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Crebis' Irritability

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  • Crebis' Irritability

    Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
    ...staring at the same terrain and bug renderings over and over gets real tedious. But, alas, it's a means to an end.

    Crebis mentioned this over TS last night (a lil irritably I might add...hehe).
    I see more for this guild. While we toil away in MC (a necessary progression), we need to add content that will help us elsewhere. This does not mean BWL to me. This means mastering AQ20, getting our books and then some. Getting NR gear to help us kill the Green Dragons that are outdoor world bosses. This also means busting down Lords for their special items, look them up on Main Page - WoWWiki. They have a high drop rate and only require 20 people to do effectively.

    I chose 40, because we had planned to also do the calling and then Ony. The guild had other ideas, so we did Ony, the calling, and no Lords. So we lost out on chance for putting Lords down. One thing our guild lacks is the ability to motivate itself on the spur of the moment.

    It is easy to charge into MC on time now. MC is stationary and will be there when we are ready for it. It is time we race other guilds to places across the globe and take the loot that is easily enough ours. Then, after they are down, we head into the places that are definite, like MC/Ony/ZG. This means twice the the math.'s a math equation for you...
    Loot > DKP (<--think about that a sec)

  • #2
    Re: Crebis' Irritability

    If I was able to talk over TS I would've been cursing up a storm over the fiasco that was last night.

    Yes we needed to get Onyxia done. It had to be done and I'm glad we did it. However, it would've been nice if people didn't drag their feet and we could've gotten the Lords taken care of as well.

    BTW, to the people who refer to them as 'royals' you're dead wrong. They are officially called "Lords". It goes Templars -> Dukes -> Lords. The only royals are the twin emperores. Refer here and scroll down to read up on Abyssal Summons.

    Lords are technically world bosses. When you see a world boss up and you have a chance to kill it you have to take that oppertunity or someone else will take it away from you. We had that happen to us. We hemmed and hawed over what we wanted to do and skipped the Lords to do Onyxia instead. What happened? Someone else did the Lords instead and we lost our chance. What would've happened if we did the Lords first and then hit Onyxia? Well we would've done the lords first and then been able to hit Onyxia. I mean you can only summon 3 lords every 3 hours. It would've taken us all of 15 minutes to reach the first camp, clear the area, discuss the strategy, summon, and kill. Afterwards we could cut out the disscussion part and just kill shaving the time down to a nice 5 minutes each. They aren't that hard either. Whoever said we'd wipe on the water lord? Pft...we beat the crap out of him the last time we did Lords (after an AQ20 with only 22 people I might add) no problem.

    For the interweb challenged the lords drop some VERY good loot. I know tanks drool over the chance to get a [item]Earthen Guard[/item]. Casters would give a lot to possess a [item]Elemental Focus Band[/item]. Healers would kill for a [item]Wavefront Necklace[/item]. DPSers would love to get their gurbby mits on a [item]Windshear Cape[/item] as well. Do they drop all the time? No. But they drop enough to make the effort worthwild.

    Oh. By the way. If the schedule says "Molten Core on Saturday and Sunday" its supposed to mean "Molten Core on Saturday and Sunday". Its not an invitation to skip planned content on Friday to ninja Molten Core loot so don't suggest it.

    Seriously. There is a time to farm MC for loot. There is a time to hit BWL to progress. But you also have to make time to try your luck at the world bosses. Guilds everywhere can hit MC and BWL because they're instanced and will be there for a good 7 days. They hit ZG and AQ20 because they're there for 3 days. Killing a world boss is a mark of status because only 1 group can do that every spawn period. It shows we're good enough to get together on a moment's notice and tackle something of raid difficulty on the clock.
    My sanity is not in question...
    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.


    • #3
      Re: Crebis' Irritability

      Bah! Royals, lords.. whatever, they all should feel the sharp intonation of a well-casted spell before they hit the dirt.

      Problem with most of this game as well as others is simply gettin people educated. Other guilds do it with lots and lots of rules that force people into things, but this shouldnt be the way.

      Gettin 40 people hyped to spend time on something they're unfamiliar with can be quite a chore, but in reality it shouldnt be all that too hard to convince people of the merits.

      Personally, I just about dont care what we kill... as long as we're together and it's fun. World bosses and raid-pvp give us these opportunities outside of Instanced Raids.... they're also more "visible", instead of simply hiding inside an MC server.

      The kicker is... You NEED to kill these things to progress in the game. So we GOTTA get people to realize this, and the quicker we do the quicker we'll gain strength... which will make every other place we fight all the easier.

      Tarenth, I'm just about at the point of buying you a sound card... :)


      • #4
        Re: Crebis' Irritability

        I think there are some interesting issues brought up by Crebis and Tarenth. For whatever reason, we either haven't been discussing them, we're avoiding them completely or people are just unaware what the vision is. Crebis, you said "I see more for this guild". Personally I would like to know what your vision is, where you see this guild going and what type of a progression plan you and the officers envision for TG. I think we are all conditioned to work better in an environment where there is structure and direction. I sincerely believe that if we all know where we're going we'll work better together to get there. With that said, I'll throw out some of my questions. Please keep in mind, these are not intended to be a criticism or critique but rather questions and suggestions that are intended to make us stronger and more effective.

        I guess the biggest question is what is the long term direction of this guild? Is there a written development and growth strategy or are we just making it up as we go? I think we need to work out a logical growth strategy that includes not just grinding instances but doing things like world bosses and Lords.

        Why does the raid calendar seem to change from week to week. ZG was all the rage now it seems that AQ is the favored place. Start times also seem to float all over the place. Is there a reason we can't just say all raids start at 8:00pm server time? Also, last week raids were being scheduled with very little advanced notice. This is extremely difficult for those of us with families or busy schedules. I think a solid routine schedule will make everyones life a bit easier.

        Are we pushing out to many raids and are we in danger of raid fatigue? Unless I'm mistaken, we're averaging 5 raids of 20 people or more per week. That's a bit much for a guild of this size. For example, last week we made great progress in AQ, we downed Buru then we just stopped and went to ZG? I think there may have been an issue with class makeup but hell, that's what TG is all about isn't it? Adapt and overcome! I would have rather seen us at least try with the group we have rather than bail on the instance and come back the next night. Instead, another AQ raid was scheduled for the following night. Does is make sense to stretch an AQ raid to two nights just because we schedule it that way? I understand that you don't want to cancel the second raid because it will shaft the people that signed up and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is scheduling AQ over 2 nights.

        Finally, and this is my personal biggest issue. Why do we insist on stretching MC out over two nights? This guild is completely capable of clearing MC from start to finish in 4.5 hours or maybe faster. Moving MC to one night would free up another night to go after world bosses, kill lords or participate in other worldly events. If it's an issue of player availability or accomodating schedules we could have a rotating night. One week it could be Saturday and the next week it could be Sunday.

        Lastly, a comment on the officers and raid leaders. The officers and raid leaders go to unbelievable lengths to accomdate us. It is a pain in the ass of biblical proportions and buttload of work to run and organize a guild. We need to demonstrate a lot more personal accountability. It is our personal responsibility to have our TS working, our CTRaid updated and to be at the instance on time and with all the mats you need for a raid. TG is a fantastic guild filled with some very very talented players. We need to prepare and raid to our capability and not settle for some of the sloppiness that we've been seeing lately.

        Again, let me reiterate, I don't want these to come off as unabashed criticisms. That's not how the're intended. I'd prefer they be used as discussion points and a mechanism for improvement.
        “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook


        • #5
          Re: Crebis' Irritability

          Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
          <<<Insert Long Quote Here>>>
          I approve of Bear's Position on most every subject.

          Not that that counts for much, considering i'm still working on fitting back in.

          Anyways, if i may offer a slightly, detached point of view....

          Coming from Reverent, which is arguably one of the 'best' endgame raiding guilds on the server, I can tell you all that YES. the lords drop nice loot. Yes, world dragons are fun to kill. Yes, it's a mark of honour to be able to form up a raid and take them all down.

          But do we need to schedule it? no. the best times to do Lords is Monday through Thursday. Why? That's when Legacy, Imminent and Prophecy of Ascencion are running their instances. We can get in there, get our loot, and get out and get to work on the 20 man instance du jour. (last i heard, the better horde Endgame guilds run MC and BWL during the week too... which means fewer horde outside, which means better chance to gather Sillydust and get the rep gain buff.
          Also, keep in mind that Alot of people associate Lords with Rep. Even I have that problem sometime. And since I've blasted away a fair chunk of my life playing World of Repcraft, when i found out that the new and revamped Silithus was going to be a huge rep grind, I mentally blocked it from my mind. I've grinded AD rep, TB rep, Zandalar rep, Hydraxian Rep, Timbermaw rep, centaur rep, Ironforge rep, Stormwind Rep, Silverwing rep, League of Arathor rep, and Alterac valley rep.

          NO MORE FREAKING REP. when TG gets to the point where we can run AQ40, We'll get rep. so very, very much rep.

          Anyways. Lords = rep in alot of peoples minds. so let's get rid of that.

          And lastly, Tarenth. I didn't suggest MC to 'Ninja' Loot. I suggested MC so that we could down the first two bosses, who suck up the most time in MC, so that we could have a clear run to the end on saturday. Opening up Sunday for something that could possibly involve a large dragon. I'm now aware that there are people who were *counting* on doing Rags on Sunday... and that it would be an inconveniance to some if we were to clear all of MC on saturday.

          While we did have a few hangups last night, I saw that this guild could easily clear MC in 4 hours.

          Can i suggest a One night MC next week? We can schedule it for friday night, and have Saturday put down as a 'maybe' night in the event that people get too tired to actually finish.

          And, please, guys, Don't think i'm being forceful or trying to turn this guild into Reverent. I don't need to be reminded that you aren't Reverent. I know that. That's why i came back.

          TG is better.
          Last edited by orion808; 08-27-2006, 11:56 PM.

          I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.


          • #6
            Re: Crebis' Irritability

            Couldn't pass a thread of this caliber without adding my two cents...

            I don't think many people have any problem with Lords, AQ, or trying world dragons. I don't think its an issue of not getting dkp there. I mentioned scheduling an Ony raid on Wed and kept checking, hoping that we could set something up. Instead it was kinda talked around but nothing happened until Lords time on Friday night. Its not the dkp value, but the actual loot since usually 2 people get a significant item upgrade on every kill. Doing it post-lords would've been fine, especially since it took us over an hour to get started on it.

            I do realize and appreciate the work that the officers and RLs do on a daily basis. Perhaps scheduling our raids for a few weeks in advance would help do a few things: 1) People could see whats coming up and make plans accordingly 2) Class/Raid leaders could see and have more notice to switch people in and out (esp. on the 20 mans) 3) Make a little less work for the officer who is actually putting up the raids since in one sitting they can put out stuff for a number of weeks.

            As far as set times/days it seems that we have people with various schedules so sliding those things around a bit will probably allow everyone chances to do the things the want to do.

            The other suggestion for the schedule is something we discussed last week in MC. Schedule MC for one night. Leave the day after open so if we run out of juice then we can pop back in to finish it off. OR, better yet, schedule a raid on a weeknight to take out Lucy/Mags ONLY. Then head out to ZG/AQ. We don't need 40 for that. Hell we probably don't need 30 for that. So if we can't get a full raid because its during the week, then we go in with what we got and make the weekend clear a one-night thing. Leaving us a prime raid night to do new things -- BWL, Lords, Dragons, whatever.

            Again, I don't want to sound like i'm complaining. Its alot of work to do what you guys do for us. And we wouldn't be moving along as well as we are if it weren't for the time and energy that the officers and RLs put in.
            Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
            Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
            ...and other distractions of various levels.


            • #7
              Re: Crebis' Irritability

              Actually Manny, that wasn't directed at you. The idea to do Luci and Mag seperately just to shave time is a good one. Not really neccessary since I could probably do it all in one night AND you get more [item]Core Leather[/item] with a one night clear too boot, but a nice way to shave time.

              What really irritated me was when someone followed your suggestion with (and yes I'm paraphrasing because my memory sucks) "The lords only have a chance to drop epic loot, the MC bosses always drop epic loot. If we do MC we'll get more epics and DKP"

              Epic loot is nice. DKP is nice. However both will come at their own pace so there really is no reason to pursue it much. You run instances, you get good loot. You get good loot you get more DKP. If you don't get awarded DKP for an item...guess what? You STILL get DKP for that item, you just don't see it. If person X gets an epic somewhere else then odds are they won't want to get a similar or inferior epic from MC or Ony. That means they won't be spending DKP on that item and you just moved up a slot on the list. There really shouldn't be much more incentive behind doing something new other than "It's fun". Because, you know, it really is fun.
              My sanity is not in question...
              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.


              • #8
                Re: Crebis' Irritability

                I just wanted to throw out a couple things.

                Maybe another idea would be to run ZG and AQ on the same night, reducing our raiding days to give people more of a raid break, and allowing us more days to do world encounter type things or to help the newer people get things done like attunement or getting gear they need to be more effective? We have easily had enough for 2 raids quite a few times, and if its scheduled thing, I think we could easily fill in the raids. It also might give some of our newer members and alts experience taking on lead roles so they can learn. I think this could be a great idea with the changes to raiding coming with Burning Crusade, getting everyone used to stepping up to the lead of their class or such would be very helpful when we are only going to have 25 spots/raid it will definitely be good to be able to field 2 raids.

                Beep can't be everywhere at once, so we really are going to need more "main" tanks if we are talking about 2 raid groups of 25 with BC. I have been lucky enough to see how the warriors work through Kel and I know they do a ton to make sure we succeed, but the more I have thought about it, the more I have realized that Beep is right, that this raid change is going to create a need for us to have more MTs to keep us squishies from taking a beating.

                So I am going to throw this out, and I hope no one takes offense, but it might be useful to try to build a couple of "teams" that could be staples for raid groups to be built around when we run multiple instances at the same time. If this sort of thing was in place, the teams would could get used to raiding together and work more effectively. Its an idea, and its a change, and I know change sucks, but is this something we need to discuss before we are faced with it in BC?

                I am on a new hardware enforced hiatus atm until my replacement ram comes in, but when I get back, I would be glad to help get done whatever it is we need to do. I know the raid leaders have been working their butts off and it can be very very frustrating and tiring. We all need to do what we can to make their lives as painfree as possible. If the other raid leaders just want a break to play and not worry about leading, I would be happy to lead a couple raids just to give people breaks.

                I have been extremely happy here in TG, I have seen lots of things I wasn't sure I was going to get to and have met a ton of great people. This frustration, while annoying, is completely normal when things are in a state of flux. We are in between finishing one stage and moving on to another, that makes for an awkward bit of time as we try to branch out into BWL and finish up AQ20. I agree that a set schedule of raids and a "goal timeline" that said we wanted to be at X point by Y day (Razorgore dead by Sept 15th!) would be helpful as it would give us goals to shoot for.

                No matter what happens, TG is doing great and we are moving along and doing great things in our way, together. As long as we stick to that we will get whereever we want to go. :)

                /cheer TG
                Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

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