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Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

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  • Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

    Like MC for example...

    Something like...
    1. can have at most 2-3 green items (rings and neck pieces not included).
    2. must have X number of ZG or AQ20 GUILD runs. It's important we state guild so each member can learn how TG runs a raid.
    3. Must read, AND UNDERSTAND, the tactics for each boss fight in the instance. Ask questions in the forums if you don't understand something.
    4. Must be willing to die, maybe a lot, while you learn the instance.
    5. Be able to LISTEN to the raid leader on TS. To listen is synonymous with not speaking.

    Of course, this isn't official in any way...It's just an example of what, I think, we need to post for some of the new and up and coming guildies.

  • #2
    Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

    I couldn't agree with you more! Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to weigh in with specifics (I'm sitting @ work), but have been wondering about this for a while now. For me personally, the gear thing is the biggest concern. Before joining TG, I went crazy with PUGs to gear myself up in Tier0 and equivalent in the hopes that I'd be allowed in an MC raid at some point. I think that coming to those types of raids under-geared is just as bad (if not worse) as coming in not understanding (or being able to execute) boss strategies. Being under-geared means you aren't pulling you weight; from this priest's perspective, it also means that you eat up a lot of my mana in healing (or rezzing after you die). Whatever the case, that's one weak link in the chain that we don't generally need in our raids. Obviously there can be some exceptions in certain cases, but those cases need to be defined ahead of time and rules should be enforced.

    Hopefully I'll be able to elaborate more in this thread with some concrete ideas to help guide this discussion.
    70 Priest

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    • #3
      Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

      Such requirements are generally subject to exceptions which breaks down the very purpose of having requirements. ;)

      Take the druid situation right now. We can't exactly turn down even a moderately undergeared druid if its the only druid willing to go with us. -.-

      I do believe there is a statute somewhere that puts that under the general list of responsibilities of the class leader. Getting the character profiler (the thing that does the updating to the roster) means you might get approved sooner since they can always check your gear instead of having to look at you or ask you on line.

      Anyhow, as people get overgeared we get a little more leeway in how much of a difference in gear we can take. Yes, an undergeared person will be a drag on the raid and a 'weak link' as it were, but the overgeared person will be able to pick up the slack and help make sure the raid succeeds.

      My only hope is that people express more of a wish to be useful in a raid and so get better loot on their own instead of waiting for MC loot to drop for them. -.-
      My sanity is not in question...
      It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


      Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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      • #4
        Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

        Even though it was in my head, I didn't put it in my post...Each class have their own rules. A hunter isn't going to be hit as much as a tank so they should have different requirements. But there can be some common ones...

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        • #5
          Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

          As has been said, there is no way to impose a "hard" requirement that will cover all situations.

          The class leaders have discussed this at length and have a "loose" requirement that gear for MC should be 5 of 8 Tier 0 or equivalent.

          Experience needed is generally that you should have "sufficient" ZG and/or AQ20 experience with our guild...following enough of the dungeon instances (notably UBRS) to give raid experience.

          With a strong raid group, we can "get by" with a player or two who may not be up to standard...at least for the first few bosses. For end-bosses like Ragnaros, if you are undergeared, you won't survive and will be a mana-sink for healers who will try to keep you up despite your lack of survivability...which imperils other raiders.

          I really want everyone who is interested to experience end-game content...and to come along for the good gear that is part of that experience. I also will relate that I ran UBRS about 30 times (as a 20 man instance), ZG about the same, and AQ20 about half that before setting foot in MC.

          We want each player to have fun, but you also have a responsibility to be prepared. If you have ANY questions...about gear, tactics, experience, etc... talk to your class leader(s).
          Beep


          Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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          • #6
            Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

            Another aspect of this situation is that, ideally, once people are fully geared in everything they can possibly want from MC, they will be ONLY queuing for MC, but signing up SOLID for BWL, thereby allowing the next generation of undergeared guildies to progress in gearing just like we did, minus competition for spaces.

            I have 6/8 GS now, as soon as I get the other 2 pieces, my tier2 pants and my leaf (yeah, i guess i finally need to face the facts and do the friggin epic quest... sigh) I plan on signing up only as a last-minute place filler in MC. I know there are several hunters itching to get their purples just as bad as me, and those of us in full tier 1/partial tier 2 will have to lead the charge in BWL, repair costs be damned. In this way, the gearing process should progress naturally.

            All this is, of course, different for tanks, I imagine.


            "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, you cannot say, or guess, for you know only a heap of broken images, where the sun beats, and the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, and the dry stone no sound of water." --T.S. Eliot

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            • #7
              Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

              Originally posted by Altor View Post
              Even though it was in my head, I didn't put it in my post...Each class have their own rules. A hunter isn't going to be hit as much as a tank so they should have different requirements. But there can be some common ones...
              Originally posted by beep View Post
              With a strong raid group, we can "get by" with a player or two who may not be up to standard...at least for the first few bosses. For end-bosses like Ragnaros, if you are undergeared, you won't survive and will be a mana-sink for healers who will try to keep you up despite your lack of survivability...which imperils other raiders.
              I have a question in regards to both these statements and scenarios where these statements hinder the guild moving forward as a whole.

              First and foremost, we do have an imbalance in some classes as mentioned above which cause the gear and dkp system to be flawed to a point. By flawed I mean that the "hardcore" or main raid group that is committed to learning new instances has to wait for gear upgrade. If we keep allowing a free-for-all signup with no priority to the main group, how do we advance to newer instances?

              Well in the case of the hunter class, we to this point do not have a hunter with the full set of Tier 1. And by not prioritizing which group has priority we essentially as a class will still have to run MC another 200 times(exaggeration, I know but could happen) before we can catch up to the gear of the other classes that have complete sets. It is a sort of natural progression but by not setting some sort of guildline it will take twice as long if not longer to push forward.

              I believe that some guilds do have these guildlines as far as prioritizing the main group of raiders for each class so that the guild can push forward to newer instances. We have prioritized certain items for MTs in the past and seemed to push our progress forward significantly. Why can't we do the same for other classes?

              I am a very patient person but it is a little frustrating to see that as you put your time into these instances that there is no reward for doing so. By this I mean that with the dkp as I try to make the raid stronger by trying to improve my dps(taking the leaf and sinew which to a dwarf hunter with +5 to guns isn't really worth it as far as the cost) and FR(taking the fireguard shoulders that no one wants but needs for higher bosses in BWL) that I have to dig myself out of a dkp hole while seeing a newer person to the raid pick up Tier 1 pieces without putting the time in or giving as much thought to gear as I have. I know this must sound like I'm crying about stuff but I'm not. I just want to voice some of my concerns and maybe offer another perspective on this issue.

              I know we are a casual endgame guild but as Crebis said "I see bigger things for this guild."

              *Gets off soapbox.*(And yes Doof, it is a stack of soapboxes for us dwarf. :p)

              Just my two cents. Thanks for listening. :D
              "Remember that all things are only opinions and that it is in your power to think as you please."

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              • #8
                Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

                I am working on a guide for precisely this issue. It is tentatively titled "Ding! I just hit 60. Now what?"

                Gimmie some time- trying to balance family, school and the game. I'm getting there!

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                • #9
                  Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

                  Originally posted by Muirc View Post
                  It is a sort of natural progression but by not setting some sort of guildline it will take twice as long if not longer to push forward.

                  I believe that some guilds do have these guildlines as far as prioritizing the main group of raiders for each class so that the guild can push forward to newer instances.
                  Do you realize you said "GUILDline" twice instead of "GUIDEline"?

                  All kidding aside, you raise some good points on the DKP thing as well. It is somewhat frustrating to have to dig yourself out of those holes week by week in MC and Ony, without getting any reward for contributing to the pioneering efforts in BWL...
                  70 Priest

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                  • #10
                    Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

                    lol....it was a subliminal message....hehe

                    Not to mention I was typing that out at work so I was in a hurry before someone walked in on me. :D
                    "Remember that all things are only opinions and that it is in your power to think as you please."

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                    • #11
                      Re: Maybe it's time we define each end instance requirements...

                      I will be posting Mage raiding requirements soon. (need to learn to link other posts for links to already posted quest strings first.)
                      Anahlahna and Friends

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