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  • Raid Manners

    OK...I'm in my "Dutch Uncle", grouchy old man role, so LISTEN UP!!

    Raid Manners is the subject.

    1. Pay attention to the raid leader. Ignoring specific instructions is epidemic with us and has to stop.

    2. Do what the raid leader says. No arguments, no half-hearted efforts...period. If the RL makes a mistake, humor him. Just do what you're told. Die if need be. Let the RL lead!!

    3. Don't pester the raid leader. They have a hard enough time. Pester your Class Leader if you feel the need to pick on someone. Anyone who wants to lead is welcome to do so, by the way. Unless you want to lead, STFU:) !!

    4. Don't suggest improvements while in the middle of the raid. Do so AFTER the raid. We're NOT going to stop raiding, btw, so we have lots of time to fix things.

    5. Don't speak unless it is really, really critical. I mean REALLY critical! If you are not a raid leader or class leader, you probably shouldn't speak at all...seriously! If you think an individual could benefit from your advice, then whisper them. If everyone in your class could benefit, then use your class channel. If you think the entire raid could benefit, use RAID CHAT!! Remember that unsolicited advice is tricky...and usually not very welcome.:icon_eek:

    6. Be understanding if someone screws up. It happens. Next time it might be you. If it was you, own up to it. We may not be happy, but we WILL forgive you and expect you to do better next time.

    7. Remember that the fun in this game is reaching our goals together. Stardom or elitist glory is NOT what we want or encourage. This is a complicated rock/paper/scissors game that gets exponentially harder at the higher levels. Be a good team player so we all have fun.

    Oh yeah...one last thing...keep the MT alive. If the MT is alive at the end of the fight, we win!!! :icon20:
    Last edited by beep; 10-16-2006, 03:46 PM.
    Beep


    Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

  • #2
    Re: Raid Manners

    *cheers Da Beep* Great post!
    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

    | | |

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Raid Manners

      /signed
      “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Raid Manners

        Agreed...

        Except for Vael where the majority of your main tanks and a few (un)lucky souls will be left smoldering corpses by BA. In which case use /point /laugh then toss them a rez. :D
        My sanity is not in question...
        It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


        Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Raid Manners

          Beep, I luv ya and agree with most of your post;

          BUT! :)

          Good comms is key, not a quiet one. I've played many a tactical MMO/FPS (many with well over 40 people in the channel) and virtually all required its members to speak up. And like it or not, end-game raiding IS tactical MMO. Silence will get you no where except to a raid that's no fun, even if it's productive... sure, the RL gets to be a dictator but for the 39 others it sux - especially if we WIPE because we dont communicate. (which happened repeatedly last week)

          Knowing WHEN to speak and WHAT to say is the real issue here. And dont think that by not saying anything at all that you're not doing anything wrong - you are in many ways making it worse. I'd rather have a talkative raid then a bunch of "Judas'" that say nothing while the raid gets pounded on. As far as CLs talking, most of them dont and are quiet on TS. What happens in class chat is separate and takes place before and after an engagement, so it doesnt count.

          Aside from strat talk during an engagement... good "banter" before and after is almost as important. Sometimes the raid needs a kick in the ass, good humor, or a bit of discipline- all of which make the raid more fun and the raiders more deadly.

          "Good soldiers dont just follow orders" right?

          So in the end, keeping your comms efficient is the real goal in my eyes. Try not to babble during an engagement. Keep your talk short, sweet, and to the point. Expect and anticipate the lag delay. "Combat-comms" are where it's at. Perfected, it's a beautiful thing and a skill unto itself (yet another stat not seen on your character page).

          Honestly, I've lost the skill being in WoW so much (ask Luna and Mateo). But I'd like to get it back and see others take onto it also. Or at least a viable compromise. Definitely not just plain silence.

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          • #6
            Re: Raid Manners

            There is a time and place for everything.

            For example:

            While doing Razorgore it is appropriate for a healer to say "<name> down. Extra healing on <assigned target>" or for a Warrior or Hunter to say "<name> down, mobs are loose". It is not appropriate for a mage/rogue/warlock to say anything because, honestly, no one cares if they die. Its like saying "DPSer number 6 of 31 down. No one give a damn and keep doing what you're doing"

            If you have anything important to say it probably should be announced in the format: :<name> <condition> <response>

            Kinda like
            Haletma silenced, extra heals to main tank.
            Krishler dead, battle rez please.
            Arkamis out of mana, innervate please.
            Beep dead, pickup on off tanked mob.

            This provides us with a name to the voice which we could mistake in the rush of things, a simple to the point statement of whats wrong, and a course of action to take to fix the problem. Saying "I'm dead" does not provide us with who or why its important. Get used to talking in the third person. ^_^
            My sanity is not in question...
            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Raid Manners

              Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
              There is a time and place for everything.

              For example:

              While doing Razorgore it is appropriate for a healer to say "<name> down. Extra healing on <assigned target>" or for a Warrior or Hunter to say "<name> down, mobs are loose". It is not appropriate for a mage/rogue/warlock to say anything because, honestly, no one cares if they die. Its like saying "DPSer number 6 of 31 down. No one give a damn and keep doing what you're doing"

              If you have anything important to say it probably should be announced in the format: :<name> <condition> <response>

              Kinda like
              Haletma silenced, extra heals to main tank.
              Krishler dead, battle rez please.
              Arkamis out of mana, innervate please.
              Beep dead, pickup on off tanked mob.

              This provides us with a name to the voice which we could mistake in the rush of things, a simple to the point statement of whats wrong, and a course of action to take to fix the problem. Saying "I'm dead" does not provide us with who or why its important. Get used to talking in the third person. ^_^
              Great examples Tarenth. Those are battle-comms.
              But, saying that you have died if your role is important is imperative no matter what your class is. Examples: locks during Moam, mages during domo, rogues during a few bosses in ZG, etc. If you die no matter what, you SHOULD at the very least type it in class chat, if your role is important or not. This can pay dividends later in the raid.
              I remember one instance during Ony I just stumbled upon the fact I was the last mage (and not in a whelp group). I should not have to "stumble" upon this info.
              A great example of speaking your condition is Razor; if you dont speak up things will have to go perfectly for the raid not to wipe. Our last Razor downing was complete improvisation due to good Raid leadership and communication between classes. Same could be said for a chunk of the Vael fight.

              We need to get used to not calling wipes when the smallest speedbump shows up in our raids. Usually during these moments the RL will NOT be able to react quickly enough, nor keep his eye on the entire raid - so people will have to speak appropriately. Ideally, an IMPENDING disaster can also be avoided via good comms. Sometimes it's best to say you're GOING down, instead of "I'm dead".

              Lastly, the better comms the raid as a WHOLE has - the more the RL can keep himself in the fight and concentrate on dealin his own damage.

              I'm sorry if this is a little converse to what a lot of people think, and I know the fantasy genre is a bit different, but in the end I guarantee you will feel more productive and have a lot more fun.

              -Siu
              :)

              P.S.
              People need to work on not getting upset if they get talked over in TS. TS is not a perfect program and you MUST anticipate the lag. If you get talked over, simply repeat yourself at the most appropriate time. No more, "Guys.. SHUT UP" - that's not gonna cut it. Ideally, you will all have TS_Overlay, which will show u someone is speaking before they do.. or even better, if you own a Logitech G15; get the TS add-on. This has the added benefit of knowing who's talking even if they dont announce themselves. Like it or not, in many games/guilds it's required.

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              • #8
                Re: Raid Manners

                Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
                But, saying that you have died if your role is important is imperative no matter what your class is.


                Sometimes it's best to say you're GOING down, instead of "I'm dead".


                -Siu
                :)
                I can't disagree more with this Si. It hard enough to listen to what the raid leader is say without all the extra people saying they are dead (or about to be dead). We, as a guild, relly need to understand when and when not to talk on comms. Go ahead and type it in raid chat or class chat...I can't say that I read them either during fights as I am concentrating on doing what I need to do.

                It is very annoying when the RL is saying something in the middle of a fight and he is having to talk over other people needlessly talking.

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                • #9
                  Re: Raid Manners

                  First, I should say that I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to abusing comms. There are times when chatter is OK, there are others when it's not. Anyone that has ever listened to military comms knows there are times when it is very structured and quiet, there are also times when it appears to to be absolute choas. The key to effective communications is to get out required or critical information as concisely as possible.

                  If you die, something along the lines of "Bear down" is all that is necessary. Any explanation of why, how, what is unnecessary. I have enough confidence that given the appropriate information that our raid leaders will make the necessary adjustments. They can't do that however if they can't speak.

                  Squelching all comms sucks the fun right out of the raid, too much noise makes it impossible for us to reach our goals.
                  “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Raid Manners

                    Originally posted by Altor View Post
                    I can't disagree more with this Si. It hard enough to listen to what the raid leader is say without all the extra people saying they are dead (or about to be dead). We, as a guild, relly need to understand when and when not to talk on comms. Go ahead and type it in raid chat or class chat...I can't say that I read them either during fights as I am concentrating on doing what I need to do.

                    It is very annoying when the RL is saying something in the middle of a fight and he is having to talk over other people needlessly talking.
                    I think you dont actually disagree with me. Never did I say the RL should have to talk over people. Never did I say we need constant chatter. What we NEED are simply battle-comms, as Bear said in above post.

                    Ex: (Razorgore) If Hunters are kiting and are about to die, wth good does it do if they say nothing and get DEAD? If it's not known that all kiters are down then how do you produce a solution? If kiter or tanker goes down then they should say "kiter down", etc.

                    Ex: (Rags) If you're the last mage and the sons are about to pop; what do you do? Do I need to really answer this question?

                    I'm sorry if people talking over people annoys you, but it's largely a fallacy of the TS program. Simply being quiet isnt the solution. This is why you see most high-end games these days coming with their own voice-chat system and chat overlays. WoW should not be the exception to the rule.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Raid Manners

                      I think both sides of this comm discussion are pretty close. When comms gets crazy with people talking it makes it hard for me to hear appropriate instructions. So its important that people know if they are "key" for each individual fight. The examples brought up so far still leave the vast majority of the raid not really needing to talk much if at all (during the fight). But key situations I think its fine for Player X to say "Player X Down".

                      I almost never talk on comms and for the most part I don't ever really need to. Except for calling out an innervate or perhaps a "Pistos down" during Ony, Rags or Razor.

                      One thing that really helps me not be surprised is having my own class windows open (in addition to the group windows). That way I know which other priests are alive and how mana is so if I can be ready to pickup when needed.
                      Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                      Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                      ...and other distractions of various levels.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Raid Manners

                        Originally posted by Pistos View Post
                        I think both sides of this comm discussion are pretty close. When comms gets crazy with people talking it makes it hard for me to hear appropriate instructions. So its important that people know if they are "key" for each individual fight. The examples brought up so far still leave the vast majority of the raid not really needing to talk much if at all (during the fight). But key situations I think its fine for Player X to say "Player X Down".

                        I almost never talk on comms and for the most part I don't ever really need to. Except for calling out an innervate or perhaps a "Pistos down" during Ony, Rags or Razor.
                        Agreed but there have been times where I have run through the 5 man instances(DM, Scholo, Strat...etc.) with Pistos, Gaviin, Max and a few others where not a word was spoken and everyone just did their job. I guess it comes with experience and not skipping content. :row__681:
                        Last edited by beep; 10-17-2006, 04:15 PM.
                        "Remember that all things are only opinions and that it is in your power to think as you please."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Raid Manners

                          Yes Muric but if Pistos dies on a 5 man run you won't need anyone to tell you cause you'll be dead soon too :)

                          The World of WoW is a whole lot simpler in the world of 5 and 10 man. I for one am looking forward to the re-emergence of the small party instances.
                          “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Raid Manners

                            Originally posted by Muirc View Post
                            Agreed but there have been times where I have run through the 5 man instances(DM, Scholo, Strat...etc.) with Pistos, Gaviin, Max and a few others where not a word was spoken and everyone just did their job. I guess it comes with experience and not skipping content. :row__681:
                            Makes it sound like we're boring :D. Alot of that comes with grouping with the same people. And thats a luxury we don't really have with 40 man groups where each week the group makeup is different than the next. I know what Max, Dryne, Shiro, and Gav are going to do 99% of the time because we've ran those things a million times together. Not every run is quiet though - and I know you already know that. We all are still learning during every raid what to expect from each other and ourselves -- and its an ongoing process. For example, I've been in ZG with Zeeg about half a dozen times now and I'm finally able to keep him alive on AOE packs occasionally. The first few times I had no chance, but now I know to watch for him a little more.

                            Comms are very very helpful. The Vael fight was "busier" than most and it probably will stay that way since we have more people that are watching individual aspects of the fight. And that is awesome because that's how it needs to be. However, for the bulk of fights I doubt the vast majority of us ever really need to say much of anything. And as long as nobody dies we should never even need to say "Player X Down"
                            Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                            Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                            ...and other distractions of various levels.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Raid Manners

                              Allow me to add my two cents here.

                              Regarding the "so and so down" idea. As a raid leader, the majority of my interface is dedicated to leading a raid, and the secondary purpose is doing my own job. I assure you, 95% of the time, by the time you're able to say you're dead, I already know and, 90% of the time, have already formulated a backup plan and need to call it out. By saying "so and so is down," unless there is a pre-formed battle plan (such as what healers often have), I need comms to restructure the raid.

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