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  • BWL tidbits

    In the shadow of last nights somewhat stressful BWL attemp I thought I'd throw up some bits as we continue to work through this impressive challenge. First let me remind everyone, BWL breaks some guilds. I don't see this even remotely being the case with TG. Yes it takes a tremendous amount of practice and admittedly, gets a bit costly. It's also mind numbingly frustrating at times. BUT, I am convinced that once we are successful, we'll be golden on subsequent attempts.

    I know this came up last night during the raid so I though I'd throw it up here.

    The cap on how many Orcs/Mages that can spawn at once is 40. The maximum number of dragonkin is 12.

    Assuming their are 4 mages up at any one time this means we have 36 Legionaires to kite. Since we usually bring 5 warriors this is basically 7 apiece. It should be a VERY managable situation.

    This means that if we bring 4 druids and 4 hunters that we can effectively limit the "lose" Dragonkin to 4. If Doofey can kite more than one kin and one other hunter as well this means we have 2 kin which is VERY managable. I haven't even considered Razor's ability to sleep the kin!

    Now throw in a random fear bomb or sheep and we'll be moving to phase 2. :)

    I really don't see phase 2 as a challenge for us because it's basically a tougher Drakk fight. We've got the gear and the talent, we just need to get to that phase!

    A couple of things we need to do better.
    1. Keep mages away from the platform so their AoE doesn't interrupt the channelling.
    2. Work on passing off the control of Razor to avoid the mind fatigue
    3. Keep up the positive spirit and can do attitude that makes TG what it is. I know we're all frustrated, it just takes a little bit more time and soon we'll be laughing at how easy Razorgore is for us.


    **Editing Note- copied to the main page by Luna, due to the wealth of knowledge presented here.
    Last edited by luna; 09-10-2006, 01:54 PM.
    “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

  • #2
    Re: BWL tidbits

    I'm just going to throw my advice out there from what i have been told you have been doing and a few places that could help things go better.

    1. If you kill the mages as soon as they spawn (usually have a rogue for the casters to assist) you will be left with nothing but legionares eventually and not have to worry about there aoe pwning power.

    2. There only needs to be one person controling the orb (unless that person dies).. The end outcome of this is Razor is going to be so pissed at that one person they will die, but if you have 2 people trying to control him he will hate both of them and try to kill them both after the eggs are down. Now if both these people are in opposite sides of the room this can get very ugly very fast.

    3. The two best places to tank him for phase 2 is either in the corner to the left as you enter the zone or right at the orb. The biggest thing about taking Razor is that everyone needs to stay at max range so that only the tanks get conflagged and point razor away from the raid. Rogues can play a very important job here by picking a single priest and standing next to them and in between shooting razor with a bow, bandage a priest every time they need it or the debuff is down.

    I have fought Razorgore with 2 guilds now and with 2 different strats. I'm not saying these are the only ways to do it, but i'm sure these are things that will make TG very successful and down Razorgore on Sunday
    Thunderhorn:
    70 Night Elf Priest-Lunaar(holy)
    70 Human Mage-Alava(Fire)
    70 Night Elf Hunter-Insai(Beast Master)
    70 Dwarf Paladin-Ginoldor(Protection)
    70 Human Warrior-Revenged(Protection)
    70 Draenei Shaman-Tianora(Elemental)
    70 Draenei Shaman-Fayrel(Restoration)
    Gilneas:
    50 Undead Priest-Eikyl(Shadow)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: BWL tidbits

      This is why we do the controller transfer with pallies. Bubble = aggro clear going into phase 2. Alternatively, we have a tank act as second controller.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: BWL tidbits

        This Noob has some questions...

        1. Can a mage, while fighting the evil mages, not aggro an orc and keep him sheeped?

        2. If the dragon kin are sleeped, do the warriors not break it with their aoe taunts?

        3. When I was kiting a dragonkin, I seemed to lose it to someone. Should I use distracting shot everytime instead on arcane shot 1?

        4. Why not have all the hunters put their pet on stay in one area. Then when we pass something unattented, we can tell our pet to attack it (just to keep it busy).

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: BWL tidbits

          1) No. Because the act of sheeping creates aggro and if no one breaks it with damage then there are only two other aggro creating moves: Buffs/Debuffs, and heals. A sheep may stay sheeped for a while, but the moment it breaks it'll make a beeline for the mage or the healers.

          2) No, because they don't use an AoE taunt. They are applying a nondamage debuff in the form of demo shout which gives aggro without causing damage. Its like a priest casting PW:Fort on someone in the fight, no damage but an action that generates aggro.

          3) Arcane Shot does damage and the aggro you generate is based on the damage. Distracting shot does NO damage, but generates aggro. If combined with the above question you can use Distracting Shot on sleeping dragonkin to boost your aggro, but not break the CC with damage. Once healers or a tank surpasses the aggro caused by Arcane Shot you will loose aggro. The same holds true for distracting shot, but since distracting shot aggro > arcane shot 1 aggro it will take a bit longer.

          4) Because the pet won't last long if at all. Also, getting it from 0 to over the healers/damage dealers is a risky process. Growl has a moderate cooldown and the aggro it generates doesn't scale with the damage and heals people put out now. Also...no one heals pets. Your pet will die and aggro will go back to where it was if it does pull it off. Your pet also cannot kite due to the 85% run speed which means the kite will be short and messy.
          My sanity is not in question...
          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



          Comment


          • #6
            Re: BWL tidbits

            Hi guys, Id just like to throw in my 2 cents. Now I do not know exactly whether you guys have a rule on strats or anything (ie. Dont use other guild's strats) but I am going to give you my advice on Razergore's encounter anyways.

            I am going to assume you bring a standard raid group, lets say, 5 of each class. (Except for Hunters, Warlocks, where 3 are good enough, and replaced by heavy dps, ie, DPS warriors, or Rogues, or Mages, or Extra Healers).

            Let me start off by explaining the encounter's basic information. There are 2 phases. The first phase is where you are to break all the eggs while attempting not to be overrun by dragonspawn, legionnaires, and mages. The second phase is where you kill razergore.

            Historically this first encounter has been buggy (you used to be able to DI razergore and put him immediately in phase 2), and it used to be very laggy due to all the spawning.

            Mobs:
            Legionnaires can be feared, sheeped, sapped, or kited depending on strat.
            Mages can be feared, sheeped, sapped, stunned, mindcontroled, and always killed.
            Dragonkin are to be feared, sleeped, and never killed.

            Max Units:
            Orc Warriors/Mages is 40 combined.
            Dragonkin is 12.
            Mobs will respawn until the cap has been reached. By constantly killing mages for example, you can fill the room with 40 legionnaires and no mages. This is the best approach to a kiting strategy, but not the best strategy overall.
            After killing the controller, and his aides you will have a short Out of Combat stage, in which you can drink / eat in preparation for the main fight. If you dont take forever that is. You shouldnt have to eat or drink though. You can however res anyone that is conflag or killed by razergore if your MC is too slow in controlling him.


            Razergore and Mindcontrolling Position:

            Razergore is mindcontroled for all of phase one by a single mindcontroller. Usually this would be anyone who has experience, a mage, a hunter, a paladin , it does not matter. Normally a hunter is best for this for he can feign death while a paladin can be more useful healing his group as healing is necessary for survival. The position of the mindcontroller is below the main platform, not on it where the orb is actually located. You can touch the orb from below the platform if you hug the wall from the front. This keeps the controller away from AOE and other things that might spawn and attack there.

            Mindcontroller:

            The idea is to go in a pattern rotation to destroy all eggs within 5 minutes. You have several spells on razergore to help you out, but you should only use 2. These would be, break egg, and sleep dragonkin. While druids and such can also sleep dragonkin, you should be on the ball and sleeping any dragonkin that is not slept INBETWEEN breaks as breaking eggs are the number one priority. The last skill that a MC on razergore has is fireball volley. Never use this until the last few eggs are left (ie 5) otherwise Razergore can potentially die to the volley. If you want to play that game however, you can put a Blessing of Protection on Razorgore to buy him some time during the end after using fireball volley to draw aggro off the majority of mobs being tanked.

            Now lets get down to the strategy.

            Positioning (important): Like any Blizzard designed fight, the most important thing first off is postioning, since, they cant really tweak boss fights in terms of hp and damage too far ahead of the softcap of 60 and low incremental gear upgrades.

            The positions will work like this:

            |------N------|
            |34---------56|
            |X-----------Y|
            |12---------78|
            |------S------|

            S = Entrance into encounter
            N = Entrance into Vael's Room (Straight across from the BWL entrance)
            X = Controller Platform (but not where the MC is positioned, see above)
            Y = Opposite Platform
            1-8 = Group positions.

            As you may have noticed, the spawns occur from 2 positions in each corner of the room. They spawn randomly, they spawn mages, legionaires, and dragonkins. Putting two groups at each corner allows you to plug the spawns (given each team of 2 are on the ball) and thus control the amount of spawns in the fight and also reduce lag.

            At the start of the fight everyone positions themselves at groups #1 and #2 postions to engage the guards at the Orb. After they are down (nobody should be dead), you sohuld move to your respective positions immediately as there are 15 seconds before the first spawns occur UNLESS you have taken a long time to actually kill off the Guards/Grethok on the Orb platform.

            The mindcontroller should immediately go for the orb as soon as everyone else engages the platform to clear it. The MC should then proceed to break eggs immediately, starting from the closest eggs to the furthest.

            All groups should have proceeded to their proper places. Main Assists (MAs) should have been assigned to each of the 2 groups, usually a rogue. Each of the two groups should carry 4 healers inbetween which is more than enough, with 2 mages, and 2 rogues at the very least not counting other DPS and warriors. The targets that should be killed are as followed:

            Mage - Everyone focus and kill.
            Legionare - Warrior picks it up and tanks until the group is done with mages. Or you can sheep the legionare if you have a sheep available and kill after the mages are dead.
            Dragonkin - Sleep if a druid is available or if Razergore can, or better yet tank with a warrior. It is important that you KITE the dragonkin as much as possible to buy time and save mana for your healer by using a correct kiting line.

            Now down to specifics for Phase 1.

            Mages: They have two primary AOEs and 2 single target nukes. However, they can be stunned by paladins, kicked, counterspelled, etc. Your groups should assist your rogues and down these guys in a matter of seconds. They are very weak. They are not dangerous at all unless your group LEAKS mages to other groups.

            Legionares: Besides being polimorphed or tanked, these guys are killable as well with Focus Fire. You must assist the MA in killing these guys as you can keep your area clean (no adds except dragonkin) while killing each of the spawners before they have a chance to actually gather up.

            Dragonkin: The most complex as they must be kited/slept. How to do this? Remember the platforms X and Y. As a warrior you can taunt, demo shout, piercing howl, whatever the dragons and gain as much aggro as you can while running -> Up the ramps on X and Y positions then jumping off forcing hte mob to do a detour to get back to you. Repeat this process, and have a healer positioned correctly to provide healing as you get up the ramp and off it as you certainly will go out of line of sight. <-

            Specific Roles of Raid:

            Warlocks, use howl of terror to help your warrior get out of a sticky situation. He however should have only 3 dragonkin maximum on him at any time (given equal spawns, or given unequal spawns, sleeps and fears). Use single target fears to fear dragonkin that are aggroed on Warriors so they dont come back to kill you after they are feared. (important lol).

            Hunters, besides the MC who I have suggested as being a hunter for feign death and not being a healer class, (also div shield/bop does not wipe aggro so forget it unless you have a pro tank that can generate enough aggro above the 5 minutes of controlling before the paladin dies (if he dosent get heals)), hunters should FD and use slowing frost traps to slow down mobs that might appear on the inside spawns of each corner and thus be the hardest place to tag spawners. Otherwise DPS.

            Rogues, Assist your MA in your area (1 for each corner), and DPS like you are crazy.

            Warriors, Tank dragonkin, kite them. Tank Legionares, kite them. Use the ramp as a efficient method in kiting them while your MA will take the legionares off of you if everything is going smoothly. Otherwise be prepared to use your fear to buy time.

            Mages, Sheep legionares first, communicate with warrior. Sheeps can be killed by MA once enemy mages are killed first. Assist MA with DPS. Do not expend unecessary mana on legionares, save it for the mages to down them faster.

            Druids, Use sleep on dragonkin, keep your warriors in your area up. Assist with healing, etc.

            Paladins, your healing is essential to any raid's survival, just like a priest. Make sure you keep your groups up as if you draw aggro you can take quite a few hits wearing plate.

            Note: It is natural to have the warriors kiting 2 dragonkin and possibly 2-3 legionares during the final stages of egg breaking. Dont forget its common practice to shoot a fireball volley off during the last few eggs (5 or so) to draw off all mobs to razorgore.

            PHASE 2:

            All spawned adds will leave and despawn. Razorgore will break from MC and immediately attack the MCer who should FD and start running to avoid conflaguration. The entire raid should run towards the middle of the room avoiding Razorgore and avoiding conflaguration. Fire resistance aura should already be on.

            Attacks:

            Fireball Volley - 1000-1500 with 60 fire reistance. A lot less with a lot more fire resistance and fully resistable with partial resists. Every 30 seconds or so.

            Conflagurate - Frontal cone, that deals heavy firedamage, and ticks for 1000 fire damage per second for something like 6-8 seconds. Also deals damage to all units near it, in a 5 yard radius. This will cause those caught in it to run around confused while hurting everyone near them. This temporarily de-aggros Razorgore. It is why you need 2 tanks at least.

            Melee attack - 500-800 damage.

            Cleave - 1200-2200 damage. Frontal, 160 degrees of death on anything but plate in most cases.

            Strategy: There are a variety of ways to tank him, positions, and such. The most common way of doing it and the easiest way is to tank him directly where the MC is, which is right below the Orb platform, in the front. 2 warriors are needed to tank razergore, as if one is conflagurated (which happens to the main tank), razorgore will target teh second tank until the process is repeated.

            |------N------|
            |---------R---|
            |XZ-------R-Y|
            |---------R---|
            |------S------|

            As you can guess, [Z] is Razorgore. [R] is the rest of the raid not counting tanks or melee dps.

            The tanks should be positioned to the right and left sides of Razorgore so that only one is conflagurated at a time. If more than one tank is used, you should have the double sided tank swap so that the backup tanks (not the 2 primary ones) are on the opposite side of the tank currently being targeted by Razorgore.

            The Rogues/melee DPS should all be on the back side of Razorgore dealing DPS.

            If you want to play it safe, you can just use 2 tanks and focus healing on them, while having everyone deal ranged DPS. Make sure you guys are a good 20 yards away so the cone doesnt hit you IF the tank messes up and aims razorgore at the raid. Razorgore should always be pointing left and right of the platform, never towards the middle of the room where the rest of the raid is.

            Razorgore is killable with just 2 tanks, 4 healers, and 2 mages from 20% so he should be cake as long as you are patient during phase 2.

            If you prefer to go with ranged DPS (provided you have plenty of rogues and mages and other classes to shoot bows/spells at razorgore) it might make the 2nd phase a lot smoother for your first attempt. Then when you guys are confortable, send rogues in to make the dps go up.

            Razorgore is now down. Congrats, you just killed the first cockblock of BWL designed to slow down the top guilds when Blizzard first implemented it. Next up is Vael, a boss that some claim is harder than Razorgore!

            To answer Altor's questions:

            Your first question is a little wierd, but in all, yeah you can sheep an orc, while killing a mage, or vice versa. However I have already suggested you KILL everything except dragonkin to minimize healing needed.

            Anything short of actual damage wont break a sleep.

            It seems like you are a hunter, no you should not be kiting unless using the kiting strategy, which then you'd still be better off using a warrior to kite while you help DPS mages which still have to be killed, and dropping frost traps around. The reason is because if you start taking damage, if you get dazed if you do use aspect cheetah, then your healers have to divert healing and that will inevitably kill both you and your warrior if they arent ontop of things.

            Your last suggestion is a good one, but you should be able to arcane shot anything coming out of your corner without hte need of using a pet. With 10 people per corner, it is not difficult to have a warrior cover each hole, with a mage, and there are a number of combinations of instant attacks to draw a target into your group to hold it in that corner. Your pet wont be able to tank very well or long.

            Again I dont know what the rules are when it comes to strategy but good luck for Razorgore.
            Last edited by Avs; 09-10-2006, 08:40 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: BWL tidbits

              The shield thing use to be true Ark, but with the last patch they really messed with aggro in general and especially in the Razorgore fight. That's why having a single person take one for the team is much better because a) only 1 person is going to die instead of maybe 2 and b) it requires no uneccessary cordination to attempt the exchange. If the controller of the orb dies the tank will have to trouble getting aggro on Razor.
              Thunderhorn:
              70 Night Elf Priest-Lunaar(holy)
              70 Human Mage-Alava(Fire)
              70 Night Elf Hunter-Insai(Beast Master)
              70 Dwarf Paladin-Ginoldor(Protection)
              70 Human Warrior-Revenged(Protection)
              70 Draenei Shaman-Tianora(Elemental)
              70 Draenei Shaman-Fayrel(Restoration)
              Gilneas:
              50 Undead Priest-Eikyl(Shadow)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: BWL tidbits

                Yeah, we always say goodnight to our Paladin that is controlling the orb. You should try it

                "Goodnight Arkamis"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: BWL tidbits

                  We assign a pallie to the orb. He dies, he uses SS and pops back up for Phase 2 once MT1 & MT2 have the aggro stable. Quite an easy transistion so long as the pallie remembers to head for the south corner (to the left as you enter) which is where we tank him. About 50% of the time MT1 manages to take aggro from the pallie and the pallie survives.

                  TL.
                  -=[dMw]=-TeaLeaf
                  deadmen.co.uk
                  Vanilla cleared in vanilla. TBC cleared in TBC.
                  Heroic WotLK cleared. Awaiting Cataclysm.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: BWL tidbits

                    Originally posted by Phantom View Post
                    Yeah, we always say goodnight to our Paladin that is controlling the orb. You should try it

                    "Goodnight Arkamis"
                    Pft. We don't say goodnight to the paladin we laugh at them then move along with appreciation to their sacrifice...and silent amusement at them getting PWNED.

                    Kinda like letting Arkamis pull the guardians in Ossirian's room. Everyone sits there and watches in anticipation with the hope that Arkamis is flattened by a meteor in route and we get a laugh out of it. ^_^

                    Then we laugh some more when Arkamis talks Manny into pulling as well. Thereby getting a similar treatment.

                    Good times.
                    My sanity is not in question...
                    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                    Comment

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