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You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

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  • You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

    Here are the signup stats so far:

    Molten Core (11/3/06) 37/40 signed up up with ELEVEN queued

    BWL (11/4/06) 29/40 with 7 queued
    BWL (11/5/06) 26/40 with 6 queued


    THAT is the problem and I find it very sad and very dissappointing :(
    “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

  • #2
    Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

    Agreed. It's very disheartening.

    And by the way, it has nothing to do with the days of the week. No matter where we put MC... Friday, Saturday, or Sunday... people sign up for it. And no matter where we put BWL, people won't commit to it. Even when we do get decent BWL signups, people just don't show up, and we end up having to resort to our friends lists. That's fine for filling up a raid, but it does nothing for our progress as a guild or our consistency from week to week.
    Ninja

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    • #3
      Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

      It happens in most guilds..... I'm sure you guys will work through it :D

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      • #4
        Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

        Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
        Here are the signup stats so far:

        Molten Core (11/3/06) 37/40 signed up up with ELEVEN queued

        BWL (11/4/06) 29/40 with 7 queued
        BWL (11/5/06) 26/40 with 6 queued


        THAT is the problem and I find it very sad and very dissappointing :(
        FYI, both Beep and Talara are AFK for the weekend...as may be others.
        Beep


        Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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        • #5
          Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

          Originally posted by beep View Post
          FYI, both Beep and Talara are AFK for the weekend...as may be others.
          We know that you won't be here beep, and Orion has been having issues with work schedules and hasn't been able to come to BWL as often as he (or us!) want.

          I'm not worried about you, or any of the other officers beep. it's the people that Avoid BWL cause they know it's a repair bill and possibly no loot for them.

          BWL is a team effort. we need everybody to be there for the wipes, or we'll never get PAST the wipes.
          _________________



          I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

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          • #6
            Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

            Keep in mind that some are not going to BWL due to gear...either they think they are not ready or a class officer won't allow them to sign-up...think about it.

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            • #7
              Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

              Originally posted by Manetheren View Post
              it's the people that Avoid BWL cause they know it's a repair bill and possibly no loot for them.
              I'd say you hit the nail on the head with this one...
              70 Priest

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              • #8
                Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                I think saying that people won't sign up for fear of repair bills is a guess, at best. I have yet to see any concrete evidence to support this assertion- just assumptions and guilt trips.

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                • #9
                  Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                  Originally posted by orion808 View Post
                  Keep in mind that some are not going to BWL due to gear...either they think they are not ready or a class officer won't allow them to sign-up...think about it.
                  If this is the case then our current system of class limits is failing us miserably. Either we don't have enough to attend or if we do get enough they're not geared well enough? At the risk of being overly critical, what exactly are the class officers doing if they're not managing their class roster to have an appropriate number of properly geared players to make a solid attempt at BWL. If they don't currently have the authority to make those roster decisions we need to give it to them IMO. Give the class leaders the authority they need and make them responsible for filling the roster. I understand that there are nights when we just can't get all our best geared players in game but this is getting ridiculous. If there are other issues, we need to get them on the table and get them resolved. It's time to stop worrying about making everyone feel warm and fuzzy and get serious about making some progression.

                  I can't even begin to describe how mind numbingly frustrating this is. It's time to make some tough decisions or lets stop pretending we're an end game guild. By rough estimation I've been to BWL close to a dozen times. I'd estimate I've spent well in excess of 125g on repairs and I've gotten exactly zero items. I'm not saying this because I'm crying about loot. I could really care less cause the only thing I really want out of BWL is a sword that Neph is carrying. At this rate, I'll see Neph somewhere around November of 2007.

                  This isn't just about me, there are a lot of people putting in an extraordinary amount of effort and we're showing minimal progression.

                  Maybe it's time for me to take a step back and take some time off. This is bothering me FAR more than it should.
                  “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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                  • #10
                    Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                    Originally posted by Manetheren View Post
                    it's the people that Avoid BWL cause they know it's a repair bill and possibly no loot for them.
                    Very true Manny, this is the point IMO.
                    sigpic

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                    • #11
                      Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                      The repair bill issue is only part of the problem and is largely an effect as well as a cause. "Circular logic?"

                      Like said before in this thread by Bear and Crebis, and as I've said in the "BWL Attempt" thread. A LOT of the Onus for raid roster filling is left to the Class and Raid Leaders. If they dont get it done, the raid wont be full.

                      I can to an extent understand why gear is an issue in some fights; but what I CANT understand (as I've said before) is why Raids arent full for fights that for the most part dont require really phat gear.

                      So far, and we've heard even Ark say this... the content in BWL so far isnt dependent on gear AT ALL except for MTs and sometimes rogues. So really guys... there's no excuse for not filling a BWL-raid up to Broodlord. Please dont argue with me on this because it's already an established fact that's not really even one that I came up with; the "fine-line" between geared and not geared doesnt exist here... the debatable points are too finite. (dont forget that many classes can fill in for others)

                      So, moving on... RLs and CLs need to let the guildies know they can sign up and encourage them to do so.

                      Once all that is said and done and people do their jobs appropriately in-game, then we'll be able to avoid all the in-fighting that goes on during Raids that FURTHER makes people not want to sign up. (dont pretend to not know what I'm talking about)

                      From a mages perspective and as the most over-recruited class I'd like to suggest other classes follow suit. Perhaps we just need to open up the recruiting a bit? Hell, even AFTER we established that we were overloaded with mages we still were pulling in people. Deleo is now confirmed and Starrocketer is all but actually in the guild (he probably will be soon). I know we're lookin for a sweet-spot, but perhaps that sweet-spot puts a bit too much pressure on the people who believe they absolutely HAVE to be there for the raid to succeed (such as MTs).

                      I wholeheartedly disagree with pulling large amounts of people from outside to fill raids. This does nothing but undermine the guild in the long run. Newer guildies dont get to learn the fights nor take advantage of loot gains. As well, we cant develop any kind of "cohesiveness" because there's constantly different people in key spots (and all spots are key). It also is a lot more fun sharing success with guildies, but also gives us the ability to more easily remedy our weaknesses when we fail (instead of just trading up for a better player). And I ask you this: if we're constantly pulling from outside then why are we not recruiting??? The outsiders may as well have a TG tag right?

                      Ultimately, if we succeed like we should in BWL then we wont really see sign-up issues at all... because quite simply it'll be more Fun.

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                      • #12
                        Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                        well its my anniversary im hoping to be going out...
                        Candrice 63 Warrior
                        Ricca 70 Rogue
                        Machelle 70 Mage
                        Enya 74 Druid

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                        • #13
                          Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                          imho.. the people that sign up for MC on the drop of the dime.. but are waiting for us do 'get used' to the fights in BWL first.. are greedy... they dont want to pay the price of blood to learn new boss fights.. they want to have their hand held with a raid group that already knows the fights... so they can get their epix ... its wrong.. but nothing we can do
                          powered by Windows 7

                          . . . .

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                          • #14
                            Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                            We have plenty of 'toons who are ready for BWL. If folks aren't signing up, then you need to ask them why.

                            Don't believe for one minute that any class officer is holding back someone who can reasonably survive and contribute in ANY instance!!!! And, Class Leaders are NOT out trying to strongarm any member into any raid. TG is not that sort of place. We don't take roll call to figure out who didn't signup. I hope we never have to. We'll simply recruit players who want to progress and learn the fights. If lack of body count at signup is because of too few guildies (which I DON"T believe), then we can solve that in short order. The companion to that is that we will have more people on the bench and in the queue when we DO figure out BWL and have it on farm status. Think about it.

                            Fear of repairs, fear of dying often, frustration at not "winning" over bosses? All these may play a part. My take on "why" signups are lacking is that too many think BWL is too hard and therefore too frustrating for them. Winning is fun...dying is not. Gear is good...repairs are not. It may be time for us to suck it up and figure BWL out. It is NOT the same as MC with different bosses. It requires much more thinking and independent action. It requires all these to be figured out on the fly. It IS harder than other places we've been, but we are more than capable of figuring it out.

                            IMO, the key to progression as a guild is working together and figuring out how to coordinate and win in the difficult instances. If we wimp out over Vaelstrasz and the early BWL bosses, we aren't the guild I believe us to be.

                            I want to hear why folks aren't showing up for BWL like they do for MC...sound off! Here's your chance to educate us all!
                            Beep


                            Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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                            • #15
                              Re: You want to know why we're not making better progress in BWL??

                              Every person I've asked that's not in the Raid when we're in BWL either says no one asked them to come or that they didnt have the gear. This doesnt account for the people that arent online at the time, but it does speak volumes when those people are sitting there while we have people from the outside in the raid.
                              Unfortunately, even if this is a small portion of the total signup loss it's significant to us because we're not really a super large guild and we dont have raid rosters.

                              Edit: a lot of this has to to with what Beep is saying about people THINKING they're not geared enough

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