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  • Issue

    Normally I would just take something like this up in the game in tells. But I have gone that route and found the answers to be less the concluding.

    Why is it that people that helped up get to where we are in BWL now being told that they cant even sign up for those raids without having at least 2/8 of T2 armor? For that matter why are people being told they now have to have X and when they have X then they are told they need Y and when they get Y then they get an oh btw you now need Z? WTFO?

    I personally would have no problems with people being told okay you need better armor to raid if it was actually posted some where!

    Btw I have other bitches that I would like addressed but let’s just go one at a time.

    Please officers give me you best answer as to why things are they way they currently are and what you plan to do to fix this issue.

    Looking forward to your reply here, not in game, not by pm, not by e-mail but HERE. If its not here then I will C&P it here, cause I'm not the only one wondering about this. I just seem to be the only one willing to being it to this level.

  • #2
    Re: Issue

    I too have been wondering what the exact set up is.. I have perused the raid rules etc and nothign is set in stone as to what you can and can not sign up for other then mains virsus alts and arriving on time etc...
    ... It's not that I don't like you, it's just that I like stepping on things....

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    • #3
      Re: Issue

      Im a bit confused? Do you have a specific incident of reference?

      Thanks.
      RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

      Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

      I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

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      • #4
        Re: Issue

        Your class leader has final say in whether or not you are ready for a raid with the group. Each class is different in what they need for FR, armor, mana, aggro reduction, etc. Sometimes the gear limitation is to set a certain amount of higher instance runs. Many of us have run scholo upwards of 100 times to try to get our gear out of there. A lot is learned about group dynamics and individual capablities in those more difficult runs. Those skills are needed in the higher raids. While pvp armor for rank 13 and 14 is far superior to the Blue raiding gear, the skills are different, and there is no aggro management factor in pvp, which is an important factor in raid operability.

        In short, there are 3 reasons for a class leader/ raid leader to put a gear limitation forward.
        1. Survivability. If you die too quickly, you are not much use to the raid, this includes spending all your time vanishing/bandaging/feigning to keep yourself alive.

        2. Damage/healing output. Some bosses need to be taken down quickly for the raid to survive. If you're dps/healing output is deficient due to gear, you may be a detriment to the raid over a better geared class member.

        3. Experience. A gear requirement may be a polite way to quantify more raiding experience needed before a harder set of bosses, where everybody needs to be on their "A game".

        Unfortunately, since different classes have different needs and requirements, it may seem unfair. Class leaders are human too, and it is sometimes unfair, but they do the best with what they have. If a deficiency is brought to their attention, they need to deal with it. Sometimes people slip under the radar. Finally, when we are short on people, we often overlook shortcomings and take anybody. This is the largest problem as I see it, because it sets a precedent of somebody who is not ready being allowed to go somewhere they shouldn't be.

        Razorgore is not a gear fight, so almost anybody with good raid experience should be allowed in there, but we more or less have him down. Vael is very much a gear fight for FR and dps. Since substitutions are not made regularly, people who might be up for Razorgor, but not even close to Vael, are being allowed into the Vael fight in the interest of getting farther. If everybody who was not gear-ready for Vael dropped group after Razorgore, we still wouldn't have had a go at Vael.
        Anahlahna and Friends

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        • #5
          Re: Issue

          lol, I kind of find that funny, bwl is all Skill > gear, except for the warriors, they are a gear dependant class. 2/8 t2 set? You expect 40 people to have 2/8 tier2 when you havent even killed rag 20 times yet? GG Only thing that should be looked at really is the rogues FR, warriors FR/Tank gear, priests? Thats honestly funny, I chuckled in my morning class when I read this.

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          • #6
            Re: Issue

            I couldn't say it any better than Anah. A player's "readiness" for particular content is at the discretion of the class leader. We are told by the folks who are leading us what we will need to have for each respective fight, and we do our best as class leaders to make decisions based on that information.

            There is a guide in progess that I hope will see the light of day this week regarding end game guidelines, but even that guide says that ultimately, the decision on readiness is left for individual class leaders to decide.

            Is there something specific that is bringing this concern up? I personally haven't heard this 2/8 T2 assertion, and would like a little bit more information so my class is adequately prepared for the upcoming challenges.

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            • #7
              Re: Issue

              I am very intrigued, what happened?
              Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

              | | |

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              • #8
                Re: Issue

                I dont have but 1 piece of tier 2 so i think it is more about FR gear than anything..I know I tell the rogues they have to have have 120 unbuffed to start mc and even more to start BWL.. But I also agree with Anah it is up to the class leader... The class leader knows what gear you have and if they think you need more FR gear then thats what you need.. I know with the rogues i try to help them get thier fr gear and I try to help them get to a point in which they can start mc or bwl.But it depends on the class one class can get away with having less FR than another class..

                Now i dont know about this 2 piece of T2 to get into bwl but i also believe that they should have some mc exp with us before starting Bwl...And not just take them in bwl before they even have 1 piece of t1 just because razorgore isnt a gear fight then they wont understand why they cant do vael as well..Then here we go again with the well i helped with this fight but i cant go in for that one. If there not geared for at least the first 3 fights then they shouldnt get to go to any of it..
                Candrice 63 Warrior
                Ricca 70 Rogue
                Machelle 70 Mage
                Enya 74 Druid

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                • #9
                  Re: Issue

                  Have to admit - I'm curious at which class we're talking about.

                  2/8 Tier 2 seems unlikely for the majority of our raid... we just haven't killed Rags enough times. If anything I think we have quite a few people that really need to get more and/or better FR gear. Perhaps once we get to see Luna's Guide the class leaders can use it to post some class-specific requirements/recommendations.
                  Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                  Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                  ...and other distractions of various levels.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Issue

                    What I find interesting is that when someone volunteers to come to say BWL.. the first and or second boss, because we couldn't get enough people to work them successfully.. and then when we take down said first boss or even second, all of a sudden the raid is filling up and now those people who did come even once are not allowed to come until this said requirement is met. Especially when this requirement is "told" rather then written anywhere.

                    I don't have a problem with the class leader having final say on whether you are ready or not, I believe the issue is this:

                    Once you open that place to anyone when you need them, they should be allowed to get a chance to sign up when you might not. (in other words when the guild needed them they were good enough so to say that now they are not is rediculous IMO. ) They get there on their class leaders calling, so that pretty much says the class leader thinks they are good enough for the area.

                    And yes I have heard of a few guildies in this predictament. The latest one being last night, and I know they have already tried the whole tell chain line with the class leader etc.

                    It's all well and good to say your class leader has the final say, but when they ok you once and then say next time you are going to have to wait till you have XYZ finished is rediculous. I had that happen myself a while back and got into battlegrounding pretty much nonstop while I waited for final word. It's frustrating and pretty much looks like its not what you know but who when there is nothing in stone and your response is class leader has final say, even when you are allowed to go one time, but not the next.

                    Whether the others in this situation want to publicly voice or not is up to them, I know this is an issue because it happened to me and I know cause it's still happening to other guildmates who have voiced the issues to krishler and I and we are just peons .. I wonder why .. if you are an officer.. you are only now "hearing" of the problem. I know for a fact I ranted enough on it myself.. is it only going on to a select few of us?
                    ... It's not that I don't like you, it's just that I like stepping on things....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Issue

                      I'm not sure what the specific issue is, but I'd be very surprised if anyone was told that they'd need 2/8 tier 2 to go anywhere that TG is going at this point. That doesn't sound right.

                      Regardless, I very much agree with what Anah said. I think the class leaders have been generous with whom they have let into our raids (BWL in particular). People who have no tier 0 gear have been allowed into MC. People who only have one or no pieces of tier 1 have been allowed into BWL. Now, I think that's kinda silly, but then again I'm not a class leader. :-)

                      And it's not really just about the gear itself. As Anah said, a lot of it comes down to the experience one gains by grouping up and earning your tier 0 set. Good raiding skills are typically not learned via pvp. Plus it might not sit well with some other regular raiders when they see someone in greens and pvp blues let into a raid for which the regulars spent countless hours earning their tier 0/.5/1 sets and learning the game. Obviously we're having continuing issues with filling our BWL raids, so indeed exceptions have to be made from time to time. But I'd rather fill an open slot with an experienced raider over an under-experienced/geared person who may bring better class balance. In other words, I'd personally prefer seven hunters and four warlocks, to six hunters and five warlocks, including one who hasn't seen much of anything but battlegrounds and scholo a couple times.

                      Anyway, I look forward to the official policy being revealed. That should help to clear this up.
                      Ninja

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                      • #12
                        Re: Issue

                        I think the leadership of TG does a good job avoiding alot of the garbage that goes on in other guilds as far as cliques and "friends" getting invites over others. The invites are posted sporatically to alleviate camping. Most people try to help others farm FR gear and trade raid spots out. A number of people that have their MC gear have given spots up to help others along.

                        Class leaders setting guidelines for gear is a good thing. For experience as well as stats some recommended level should be set. Whether its written in stone or not is up to the class leaders. Though written up would be helpful.

                        For most fights I'd rather go short than take somebody thats just not ready. I know that sounds harsh and I don't intend it as a personal attack on anyone. I also would rather see us bring more mages or hunters or whatever class we are heavy on at the time rather than worry about class balance. And for the most part the RLs do that.

                        The class leaders are pretty friendly people as are most of us here so I hope no one feels like they can't post issues to the forums and get them discussed and worked out.
                        Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                        Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                        ...and other distractions of various levels.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Issue

                          My thoughts:

                          a)Tier 1 is basically a joke now
                          b)you can get much better gear spending more time in 20-mans and rep grinds, not to mention BGs
                          c)in a bit over 1 month ALL our "requirements" go out the door... so PLEASE, dont start NOW with arbitrary rules. When BC comes out, those with any common sense will quite quickly have Tier 2 equivalent gear and uber stats just from lvling. MC will be for mats and BWL for "filler gear".
                          d)With AQ40 looming (as soon as the broodlord dies), BWL will be the new MC and we'll be desperate for raid-members with the added 40-man in the schedule.

                          Our biggest problem is filling raids and keeping them full. Once this is solved, then maybe we can talk about gear. We have like 5 more good 40-man weeks left before things start to change. That's really not a lot.

                          Also, everyone needs to learn that the "tier system" isnt the be-all end all. There is gear out there that is MUCH better then a lot of the gear u'd get in MC/BWL. Not to mention the million enchants, librams, rings, buffs, etc. you can use to supplement your deficiencies; so labeling someone simply due to GEAR is not a good idea in my eyes, unless you really know your gear stats.

                          Dont get caught up in scrolling through someone's gear, not seein purple, and immediately coming to the conclusion that this person can't raid MC/BWL. Every toon has a separate story, a separate strength; largely dependent on who pushes the buttons.

                          I will say, I have noticed well-geared tier 2 people gettin outplayed by tier 0 people. "Reputation" and skill goes a long way for who gets into raids and who doesnt. Part of what's good about TG is we're small enough to know eachothers inherent strengths and weaknesses; the weaknesses get addressed and fixed to the betterment of the guild (and I'm not talking about gear weaknesses). Any jo-blow can say "go get 5/8 tier 1 and then talk to me". But it takes a REAL leader to monitor, control, and maximize Raid tactics within classes and groups.

                          Strong guilds can down nearly any boss in any gear. I will take a quote from manny and twist it a bit:

                          "Dont use your gear as a crutch"

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                          • #14
                            Re: Issue

                            I hope an officer is speaking to whoever made this decision to get answers why. This does seem like an arbitrary decision that would be ill-informed as we don't have very many of even our hard raiders who have 2+ teir 2s.
                            Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                            | | |

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Issue

                              I don't disagree with Siu but let me say this. While the "gear" may not be the end all, I think the experience, tactics, strategies and teamwork we develop are the most important part to our progression as a guild.
                              “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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