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  • Altor
    started a topic I guess this is farewell

    I guess this is farewell

    Alts are worthless in this guild unless you are an officer. Now that the official stance is they get one day (oh boy...ZG) it just isn't worth it for me to keep any of them in the guild. I don't play Altor much...I really don't like to. But he is my main and that is what was needed to get into MC. So it seems if I want to play Gundola, I have to do it elsewhere. I could understand when we were splitting raids between 2 guilds. But now that we can form our own 40 man...it's just not right. I am leaving knowing I took nothing from the guild. You didn't gear me (I got one Arcanist piece), and I know I have contributed in the herb/items department.

    I hope you can come to a resolution about alts. People put the same time and effort into leveling them to 60. They want to be able to play them as well. If that means moving to another guild, it will happen. That just means TG will miss out, not only on some good toons, but the people behind them as well. They won't be able to make the raids with their mains if they are raiding in another guild with their "alt".


    Ricca, thank you for taking the time to talk to me about this...You were the only one to send me a tell. If you ever need anything, just ask.

  • beep
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Originally posted by Pistos View Post
    Conversation without drama... so nice. :D
    Gotta love it...:)

    Stay tuned for an imminent announcement to clarify our "new" policy RE: mains and alts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pistos
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
    So, no worries... and there should be no complaints really. My lil speech here and Beeps "Love Thy Main" thread are merely smart advice. Some people need it, some people dont. Some people are on another wavelength. As long as we stay sensible towards eachother it's all good.
    Conversation without drama... so nice. :D

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambit7
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    I wholeheartedly agree with both Pistos and Beep. But, my statements were more geared (no pun intended) towards those people who demand a lot of toons with purple gear. As well, everything I said is not really my opinion... just plain fact really.

    What people do with their time is their business of course, but the facts still remain and logic dictates.

    Of course alts are important to raid dynamics, moneymaking, content, etc. But I'm a believer that you really shouldnt let it interfere with your toons progress to the degree that people complain because of "alt-rights" or QUIT THE GUILD. Just makes no sense.

    TG gives players plenty of choices as it stands now and I'm sure many guilds are a lot stricter then us.

    Communication about your intentions is the real key, as I spoke earlier about a ZG run we recently had. If you're in the guild just to raid and get gear and not even really associate with your guildies then obviously you're going to have problems coordinating your alt usage.

    I dont believe in "policies" as much as other do, I tend to have faith that people will work it out.... but that doesnt work if no one talks and they just get pissed and threaten to leave the guild or just post some rant. I'd like to think we arent that mechanical.

    Anyways, as people have been sayin... the alts will naturally have their day without even hindering the mains really. But for now we have a ways to go before that time. As we get geared and experienced for more content, the less days in the week we have for other things. ZG and AQ are naturally alt-prone areas because they're during the week and the instance rewards themselves are great for craftsmen, where alts tend to prosper. Also harder to balance a 20-man.

    So, no worries... and there should be no complaints really. My lil speech here and Beeps "Love Thy Main" thread are merely smart advice. Some people need it, some people dont. Some people are on another wavelength. As long as we stay sensible towards eachother it's all good.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pistos
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    I've been a huge advocate for mains getting preference for gear and signups, but I'm going to have to agree with Beep on this one. I do think that we need to focus our raiding time (for the most part) on getting our mains geared and getting into new content. And while there are many people that play this game and don't bother with alts except for money-making for others its a good change of pace and keeps the game fresh and fun. My alt is a 58 warrior that I made a miner (to collect dark iron ore for thorium bro. rep for my main) and a flower picker (to collect mats for potions for my main). However, the warrior is still a blast to play. Being a holy priest is fun, and I never have enough time to do all I want with him, but in the past when I've gone 10-12 nights straight raiding with him then I get kinda burnt out. Playing alts (questing, 5mans, grinding, farming, whatever) is a nice way to do something different, and support your main at the same time.

    As far as running an alt night once a week its no different than people choosing to PVP or grind faction rep. As long as we're not forgoing MC or Ony to run alt-night then its no different than us having a "empty" night on the calendar. Getting MC down to 1 evening is very important - that will allow us to spend more time in BWL.

    I do think that mains are the key to getting moving forward with content, but people need to be able to play the game as a game. Once it isnt fun anymore thats when people switch to new games. There are a ton of games out right now that I'd love to play but I don't because this game is still alot of fun and by far the most fun game I've ever played. But that doesn't mean that we, as a guild, stop to gear up 3 or 4 alts each. We just have to keep moving forward in 20 mans and 40 mans. Focusing on keeping the "amount of time to clear the instance" as low as possible, doing Ony before or after MC or BWL -- these things will give us the free evenings we need for more content. In the last few weeks we have been progressing :).

    MC down to 1.5 nights (with loot going faster)
    Rag down every week - Domo one-shotted weekly
    Ony down twice a week
    ZG is a one-night event with a focused group
    AQ20 up to last boss

    It was a little over a month ago and we had: Never killed Rag, Never been past Moam, Killed Ony once. So while there may be issues that need to be dealt with the officers have really done a good job keeping us moving forward. I don't see any reason that won't continue.

    Leave a comment:


  • beep
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Siulung, it's a matter of degree and personal preference.

    I'm glad for you that you are focused on your main! That's a good thing and lines up with our policy of declaring mains!

    BUT...(there's always a but...)...alts are needed (as you suggest) for farming, professions diversification, and a change of pace/fun/etc.

    AND...(this is where we differ a bit)...I think we can "have it all" and accomodate other player choices like that of playing other alts...even multiple alts. In my case, I run my main in every instance where he is needed even though my Priest alt is geared and ready to start MC. Part of my motivation is that Beep's tanking gear and capabilities make him a help for the overall raid success. Part of my motivation is that he still needs rep or gear or both (still missing 2 pieces of Tier 1 armor).

    My Priest Alt was my main for several months and is a class I enjoy playing. We don't need Beep the Tank for every instance and for every run. Even when we are regularly running BWL, (and I expect that Beep will be "fully" geared from MC), we won't run it every night. That will create opportunities for us to have guild-sponsored ZG/AQ20/MC runs that won't absolutely require a Tier 2 geared 'toon. We won't breeze through MC as we do now with mains, but that's OK...to be expected. Mains who still want MC gear will likely constitute the majority of these "lower" runs in the future.

    The irony is that I have stood on the same soapbox you're on...and agitated a whole group of folks many months ago with a post called "Love Your Main". As we have evolved as a guild, we have some players who left us because we didn't support their ideas for alt "equality" or for raiding style or some other reason. We have consistently held the position that Mains are our primary focus for raiding, for gear, for signups. We are, even now, working on a restatement of our official stance about mains and alts, trying to strike a balance between having well-geared and experienced mains to move the guild forward...and alts for fun and profit, alts capable of filling needed class spots for raiding.

    Summarizing, we definitely need to stay focused on our Main 'toons and their progress. That does not automatically equate to ignoring alts or relegating them to mule status or farmer roles only.
    Last edited by beep; 08-18-2006, 12:41 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambit7
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
    Once we have MC down to one night we should move to a second "alt" night of MC. That way all of the "alt" issues dissappear.

    It's my recollection that ZG is meant to be a stepping stone to MC.
    Doing this would of course take away content from another area. Cant have it all guys. If we have "alt" nights for MC then that means less people for other things like BWL and so on... let alone ZG and AQ. Maybe someday though.

    Why do people think there is enough gear and guild around to setup a million different toons?? The fact is, there isnt... at least not concurrently. All that will do is bog down everyone. Personally, I'd like to see everyone in Tier 3 gear and exalted with BoD - this is my dream. I wouldnt sacrifice this just so some alts can get some Tier 1 gear.

    Gotta make a choice here people... I made mine a long time ago. Siulung will be as uber as the game will take him. My precious time and game content wont be split amongst other toons. I intend to wear out this game until he's hit a brick wall... and then whine at the devs for more. If I had an alt I was using for anything but a moneymaker I'd be a hypocrite.

    If I were all you 60's with alts I'd just be using them to make as MUCH money and material for my main as possible. This way you could BUY your way into a lot of really good gear and content.

    If I were all you 60's with alts I'd be attuned for Naxxramus, exalted with Cen. hold and a million other things, instead of just tryin to get the alt geared. Think about this people.

    Also know that WoW WILL eventually fizzle out... and if your time is split between many alts when people jump to the next best game you'll be stuck way behind the curve with an unsupported game (by blizzard). Yes, this is a profound statement... but, for gamers that like to game in general it just doesnt pay to split content between many different toons.

    What happens when the tactical MMO Huxley comes out? Tabula Rasa? Conan? Spore? Etc... You'll be compelled to try these products and be left with an unfinished toon in WoW. Instead of just being able to raid with friends with great gear when time permits you'll still be stuck in the gear-grind for all your alts.

    These are important things to think about.

    Yes lvling an alt can be fun and you get to explore different content. I admire those that pursue this. But once you hit end-game the reasons are different. The alt should be a tool, nothing more.

    Sorry to burst a lot of your bubbles, but these are gaming truths. The only exceptions to the rules are gametesters, GMs, and those with way too much time on their hands.

    Leave a comment:


  • TG_Bear
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Once we have MC down to one night we should move to a second "alt" night of MC. That way all of the "alt" issues dissappear.

    It's my recollection that ZG is meant to be a stepping stone to MC.

    Leave a comment:


  • doofeey
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    If all the hunter spots are filled and I want to bring my lock that IS geared for MC and I sign up my lock.. Why cant I.. on MAIN night? There wa a lock spot open and I choose it... What sthe problem with that? Now, if Ash came to me and said, "Hey, you mind pulling your lock outta that raid, I'd like to go, Id o it becuase thats his MAIN. I might not want to, but I will beucase its the right thing to do. But, just in case Ash never asks, someone NEEDS to monitor the raid signups, see a MAIN is in que because an alt took a spot and the alt gets bumped down to que. Thats very fair. Class leaders are the logical choice to do this, imo. (sorry for using you as an example, Ash ;) )

    If an alt is fit for the fight, why shouldnt it be allowed to go? Becuase others have alts that are not ready to go? Thats not fair to those that have put the work into getting an alt ready for end game. That alt should nto have to wait for the other guild alts to catch up just so it is allowed to get geared. A mostly alt raid into MC is only going to benefit the repair vendor with an influx of gold. At the present moment at least.

    Leave a comment:


  • doofeey
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    We dont need to run AQ and ZG with our alts to get them geared... We need to run the same places our mains ran back in the day BEFORE there was an AQ or a ZG. I've said it time and time again and only a game developer will convince me otherwise... There is a natural progression to the instances... And UBRS, Strat etc are the places to be before MC. I hate those places, and my lock was lucky, but he had most of his tier 0 gear before ever going to MC.

    AQ and ZG are good for rep and maybe weapons. MAYBE enchants. Not gear. And yes, AQ and ZG are the shiny new toys that all the cool kids want to play wtih. but a cool kid that ill geared is a dead cool kid. Well, certainly dead before a geek with proper gear. As a general rule.

    How about this... Only alts that are properly geared come to main runs. Or.. only alts that have a minimum of 6 set 0 pieces (or better) can come on main runs? Now, that will irk many people that want to bring their alts... But, as we all know, an ill geared alt.....

    Folks will start to go out and do what they need to do to get he toon geared... and in doing so, probably learn more about he dynamics of playing that alt in a group and probably get some other loot as well.


    Originally posted by Anah View Post
    We need to run zg, and aq with our alts to get them geared, just like we did with our mains. (I think the fang of venoxious is almost as good as the azuresong mageblade, and no dkp spent) When enough alts are geared, alt night could run into MC, but that will take a while. We hate to lose you over this Altor, you've been a great guildie. I have 5 60s myself, and agree with you about the work put in to get them to 60, and wanting to get them geared. Where we run into problems is that we need a certain level of gearing to hit the next set of dungeons. If we start rotating alts into normal raids, we don't get any faster at them, and the mains get geared slower. The concern seems to be that people with only 1 high-level toon will get bored and move on so they can be in a guild with new content. We are striving to achieve some sort of balance. If you feel you must leave while the waters are still churning, we wish you the best and I'll put you on my friends list. Good luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • Quarath
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Originally posted by beep View Post
    Uhhh....that would also require the approval of the Class Leader for your "new" main. If that class is already full...then it can be an issue.
    Totally understandable but not insurmountable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambit7
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Just last night in ZG we had quite a few alts in the raid. They actually made the raid more balanced while keepin the raid in-guild. As well, they were allowed to loot the same as mains (sensibly of course). A few even switched from mains to alts for the betterment of the raid (and actually preferred doing so for their alts), in-so doing they made sure they had a suitable replacement for their mains and that they werent taking the spot of a main.

    Simple, civil, fun, and worked out best for everyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ricca
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Candrice was my main then I was working on Ricca I let everyone know that once she gets to 60 Candrice was going to be put on the shelf and Ricca would be my main then and a year ago that how Ricca became my mainbut then we werent worried baout class balance or instance running or anything of that sort like we are now.. If anyone wants to change there main as long as both class leaders dont mind anyone can change there mains...We would rather make guildies happier to change there mains and not recruit out and keep guildies from leaving the guild...

    Leave a comment:


  • beep
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    Originally posted by Quarath View Post
    What makes a main a main and an alt an alt. It seems to me that your main the char you enjoy playing the most, and do play the most. Not too long ago Ricca was Candrice and Candrice was the main. Now I'm pretty sure we can say Ricca is the main and Candrice is the alt. If you want to play Gundola then declare him your main and Altor your alt.
    Uhhh....that would also require the approval of the Class Leader for your "new" main. If that class is already full...then it can be an issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Quarath
    replied
    Re: I guess this is farewell

    What makes a main a main and an alt an alt. It seems to me that your main the char you enjoy playing the most, and do play the most. Not too long ago Ricca was Candrice and Candrice was the main. Now I'm pretty sure we can say Ricca is the main and Candrice is the alt. If you want to play Gundola then declare him your main and Altor your alt.

    Leave a comment:

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