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  • #16
    Re: What are you waiting for?

    I'm confident that our guild leaders are doing what they can to help the situation. I know that its alot of work and I know that all of us do appreciate it. Opening recruitment up for more people seems the obvious first step. Personally I'd much rather have to sit out raids because we had too many than stand at the entrance of BWL hoping that people will come.

    And yes, we can start MC with less than 40 and pick up people on the way (which is not an option with BWL). However, we are generally full or very very close when we start.

    Is it frustrating that we've stalled in BWL? Of course. But I believe in this guild and I don't have any doubt that we'll be moving forward soon.
    Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
    Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
    ...and other distractions of various levels.

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    • #17
      Re: What are you waiting for?

      I agree with Pistos here, open recruitment, maybe by referral. All of us have real life and there will be times when we are not able to attend, but would like to see guild as a whole progress.

      My feelings would not be hurt if I had to miss a raid because too many of my class signed up. I have (3) 60's and can find plenty to do in game. Plus, if someone had to drop, I would be there to fill the spot.
      "As Above, So Below"

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      • #18
        Re: What are you waiting for?

        Originally posted by duck View Post
        That is not a valid indicator of anything other than what ppl are willing to sign up for.

        It does not show actual attendance. For me, I frequently don't sign up for events that I don't think I can attend. Sometimes my plans change and I can make an event, usually as a sub. This is not reflected in the raid calendar.
        I disagree Duck. What it shows is that people are willing to make time for MC but not for BWL. We've gone so far as to even move the raid nights around in the event that scheduling was an issue. So we can overfill an MC run on a Friday night but we can't get 30 for BWL? That's just unacceptable.
        “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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        • #19
          Re: What are you waiting for?

          Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
          I dont want to see ANY days where we need more people. I like seeing full raids. Chair, I've actually been scolded a few times for trying too hard to fill them.

          Raids should be perpetually full... always.

          If they're not full that means someone is missing out and in the long run it slows down the guild, progress, and content... ultimately the total fun factor. If you want a more specific explanation of this then search prior forum threads.

          As for "competition" for raids; I really believe it's a Myth. You cant honestly believe that having 5 out of 7 days as 40-man raids will result in too much competition. Fact is... we wont be able to do it currently unless we have 40-man rosters where you're required to go or you lose your spot. AND, of course this is against guild policy, as it should be.

          **The Paradox here is the fact that in order for TG to keep its "casual/fun" identity that we have to increase our size - if just slightly. OTHERWISE, we'll have to be exceptionally ANAL in order to really get anywhere.**

          Define Anal:
          1) raid rosters
          2) not listing where we go for raids
          3) CLs cracking the whip on rotations
          4) gkicks for perpetual no-shows
          5) unrealistic gear requirements
          6) interguild raids (i.e. guild mergers)
          7) exotic DKP bribes, etc.

          If some of you remember back in the day we were advised to not push the raid schedule too much because we knew that we wouldnt be able to field the raids and we'd end up wasting people's time. I remember Orion/Crebis himself mentioning this to me long ago.

          How all of a sudden has this changed?? answer: it hasnt... we still cant push the schedule.

          BWL, naxx,aq40, 2x20s, BC, etc. = pushing the schedule

          Edit:
          Anal fixation: TG was/is not an anal guild. Enacting all kinds of arbitrary rules, bribes, rosters, etc. goes completely against what/why we're here. TG used to be a place where if you were simply a Mature Gamer that expressed the tactical values and good-fun we liked you were basically "in-like-Flynn". Forums and TS were open. People were friendly, loose, and skilled. It was basically a weigh-station for everyone who liked to game with quality. Why is it that WoW should be any different??
          u dont get my point......... if we need more for naxx... that means we have GUILD PROGRESSION....................................... .....
          powered by Windows 7

          . . . .

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          • #20
            Re: What are you waiting for?

            Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post

            1) raid rosters
            2) not listing where we go for raids
            3) CLs cracking the whip on rotations
            4) gkicks for perpetual no-shows
            5) unrealistic gear requirements
            6) interguild raids (i.e. guild mergers)
            7) exotic DKP bribes, etc.
            so u are going to insult the guild by listing everything u hate about the guild.. adding a few other things to make it seem not s? and then call the list the definition of anal? wow..... thats all i gotta say is.. wow
            powered by Windows 7

            . . . .

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            • #21
              Re: What are you waiting for?

              Perhaps this can help or just be food for thought.

              An old guild I rolled with from Luci through to The Twin Emperors ((as a side note they are now ~66% through Naxx)) tried a flex schedule. What does that mean? Well i've read this thread through and see that your guild can achieve 40+ on 'certain' nights but not on 'other' nights.

              Our guild went through all of your growing pains. So one of the alterations we made to the raid schedule was as follows.

              Raid roster ~25-35 hit up MC -> down Luci, roster fills to 30-40, down Maggie, roster fills to 40 -> move to Razor & Vael.

              Partition MC such that when the guild roster hits 40 shift to BWL. "There will be a 40-man raid on xx/xx/2006. Bring your 'A'game."

              Good thing for the guild/raid leader is that since you aren't at AQ yet people won't whine about not knowing in advance where to park their toons for the next raid. MC & BWL entrances are a hop, skip and a jump away.

              Many other 'tactics' were implemented to 'work the raid roster' and make strong pushes on new boss content. Baby steps or radical ones now there's the high-wire balancing act.

              Wish you all were a Horde guild; i'd move over my Shaman and we'd rock on to Huhu.

              -Torr

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              • #22
                Re: What are you waiting for?

                Originally posted by Torr View Post
                Perhaps this can help or just be food for thought.

                An old guild I rolled with from Luci through to The Twin Emperors ((as a side note they are now ~66% through Naxx)) tried a flex schedule. What does that mean? Well i've read this thread through and see that your guild can achieve 40+ on 'certain' nights but not on 'other' nights.

                Our guild went through all of your growing pains. So one of the alterations we made to the raid schedule was as follows.

                Raid roster ~25-35 hit up MC -> down Luci, roster fills to 30-40, down Maggie, roster fills to 40 -> move to Razor & Vael.

                Partition MC such that when the guild roster hits 40 shift to BWL. "There will be a 40-man raid on xx/xx/2006. Bring your 'A'game."

                Good thing for the guild/raid leader is that since you aren't at AQ yet people won't whine about not knowing in advance where to park their toons for the next raid. MC & BWL entrances are a hop, skip and a jump away.

                Many other 'tactics' were implemented to 'work the raid roster' and make strong pushes on new boss content. Baby steps or radical ones now there's the high-wire balancing act.

                Wish you all were a Horde guild; i'd move over my Shaman and we'd rock on to Huhu.

                -Torr

                Apparently this is a natural guild progression. I just put up 3-4 raids last night listed as "Random 40" with the intent that none will know where we are going and we have the free motion to jump instances when we feel like it. Everyone please check the raid site...and "bring your 'A'-Game."...All must be attuned to Ony/BWL/MC.

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                • #23
                  Re: What are you waiting for?

                  Originally posted by Chair View Post
                  so u are going to insult the guild by listing everything u hate about the guild.. adding a few other things to make it seem not s? and then call the list the definition of anal? wow..... thats all i gotta say is.. wow
                  no no... lol

                  I think we both misunderstood eachother chair. I see what you meant now. Yah, Naxx would be great! But I still dont want to be yellin "we need more people".

                  as for my anal list:
                  That was a list of things we DONT do and shouldnt... they are overboard and not our style - hence the reason why there were items there you were confused about.

                  Granted, as Orion's post now says - we're gonna try not listing the raid location. That's the easiest solution to swallow out of that list IMO.

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                  • #24
                    Re: What are you waiting for?

                    Originally posted by orion808 View Post
                    Apparently this is a natural guild progression. I just put up 3-4 raids last night listed as "Random 40" with the intent that none will know where we are going and we have the free motion to jump instances when we feel like it. Everyone please check the raid site...and "bring your 'A'-Game."...All must be attuned to Ony/BWL/MC.
                    Interesting move.
                    But wouldnt this eventually create a problem with the wrong people being in certain raids? Whether over/under-geared or not? Lately a lot of people have been giving slots to people for MC so they can make the proper gear progression.

                    As well, those people who were locked out by Class Leaders due to gear now will potentially be in BWL. Although I believe the gear issue is somewhat out the window now.

                    Another point, many people wont want to take time out of their RL schedules to end up raiding ony/mc instead of BWL or vice versa. I know personally it's very hard to raid 2xMC and 2xBWL + ony and the occasional 20-man. So I, like others have been trying to focus on BWL for progression.

                    Example: Bear wouldnt have shifted his party plans for the usual MC run I'm sure.

                    My whole argument is moot of course if we mix instances like Torr suggested and guarantee a shot at BWL. It's also moot providing the guild stays small and somewhat Raid Rosterish as regardless of where we go in order to fill ANY raid we'll need everyone to show.

                    anyways, it's worth a shot i guess... we'll see- i'll try to be there whatever night I can.

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                    • #25
                      Re: What are you waiting for?

                      The initial intent is a test. Yes, there are issues that will arise. The purpose is to progress in BWL. Sign up on the days you are available. If progression in BWL is your only priority, you might be forgetting about having a good time with the guild no matter where we go or what we do.

                      In essence, I want people to help the guild, and not the guild help the people...just this once. We need to feed the machine for a week or 2, then we can check on all the parts.

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                      • #26
                        Re: What are you waiting for?

                        I am acting to insure that we have an adequate number of warriors for future raids by opening up the class. I'm seeking one additional warrior (for now). Referrals preferred. See the "Recruiting..." thread stickied in this forum.

                        To be clear, I like the warriors we have and will happily raid with any of them. We are down one with Kittywampus's departure for parts unknown, so I'm acting to replace him. Whether the class is "full" or not depends on attendance. We don't set minimum attendance requirements. Therefore, if raids have adequate warrior signups, we are "full". If not, we are recruiting. As of today, we are recruiting.
                        Beep


                        Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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                        • #27
                          Re: What are you waiting for?

                          Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
                          If DKP is really the issue (and if it is how pathetic) how about something a little radical?

                          All the DKP for MC will be "banked" for BWL and divided between the bosses killed. During an MC run players will be allowed to roll on loot under the standard terms and the DKP will be deducted from your toon. BUT, in order to earn it back you do that in BWL. If MC is worth 20 then 20 is split between the number of bosses killed in BWL.
                          If I am reading you right in that case it doesnt really change anything. All DKP does is determine an order for who has a chance to get an item when it drops. In your example the standard loot rules still apply so even if you dont make any DKP back in MC the order is still determined by an ever decreasing amount of DKP for each person. Same policy but slightly skews the zero-point setup like we have now. Least thats how I see it.

                          Now if you want radical you could set it up so instead of DKP for BWL you get pally rides. For example instead of riding your usual mount for the Windsor quest in Stormwind you could ride the back of a paladin right up to the castle while the paladin shouts 'Kneel mortals to the demonic might of Ladyabyss!'.

                          Now thats radical...

                          LA

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                          • #28
                            Re: What are you waiting for?

                            i think what he means.. is

                            Friday: kill all of MC... do not disperse DKP
                            Sat: kill raz/vael/broodlord..... the dkp from friday will be given to the people in this raid


                            im not saying it is a good idea... but clairifying it for those who dont know
                            powered by Windows 7

                            . . . .

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                            • #29
                              Re: What are you waiting for?

                              Originally posted by Chair View Post
                              i think what he means.. is

                              Friday: kill all of MC... do not disperse DKP
                              Sat: kill raz/vael/broodlord..... the dkp from friday will be given to the people in this raid


                              im not saying it is a good idea... but clairifying it for those who dont know
                              That would be unfair to those who went through MC.
                              Beep


                              Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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                              • #30
                                Re: What are you waiting for?

                                Something else some guilds do and i don't know for sure if this would fit your current dkp structure is give attempt dkp for every boss you haven't kill before, so if you are having an off night and can't get broodlord down, everyone will walk away with something in there minds, just a thought.
                                Thunderhorn:
                                70 Night Elf Priest-Lunaar(holy)
                                70 Human Mage-Alava(Fire)
                                70 Night Elf Hunter-Insai(Beast Master)
                                70 Dwarf Paladin-Ginoldor(Protection)
                                70 Human Warrior-Revenged(Protection)
                                70 Draenei Shaman-Tianora(Elemental)
                                70 Draenei Shaman-Fayrel(Restoration)
                                Gilneas:
                                50 Undead Priest-Eikyl(Shadow)

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