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Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

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  • Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

    We have a new policy statement on the whole topic of Mains and Alts in our raiding. We encourage everyone to read it. It is effective immediately

    The formal policy is here....Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

    In a nutshell, the new policy allows only mains the right to signup for raids, while alts may queue. In the last 24 hours before the raid, class leaders will begin to fill open slots in the raid FROM THE QUEUE.

    Once in the raid, Mains and Alts will have equal preference for loot. As a practical matter, Mains are pretty far ahead of alts in gear so the expectation of competition over a critical item should be low. We expect all raid participants to exhibit common courtesy and common sense with respect to loot.
    Beep


    Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

  • #2
    Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

    This policy is for 20's and 40-mans?
    Can alts transfer DKP or does it stay on them?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

      Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
      This policy is for 20's and 40-mans?
      Can alts transfer DKP or does it stay on them?
      The policy is for both 20 and 40 man raids. 20 man raids do not use DKP.

      Alts that raid will keep the DKP earned during the raid UNLESS the alt was specifically invited by the RL to fill a class need. Under those circumstances only, the DKP earned in that raid by the alt MAY (at the choice of the player) be transferred to the Main. We allow this DKP election so that someone's main character would not miss out on the raid DKP because they were asked to bring their alt. If they decide to keep their DKP on the Alt, that's fine.
      Beep


      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

        MISCELLANEOUS (BUT IMPORTANT)

        "Late Arrivals – If you know you are going to be late for a raid, you may (on your own) find a substitute who will signup for a raid in “your” spot and dropout when you come into the game. The RL will not “hold” a spot for you but will try to fill the raid completely when invitations begin. If you know you are going to be late, do NOT signup for a spot…that will be the responsibility of your substitute."

        It should be common knowledge that I usualy do not get on until about 8:30 server time most nights... and certainly most raid nights (mon, wed, thu and fri). So, according to this rule, even though when I sign up for a raid I put 8:30 in the comments... I shouldnt even sign up (or at the most put myself in que)? AND, I should find an "avatar" to represent me until I get on to take the spot? Hmm.. yeah, I have a problem with that.
        Lead, Follow or get out of my way

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

          "MISCELLANEOUS (BUT IMPORTANT)

          Class Raid Rotation – For those classes who regularly fill all available raid slots with overflow going to the queue (e.g. Hunters and Rogues), the Class Leader for that class will work out a rotation within the class and will move individual players up into signup slots or down into queue as needed to achieve a fair rotation. If you have issues with how this is being handled, take them up directly with your Class Leader or with the senior guild officers (Crebis, Luna, Beep, or Ricca)."

          So, lets say, on a Saturday, the only day I know Ill be on BEFORE raid invites are due to go out, if someone so chooses, I can get bumped from being in the raid and placed in que? I have a definately problem wtih that one for sure.
          Lead, Follow or get out of my way

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

            Originally posted by doofeey View Post
            "MISCELLANEOUS (BUT IMPORTANT)

            Class Raid Rotation – For those classes who regularly fill all available raid slots with overflow going to the queue (e.g. Hunters and Rogues), the Class Leader for that class will work out a rotation within the class and will move individual players up into signup slots or down into queue as needed to achieve a fair rotation. If you have issues with how this is being handled, take them up directly with your Class Leader or with the senior guild officers (Crebis, Luna, Beep, or Ricca)."

            So, lets say, on a Saturday, the only day I know Ill be on BEFORE raid invites are due to go out, if someone so chooses, I can get bumped from being in the raid and placed in que? I have a definately problem wtih that one for sure.
            Doofey, that's something you can work out with your class leader. That's why we're doing it that way...to accomodate special situations.
            Beep


            Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

              You know, it would be nice if this could be changed slightly to add a three tiered system from the Class leaders for judging characters.

              1) Not ready - Need better gear
              2) Retired - Fully geared
              3) Ready to go

              Basically when you sign up or que then 3 > 2 > 1. Giving spots to people who need/want to go and have the gear to not burden the raid over people who don't need anything else from the raid and would take spots from people who do need the gear. And giving spots to people who are over geared over people who has pathetic gear and would only serve as a handicap.

              This way if you have an alt rated 3 you would get preference over a main rated 1 or 2. The first instance would encourge that person to get into a few Scholo/Strat/UBRS/LBRS/DM runs to get better loot and the second instance would give them a chance to get new loot the other person doesn't need.


              We don't really need people in full tier 1 running ZG and forcing us to DE stuff that other people might want/need on their alts. Just like we don't need people with mains dressed in all greens making runs into MC more difficult than neccessary when there are people willing to take a ready alt into the instance instead.


              I know definately that I'd rather run ZG with my priest than my hunter simply because the rep will benefit the priest more and there are more things I need from there for the priest than the hunter. If you want to use the tiers I mentioned above then the following is true:

              ZG: Tarenth - 2, Mirra - 3
              AQ20: Tarenth - 3, Mirra - 3
              MC: Tarenth - 3, Mirra - 3
              BWL: Tarenth - 3, Mirra - 1

              And just for the heck of it ;)

              UBRS: Tarenth - 2, Mirra - 2
              My sanity is not in question...
              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                I agree, Tarenth. I don't think it would make much sense for someone who has gotten all the gear they need from a particular place to ever bump from the raid someone who hasn't. But I like how in your system the fully geared person still gets preference over the under-geared person. Good ideas, and I hope the officers implement this.
                Ninja

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                • #9
                  Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                  The officers are trying to make this simple, not complex. This takes a little give and get between the class officers and the members of the class. The object is to be fair. I will not tell someone "no" unless I have to. It should be apparent..."Don't sign your main up for a ZG run if you have no interest there"...

                  I recently got Talara to 60, so, Crebis will not be doing many ZG runs in the future. I would expect others to do the same.

                  This number system will be hard to track and reference when it comes time to edit the raid site....We want less work, and interaction with our people rather than knowing all of their alts...(I speak for myself here)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                    Originally posted by doofeey View Post
                    "So, lets say, on a Saturday, the only day I know Ill be on BEFORE raid invites are due to go out, if someone so chooses, I can get bumped from being in the raid and placed in que? I have a definately problem wtih that one for sure.
                    I find this funny Doof. I have not once removed you fromt he sign up for this reason. "If someone so chooses" implies that I or other officers do it on a whim. I personally look at the members that are in raid. Just this past week there were 2 no-show hunters on a AQ night. A Hunter from the Q was the only to show...Those same 2 hunters were in the Q later in the week. I did not put them in the raid because I heard nothing as to why they were a no show. I was not feeling guilty for not trying to get them raid time.

                    Tell me your issues before they become issues. I will do what I can for the situation. However, sometimes what would fix your issue, may lead to instability in the guild..."What is good for one is not good for all."

                    I and other officers are trying to please the masses, and some individuals are falling through the cracks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                      Simple is generally good, but its always nice to have something a little complex in the background to fall upon in case a situation arises.

                      As for making a list? It'd actually be rather easy. Just create 1 sticky post and list all level 60 characters in the guild. Then open up the roster and take a look at what gear they have on and judge from there. You would never have to check it more than once a week since we only raid the large instances once a week and you'd probably know ahead of time when someone gets overgeared. Not on the roster? A simple /inspect will fix that and if they haven't been seen in a while then the question will never pop up.

                      As for finding out who is under geared? Class leaders (under the new rules) will be doing that already. Checking back occasionally (which they will be doing already) and updating the list will only take a moment of time.

                      You're already going to have to keep track of alts and mains, adding another line for their level of gear is just an extention of that.

                      I suppose I could make it more difficult with a point system showing quality of gear, experience, and skill at a certain task...but that would be going overboard eh?

                      You're already going to be checking new 60's, alts, and mains to see their general level of gear to clear them for MC. Once they're cleared its highly unlikely they will fall off that list too. Check, set, forget. ^_^

                      If you still think it'd be too difficult then give me an hour at home with a clip board and I'll make the bloody list for you. ;)
                      My sanity is not in question...
                      It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                      Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                        Half of the 60s have not uploaded to the roster, and some have not uploaded in the last 3 months. Not a great indicator.
                        Anahlahna and Friends

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                          Originally posted by Anah View Post
                          Half of the 60s have not uploaded to the roster, and some have not uploaded in the last 3 months. Not a great indicator.
                          I see two things going on...first, it's really not clear which version of what software is needed...and what to do once you have it. The only reports seem to indicate that it isn't working properly or is difficult to do. That's a major disincentive...both the perception of "mess" and the seeming problems when used.

                          Second, I suspect most people don't see much "value-added" for the guild roster. Even if I wanted to check someone's gear, I can only see one set of gear...and we have multiple sets...and most of the stuff is way out of date. ATM, it's an out-of-date fashion show, not a useful tool for the guild.
                          Beep


                          Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                            Originally posted by msheahen View Post
                            I agree, Tarenth. I don't think it would make much sense for someone who has gotten all the gear they need from a particular place to ever bump from the raid someone who hasn't. But I like how in your system the fully geared person still gets preference over the under-geared person. Good ideas, and I hope the officers implement this.
                            Gaviin,

                            This is where the "farming" of MC get's complicated. People get to the point where they get all their set pieces and more and more gear starts getting DE'd. I agree, the need and desire to gear under geared players and "alts" continues to grow. The challenge becomes who do you replace and at what pace. If you start replacing every fully geared or close to fully geared player you're going to significantly slow your progression through MC. You lose the experience factor and good gear is what allows us to go from start to Domo in 3:15 like we did last night. There are guilds out there they have turned MC into UBRS and clear the instance and down Rags in two and a half hours. I'd love to see us make that kind of progression.

                            The bigger challenge is keeping people motivated. Let's not pull any punches here, once you have all of your Tier 1 gear running MC basically isn't much fun. It's long, it's repetitive and the drop rates for a bunch of the stuff are significantly borked. Unfortunately due to Blizzard's game design the folks who have all the great gear need to continue to run and run and run MC so that others can enjoy the fruits of MC madness.
                            “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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                            • #15
                              Re: Raiding with Mains and Alts: Priorities and Practices

                              I have a solution.. How bout the CLs actually TALK to the toons in their classes? How bout they actually INSPECT the people in their classes and THEN make judgements?

                              No sense in adding another mechanized beuracracy that in the end will break down and do more harm then good.

                              How many more conveyor belts are we to add here?


                              Guys, we gotta really try to keep this crap streamlined. ALL this stuff has to work hand in hand with everything else. Once you start adding so many rules, they end up conflicting with something else... like the idea of adding DKP for DEed items and bidding on mats. WAY too much to consider when all these things are added in. In the end, more people get shafted then helped.

                              As for MC "farm status"... in reality, most of the people from last night's 3:15 raid werent uber by any stretch, let alone geared in all Tier 1. And technically, if you were to consider that usually the raid ends 1+ hours later then it actually did, you could just about clear domo and rag in that time if u didnt have to spend 30 mins explaining the fight. So, gear or no gear, it's one-night; largely dependent on how many people leave early and/or get replaced by others showing up late.

                              If anyone noticed (I did and I wasnt even in the raid) we had ANOTHER guildie get 3 items from the raid last night... last time I was told this happened was with BEEP back during the beginnings of MC. This is a good thing and means the gear is gettin better and we're STILL able to distribute it without havin to DE. Every class should really be this way. Where 1 or 2 people per class need stuff. This will effect the raid very little I believe. If you think it will, then basically MC has become the land of Nexus Crystals.

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