assigned to a DE'd item, you are no better or worse off than you were before the item dropped...meaning your DKP hasn't changed and your relative ranking is unchanged. You are still in the same position as far as bid priority for an item that you DO want.
                          ... Repair bill money isn't that big of a deal, but the time is. And while you didn't go down in the list you didn't go up (in relation to those that were on an alt or farming or not in game at all)... so it just encourages people NOT to go once they get theirs. I don't want people to quit going to MC once they get their gear. Same with Ony.

                          However, the idea that Tarenth is suggesting seems to stay true to the tenents of "ZERO SUM" and still gives the people raiding DKP - Albiet slightlyl less (1/41st instead of 1/40th).
                          Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                          Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                          ...and other distractions of various levels.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                            The whole point of Zero-sum DKP is that in the end, when all is said and done, and all of the loot has been gathered and handed out, Everybody will have Zero DKP.
                            Putting stuff in the bank is great, assuming people are going to get it, at some point in time.
                            DE'ing stuff is better, as it supplies the guild with wonderfully useful nexus crystals.

                            Asking to be given DKP for something that you melt would be unfortunate for people coming into the guild at a later time, as it, rather unfortunately, would mean that the newcomers would be out double DKP... old timers got DKP for the melted item, the new guy didn't. Now he's gonna have to wait for the item to drop, spend his DKP on that item, and BAM... everybody gets DKP for that item AGAIN. Now... add that up for say... an entire 8/8 lawbringer set. Poor new bastard won't know what hit him.

                            The best part of Zero-sum DKP is that you all get a chance to get gear... and the people who get stuff first generally have to wait to be able to get stuff again. the new people aren't supposed to be penalized for being new... they're supposed to be treated equally.
                            _________________



                            I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Simple Suggestions and Ideas

                              Originally posted by Pistos
                              ... it just encourages people NOT to go once they get theirs. I don't want people to quit going to MC once they get their gear. Same with Ony.
                              Wow, good point. That's something I hadn't thought about. Let me throw that at the officers and see what they think in that regard.

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