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  • Low-level instances

    Are there any guild-based low-level instances being run or planned?

    Just wondering if there are any early level guild folks around.
    Karma

  • #2
    Re: Low-level instances

    As a whole and in the general sense the guild is a casual end-game guild. That means our official focus is Onyxia, ZG, AQ20, MC, and BWL. Eventually we have hopes to move into AQ40 and Naxx as well as anything new that pops up in the expansion.

    HOWEVER. We all have alts sitting around that we like playing to take a break from epic geared chaos that costs several gold to repair each scratch and ding. If you poke around at different times you might be able to scare up a few members with their lowbie alts to do an instance run.

    It should be noted that there is a certain level of personal responsiblity the guild (officially) holds you to for your own training and gear. Its expected for you to run instances and other things on your own or PUG (pick up group) about as much, if not more, than with a guild group. Why? Not because we're mean or unhelpful. This is because the skills and experiences you pick up in a completely random group of mostly strangers will help you more than any amount of hand holding with other guildies who have seen it all before.

    Also...PUGs are just plain fun. When things don't go 'as planned' you get more of a feeling of accomplishment or pride when you pull your bacon out of the fire.
    My sanity is not in question...
    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Low-level instances

      what lvl r we talking?
      powered by Windows 7

      . . . .

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Low-level instances

        Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
        As a whole and in the general sense the guild is a casual end-game guild. That means our official focus is Onyxia, ZG, AQ20, MC, and BWL. Eventually we have hopes to move into AQ40 and Naxx as well as anything new that pops up in the expansion.

        HOWEVER. We all have alts sitting around that we like playing to take a break from epic geared chaos that costs several gold to repair each scratch and ding. If you poke around at different times you might be able to scare up a few members with their lowbie alts to do an instance run.

        It should be noted that there is a certain level of personal responsiblity the guild (officially) holds you to for your own training and gear. Its expected for you to run instances and other things on your own or PUG (pick up group) about as much, if not more, than with a guild group. Why? Not because we're mean or unhelpful. This is because the skills and experiences you pick up in a completely random group of mostly strangers will help you more than any amount of hand holding with other guildies who have seen it all before.

        Also...PUGs are just plain fun. When things don't go 'as planned' you get more of a feeling of accomplishment or pride when you pull your bacon out of the fire.
        The counter to that is that maybe being in a Guild means that one should be able to rely on that Guild for aid should they need it, and not have to look outside of the Guild for assistance.

        Particularly since once those individuals become useful to you as an endgame palyer, you will impose the needs of the Guild on them rather than rework your strategies to suit the player.

        I find it the height of hubris to tell any Tactical Gamer that they have to look outside TG for any ingame help, on any title we play.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Low-level instances

          Originally posted by Mateo View Post
          The counter to that is that maybe being in a Guild means that one should be able to rely on that Guild for aid should they need it, and not have to look outside of the Guild for assistance.

          Particularly since once those individuals become useful to you as an endgame palyer, you will impose the needs of the Guild on them rather than rework your strategies to suit the player.

          I find it the height of hubris to tell any Tactical Gamer that they have to look outside TG for any ingame help, on any title we play.
          I should probably state right out front that I am not an officer and can in no way, shape, or form give you an official answer about what TG is and is not.

          I should also probably state that what I'm about to say is my opinion on the matter based on over a year of playing with different people, guilds, and yes...a LOT of PUGing.

          A guild is a network of people brought together to achieve a certain goal. This means helping each other succeed at the official target the guild is pointed at. This makes it quiet easy to say "we, as a guild, are going to molten core and clear it in under 5 hours" and significantly harder to say that without the guild system to support it. You could PUG it...but if you don't have the unity of a guild without even the pretense of a guild system to support it it could prove to be...difficult.

          That being said if the official guild focus is 'casual end game' then the majority of its members are probably also focused towards 'casual end game' as well. This means their interest in the instances like BRD, Strat, Scholo, UBRS, LBRS, ST, and DM are waning. For the same reason level 60 players don't run BFD or SM in a 5 man group, people just grow out of the instances and no longer feel the drive to return there anymore. Why? Various reasons. Mostly because if they no longer need something from there they no longer feel the need to invest the time and money going.

          Lets broaden that scope a little. If at any given time there are maybe 1500-2000 players on line and playing WoW. If, at this point in time, you consider that maybe half of them (750-1000) are playing one, have an alt that is, or more than one alt at level 60 you get quite a substancial number to pick from. Asking the hundreds, if not thousands, of avalible of level 60 characters on line at a given point in time will poll you back a number of results for interest based on the willingness or need to go to an instance. TG has roughly 170 accounts with over 360 characters. Polling from the 15-30 people (quite a few have 1-2 60 alts and numberous lowbie alts) on line at any given time while not raiding, taking into consideration that those who are currently raiding feel no need to go to certain instances, will pull back significantly less interest.

          The above does not take into consideration the 'whim' factor. This is the occasional "eh...sure. Got nothing better to do" answer you will get from people who are technically beyond the instance. They will do it for fun or for you personally, but not for personal gain. If you try to put together 5 man instance runs from just the guild personal pool while counting on whims then you're destined for failure most of the time because the number of people to make the run happen may just not be there or online at that time.

          Of course there is another factor for consideration. People, as a rule, are lazy. This is true for everyone regardless if they acknowledge it in themselves or not. We also don't like wasting our time. WoW provides its players with a number of options for activities short of an on-line (sanctioned) casino. If you try and get a PUG and fall short on the required balance or number of people then asking for help from guildies will give you a better chance of getting it. Getting 4 other people from the guild to drop what they're doing and try to from an instance group while hoping the class balance works is harder than getting 1 or 2 guildies to help out a group that's ready to go. This is true in a lot of things actually. Its actually harder to find a group than it is to finish a group that's ready to go. Why? Because the people who first join the group may have to wait for the group to fill out and waste time waiting for others to show interest. Kinda like why even if we only have 20 people for Onyxia we don't say "We need 20 more people" but "We have a few spots open". As such if you poll for people from the guild and get only one or two responses...run with it. Just pick up a few more people from the general population to fill out with class balance and go on your run. Simply giving up and say "Well, we don't have enough people" just discourages people from going with you a second time.


          Of course...everything I talked about above just considers one of the many investments you have to make while playing WoW. Everyone who wants something is required to give up something else. To sound cliche, that would be equivalent exchange. Want a new piece of equipment? You can invest time to farm it with the knowledge on how to get it or the money to buy it. Want to run an instance? Gotta invest the time to get a group, time to run the instance, and the knowledge of how to clear the instance.

          Time is expensive. We only have 24 hours a day, 365.25 days a year, and if lucky roughly 80-100 years in our life span. Asking for people to give up time is a risky venture.

          Money is expensive be it real or imagined. We invest time in order to get money at various rates of exchange. Some people get large sums of cash easily with little investment of time and others have to and spend a lot of time to get it. Regardless that money is earned and is rarely given out freely if not earned at an equal rate of exchange. (IE: Begging = bad)

          Knowledge is cheap. If you ask a question and someone sees it who knows the answer or has that knowledge they will probably give it to you freely.


          But what about investments that are already made? This is a saddly neglected part of the guild that I'm surprised people don't take advantage of more.

          If you are part of a guild then you have a network of people willing to share their knowledge with you. While this drive to learn is geared towards new and harder end game instances, the knowledge we picked up from other things is still with us. People will gladly share this knowledge with you if you ask them about something they know about. Of course, don't lose patience or feel neglected if you don't get an immediate answer. People are either too busy to answer, did not notice your question, or simply no one knows the answer and feel silence will let you know that. Ask again later and you may get a different answer.

          Everyone, also, has 2 professions they have been working on (at least I hope they have) since they started playing. They're usually always using them when then oppertunity appears and seems beneficial to them. Example: A level 300 miner will mine a thorium vein if they see it simply because its there and the gems, ore, and stones they get off it has value. A level 300 herbalist will pick any high level herbs they see simply because they have some value. If you need something that a different profession can provide (be it gear or materials) you have people you can ask to help you with that. Asking for spare thorium or spare dense stones will get people to glance at their bags for anything they can give to you without suffering themselves. Even if its one or two pieces its more than you have before and less you have to do yourself. Who knows? Sometimes you might get Luna in a totally noob moment and she'll send you everything she has then later lament on Teamspeak about how she suddenly needs thorium and gave all her supplies away. ( ^_^ ) Also if you express the need for something people are more likely to just 'pick it up' as they go by with you in mind. Ricca needs elemental fire, elemental earth, heart of fire, and herbs for pots. She expresses this need. Ergo we start sending and picking herbs for her (and the guild's) pot addiction. Ask and yee shall recieve.

          The guild, as a whole, also picks up some materials and gets donations of materials that could be used in place of asking for extras. In ZG we pick up Souldarite, Bloodvines, Bat leather and Tiger leather in droves that (most of the time) get sent to the guild bank. People occasionally make hive runs in silithus for combat quests and pick up Carapaces and Chiten. Its pretty safe to say that if you need some extra gear and the guild can provide it there will be some effort made to provide you with the gear you need. Heck, I'm surprised newly 60 rogues and rogue alts don't get themselves outfitted with Primal bat leather, new feral druids and druid alts don't get Blood tiger gear, new level 60 hunters and hunter alts don't inquire about Spitfire or Bloodsoul, and new level 60 warriors/paladins and warrior/paladin alts don't ask about Darksoul or Enchanted Thorium gear. Then again, that's probably because they haven't asked.

          Luna once mentioned it over TS and guild chat so its pretty safe to call it true. The guild bank serves no purpose if people don't use it or the items in it. If the value of the item is not something outrageous (OMG! Can you spare 30 arcanite bars?) then its a safe bet that if you need something and deserve the investment then you'll get what you need. Its also a safe bet that if the mats are common or plentiful in the bank you won't have to do much more than ask, however the more expensive or hard to get materials (arcanite bars, essences, gems, larval acids) may fall upon you to acquire yourself.


          To summarize this long and probably boring post lets just say this.

          There are many things a guild is 'good for' and can provide you with. If you aren't getting what you think you want, need, or deserve then perhaps you are just looking at what you want without looking at what you probably need and deserve. Its also possible, that you just aren't asking for the right things in the first place so the answers you are getting might not be what you want to hear, but is what's true at the moment.

          The guild is there to help you. Not to do everything for you.

          Its quiet easy to say "OMG! No one wants to run Scholo" and feel put out that people don't think you're in much of a predicament.

          Its a little harder to feel neglected if you translate that to "OMG! I only got 3 people in the guild interested in spending 2-3 hours running Scholo. I could've asked for pick ups to fill those last two spots but decided not to go instead and gave up thereby disbanding and dissapointing the other two people."
          My sanity is not in question...
          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Low-level instances

            Tarenth likes the sound of his fingers hitting the keyboard... ;)

            Karma - Almost everyone here as an alt or seven that they play when they aren't raiding. Post which instance(s) you are working on and you'll almost always get some interest of people with alts that level. Sometimes asking in guild chat will get some people as well. Sometimes PUGs are unavoidable. I generally use them as a last resort since the % of the time the are crappy is much greater than the % of the time they are good. But when they are good you have a few more people to throw on your friend list that are roughly the same level which may help you for the next group you're trying to get together.
            Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
            Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
            ...and other distractions of various levels.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Low-level instances

              And if you can't, let me know, I will run you through some of the early instances with Saj just to get your quests done and get yourself some cash from all the drops.
              Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

              | | |

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Low-level instances

                Thank you all for responding.

                I know that TG has become an excellent end-game guild. As Luna reminded me, I signed the charter for the guild back in the day, so I remember when it wasn't so.

                I've played WoW and quit it a number of times in the past couple years, and this time I was trying to find out if anyone in the guild ever played low level stuff as a matter of course.

                I guess I was trying to see if there were any lower level people to play with regularly, and I suppose the answer is that there aren't.
                Karma

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Low-level instances

                  Originally posted by Karma View Post
                  Thank you all for responding.

                  I know that TG has become an excellent end-game guild. As Luna reminded me, I signed the charter for the guild back in the day, so I remember when it wasn't so.

                  I've played WoW and quit it a number of times in the past couple years, and this time I was trying to find out if anyone in the guild ever played low level stuff as a matter of course.

                  I guess I was trying to see if there were any lower level people to play with regularly, and I suppose the answer is that there aren't.
                  I'm not sure that answer is 100% accurate. The mainstream of the guild is focused on end-game stuff. BUT...there are almost always some lower alts playing...or who COULD play if asked/needed. With the BC expansion, there will be a LOT of new Shamans looking for companionship...
                  Beep


                  Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Low-level instances

                    Tarenth, in response to that insanely long post:

                    Your perspective is yours, not everyones. I for one have no issue helping anyone who needs it if I can, thats what guildmates do for one another. I don't view my guild as a tool to accomplish a set of goals, I view my guild as a set of friends and family who enjoy playing the game a certain way with each other for the benefit of all. That means that I take care of my guildies if I can, whether they are level 60 or level 1.

                    Yeah, it sucks running Gnomergan and SM for the 16 millionth time, but helping guildies never gets boring.

                    Oh, and time is free, you just have to make time for the important things, like each other.


                    Oh and Karma, a friend of mine is starting the game shortly, and Kelilyse and I will be leveling characters with him, so I will watch your level and see if I can't drag you along with us when we are messing around if you want :).
                    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                    | | |

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Low-level instances

                      Actually, I just like thinking about something before making an arguement for or against it. Then provide reasons and examples that support my case in some way. Besides, my keyboard is so old it doesn't make those cool clicky noises anymore.

                      I love misunderstanding. They make things so...interesting. ^_^

                      I do believe I stated on the second line that all that spiel is an opinion and observation on the general way things work. It also holds true in most, if not all, cases.

                      Be honest. Sometimes when someone asks for help you just have to say "I'm sorry, I'm logging off", "Sorry I can't, don't have the time to do that", or "Little busy right now, ask me in a little while". I love you all as much as the next person. I'll also help out as much as possible when and where I can. But there are also times when you just want to finish something before you go off to help someone with something else.

                      Besides, most of that post was in reply to Mateo's stance that "Infrequent Guild runs and need to PUG = no guild help". A great deal of that was why certain demands just can't be met and even if guild runs aren't always going out on demand there are a number of ways the guild helps you that doesn't involve running you through 2-4 hour long instances.

                      And Karma? Just because the guild is pointed towards end game doesn't mean no one will run low level instances ever again. It just means there won't be many, if any, low level instance runs done officially with a page sign up and the whole shebang. There are, however, a number of people with lowbie alts (myself included) that would love to help you do instance runs if you express a need or wish to do them. Of course you'll also have to contend with the raid schedule in order to catch people when they have time. Most people won't go on runs right before (think 1-1.5 hours) raid invites because they want to be free to get the invite and not too bogged down in an instance. Afterwards there are an equal number of people who log off because they're tired from raiding as there are people who stick around to do extra runs. If you can't find enough people to make a full group, then there's always the option of just supplementing a PUG with guildies interested in going.


                      So in answer to the original question (which seems to have gotten lost at several points although I keep trying to answer it in direct and round about ways).

                      No, I don't believe there will be many low level instance runs planned similar to how raids are currently planned.
                      Yes, there are guild runs to low level instances being done, but mostly on a 'on request' basis.
                      Yes, guildies will help you with runs, but don't expect all your runs to be guild based.
                      No, just because guildies can't go with you all the time doesn't mean we aren't willing to help you. Sometimes its because we just can't even though we'd love to.
                      And no, if you can't find enough guild support to do a run that doesn't mean you shouldn't do the run. If you want to do it and can't find guild help to fully support it then a PUG is a viable way to get it done.
                      My sanity is not in question...
                      It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                      Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Low-level instances

                        Mateo, I know you wholeheartedly think that my opinion is a cop-out, an excuse, and a signal of poor teamwork and laziness.

                        However, I will always stand by my opinion that playing with out-of-guild players is the best way to develop talent. You said once you wanted a raid training program: that's it. Learn the s*** situations in a pug, learn the limits of your class, other classes, and the right and wrong things to do to develop your talent from level 1 to level 60.

                        I never suggested that ANYONE should have to PUG attunements, or PUG to get quests done. In fact, I think that when it comes down to questing, being with your guild is the BEST way to do it, because not only can you help other guildies (sharing quests, etc), but they can also help you.

                        However, in the off-time, one should never sit around and wait for a guild run. Grind the instance. Grind the zone. Fear not making mistakes, because those mistakes will show you the limits of what one can do with one's gear.

                        If we're in ZG and you didn't make it in, by golly get into a Strat pug! Get gear, get money. Hell, send the greens you get to the bank for disenchantment or distribution to the lower level members!! Have you any idea how many DOZENS of pieces of gear I've sent to Tgbankerone after getting them from non-guild groups? Or shards/essences/materials?

                        These are ALL things that help everyone, and this is something EVERYONE can do regardless of their level to help out the guild. This game is dependent on so much, and the best way to become a strong link in a chain is to temper your skills at every opportunity.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Low-level instances

                          I'm not going to weigh in on the heavier issues here, having survived the Sandbox by bare scrapes a few times:)...but there are several new players to the guild that will be looking for low level instance runs: Morrick and Auraind for sure. Keep a look out for them. If you ever see Sabre Six on TS and need help, ask...I'm all about team.

                          Later,

                          Allen

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Low-level instances

                            Originally posted by Arkamis View Post
                            Mateo, I know you wholeheartedly think that my opinion is a cop-out, an excuse, and a signal of poor teamwork and laziness.

                            However, I will always stand by my opinion that playing with out-of-guild players is the best way to develop talent. You said once you wanted a raid training program: that's it. Learn the s*** situations in a pug, learn the limits of your class, other classes, and the right and wrong things to do to develop your talent from level 1 to level 60.
                            The only thing you learn from PuGs is how to compensate for other players weaknesses. The only times that I learned anything about my role was when I off tanked with Icist or Beep, and watched what they did. So saying that the PuG is the best way to go is, to my mind, a further cop out.

                            As a former officer of the Guild, I have seen the endless criticisms of players that do not know their role, but noone in the Guild ever lifted a finger to help train them.

                            Since the endgame content is so strategy specific, you would think that the good of the team, that is, the Guilld, would be best served by bringing players along, and working out the kinks in their game that they learned as solo players.

                            That's what we have to do in every other title we play, because, let's face it, the majority of players on the web are not our type of players, and are, to put it bluntly, morons.

                            Put that way, what can I really learn from a random assemblage of players on Thunderhorn?

                            I never suggested that ANYONE should have to PUG attunements, or PUG to get quests done. In fact, I think that when it comes down to questing, being with your guild is the BEST way to do it, because not only can you help other guildies (sharing quests, etc), but they can also help you.
                            Since I resigned as an officer, I do not have access to the quote. When I talked about attunement, I was told, in no uncertain terms, to PuG it.

                            I wonder what reason I have to even think that the Guild has anything to expect from me when met with that response. It's not a question of better or worse: there are player shortages all the time, and while not all players are capable of raiding every night, that makes them no less a Tactical Gamer than any of you who can.

                            Shortages can be met internally by helping those who are in the process of attunement on either their mains or alts get the quests done so they can contribute.

                            However, in the off-time, one should never sit around and wait for a guild run. Grind the instance. Grind the zone. Fear not making mistakes, because those mistakes will show you the limits of what one can do with one's gear.
                            We've done that for 60 levels. You know that as well as anyone. The grind gets dull, and we want in the endgame, but since we are not attuned for anything we are, in effect, blocked.

                            The interesting thing that I find is that once you do become attuned, and you haven't been trained, you are thrown into the mix, and told what to do: what gear you need, what strategies to use, and in the case of warriors, what spec the Guild needs.

                            Since the Guild has not done anything to help these levelling players (with a few personal exceptions), then what reason do I (as a random player) have to listen?

                            I have been told to PuG for 9 months, thank you very much. I don't see any teamwork or respect on the part of the Guild, so I fail to see why you should then expect me to take one for the team once I become useful to you.

                            All in all, I find the responses in this thread fairly lacking in anything to do with the principles of Tactical Gamer.

                            Teamwork does not mean just taking orders. It also means helping other players that do not know how we play, or want to learn how we play, into the fold. I'm not the best leader by any stretch, but I have taught my share of players how to play the TG way.

                            Teamwork also means that giving some time for the team works both ways. Those of you who are raiding find it very easy to say "grind and farm and level and then we will see." That is not teamwork: that is selfishness disguised as teamwork.

                            I for example, did not ask to have someone attune me. I asked for help getting attuned. Something every last one of you has done. Instead of taking a month to get attuned for each and every thing, if a couple of "teammates" gave up some of their time to help me, it would have taken mere hours. Your experience can save a player alot of time.

                            So I laugh when I hear that there are other things that I can do: PuG, farm, grind, give to the bank, or anything else. That's like saying that you have been called up from the minors to be ballboy!

                            Either being a member of the Tactical Gamer guild means something, that is "we're all in this together, one for all all for one, we are a team dammit!" or it does not.

                            For me, it doesn't matter: I've resigned, both as an officer, and as a Guild member, and my subscription will end in October. I wasn't going to air my thoughts publicly, but if it helps the Guild get on the right path, so much the better.
                            Last edited by Mateo; 09-18-2006, 06:17 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Low-level instances

                              Mateo, just tell me when you need help and I will be there.
                              Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                              | | |

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